liveryadvice / any yo's out there?

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I have recently set up a small diy livery yard which is working well in general. However I am getting in a bit of a 'fix' about offering assistance.
Basically, for a daily nominal amount, I offer to check/feed/rug etc a clients horse for them if they cannot come up for any reason. However I have one livery in particular who is taking advantage of this and is only coming up at weekends and maybe 1 day in the week, so feel that I am giving her part livery for not much more than diy prices. Come winter I charge more for mucking out etc, but in the summer they are out 24/7, so although the horse is not creating a huge amount of extra work, I still feel that she is putting the responsibility for her horse onto me.
The client in question has not owned a horse on livery before, so has no concept of how different types of livery work, and has had a lot of private and health problems recently so can understand why she is struggling to come up to see to the horse, but equally feel that I am being taken for granted a little.
How would you tackle this and what would you charge?
Thanks
 
If she is only new to the livery yard system, chances are she doesn't realise that you feel like this. I would sit down and explain the difference and what her responsibilites are etc, and if you have to take over it will cost that bit extra. Agree that there should be a contract explaining this?
 
Yes - but the contract is only for 'diy' liveries as didn't really want any part or full. However assuming that the majority of clients are working and may need help at some end of the day, I have a price list up on the notice board for any assitance costs.
I think the problem is that I only charge £1 to feed /check etc - this liveries horse is in with mine so my view is that it doesn't create any more efort for me to feed all 3 at the same time. Also if I was asked to do this only once or twice a week, I still would be fine with it, but for example this week she said she won't be coming up until Fri, so have been left to look after the horse until then, for what is realistically only £1 a day, which I don't think is on.
Or am I being unfair?
 
I think you simply need to set your prices accordingly.

Prices for us for assistance break down as:

Full Livery £10.00 per day.
Turn out / in (including rug change) £2.00
Horse check in field £2.00 (including rug change)
Feed (as in bring in from the field, feed it and chuck it out) £5

Charge for everything essentially.
 
Well, you kind of put yourself in this situation... You should have put such a price on your additional service as to be happy to do it. I mean, what is there to complain about? Extra work equals extra money, just seems to me that you haven't got the pricing right for you ;)
 
Ok - tricky one as you don't want to upset client, and as you are aware she has problems elsewhere. BUT you are a business first and foremost NOT a charity for lame ducks (harsh but true ) First what does it state in your contract - do you have a set of rules outlining opening times and responsiblities for the different liveries available - if not think about changing it asap ! A quiet chat with said owner would be my first port of call - outline that she has a responsibilty for the care of her horse and if she feels she cannot make twice daily visits then could you offer an upgraded livery to part livery 5 day - she can do weekends and you'll do Mon-Fri. (My 5 day livery basic charge is £85pw- includes daily care, muck out etc , basic hard feed up to 25Kg of hay / haylage per day - (this I changed recently due to costs of good hay this year and last year people taking the mickey using tons of hay and throwing most away !) use of facilities , areans, horsewalker, XC and SJ - charge extra for Mucking out etc on DIY days roughly £12.50 per day depending on requirements ! )

If this fails then a written letter outlining your requirements and charges and livery charges available and a suitable time limit to settle the problem, if this doesn't work then to be honest I would terminate the livery as this client will cost you money and each and every stable has to turn over and produce a profit of X amount each month, It is as you already feel, not fair on the other liveries and they will expect the same treatment and then your business will suffer. Unfortunatly you have to have your business head on first with compassion of course not. but not your ' I'm a mug' head on !!!

good luck
 
I agree with you Martlin - it is my fault for not thinking the charges through properly. So what would you see fair as a daily charge for looking after the horse, bearing in mind seasonal variations, or would you go with what Amymay is suggesting?
I obviously need to re-issue assistance charges and hopefully then all parties will be happy (well maybe not the liveries?!).

Also, re abina's point, do any of you that have horses on livery contracts that stipulate how often a client is expected to attend to their horse? My contract doesn't, as just assumed clients would be up on a daily basis as the seasons dictated?
 
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I don't do DIY livery, but on my 5 day part, the weekend charges are as follows (please, bear in mind that hard feed is served anyway 7 days a week, so no extra for that)
bring in/turn out £1.50 each
rug change £0.50
muck out am £3.00
skip out pm £1.50
haynets £0.50 each
Water buckets sorted £1.00

So, if the client decides not to come one day, they get charged £8 extra on their bill.
If they let me know in advance, it's £14 for weekend.

I charge separately for any sort of grooming and exercise.
 
Sidney said:
Yes - but the contract is only for 'diy' liveries as didn't really want any part or full. However assuming that the majority of clients are working and may need help at some end of the day, I have a price list up on the notice board for any assitance costs.
I think the problem is that I only charge £1 to feed /check etc - this liveries horse is in with mine so my view is that it doesn't create any more efort for me to feed all 3 at the same time. Also if I was asked to do this only once or twice a week, I still would be fine with it, but for example this week she said she won't be coming up until Fri, so have been left to look after the horse until then, for what is realistically only £1 a day, which I don't think is on.
Or am I being unfair?
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Pricing seems to be your failing and to be honest this is where most people fail when thinking - Oh I'll do a few liveries ! EVERYTHING COSTS !!
You have to cover your insurance costs, rates, buiness costs, and make a profit - this is not a swear word !!

Sit down and really work out your costs and I mean everything to repairing gates, catches, the loo handle, rubbish removal, to fertilizers, mobile phone costs and the obvious - water, electric and even tea bags and loo roll !!! the work out what you want to work for an hour - remember you have to pay tax, NI etc pension schemes etc etc etc - then split it down to an hourly rate - this is where you will now be scared !! Then from your hourly rate break it down into 10 mins slots - Next time, yourself how long does it really take to check a horse properly, change rugs, adjust rugs, feed , muck out etc and put into 10 minute segments.
Then this will be easier to work out costs.

If your clever Excel is brilliant for this !

and always err on the side of caution as certain horses will take longer as they are young / nervous/ or just plain naughty !

If you think - Cripes people won't pay that then you have to look at your costs and see where you can cut / source cheaper. If you still think - cripes then think if the business is viable - Loads to think about and a steep learning curve - but you will learn and mistakes will be made but when it comes down to it it's a lovely business to be in - I've been here now 35yrs ! and still love it !!



Edited : just read your post Re: Visting times etc - my contract states the opening hours of the yard - I live here and really do not want people hanging around too late in the evening as I like a life too ! The contract also states that DIY liveries should be up twice daily to attend to their horse seven day a week, 52 weeks per year. The morning visit should be between 5.30am and 9am and evening visit from 4pm - 9.30pm ample time for most -if not I will do and charge the extra. Each horse must have the basic cares attended to daily - cleaned stable, fibre and feed according to work load and temperment, clean fresh water, and a through check over and attending to any minor injuries / health issues or a vet called to all other injuries / problems.

My contract is seven pages long - covers all aspect of yard life from horses to radios, dogs and school rules etc etc etc - long but covers everything - everyone knows where we all stand and peace is normally reigns !
 
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When doing all your costs and prepping for talking to your livery - worth while finding out what actual part livery is in your area..

All I can say, is £1 a day for feed and checking? wish you were near me!
 
Abina - thanks for your words of encouragement, and you mean to say you can actually make a profit out of it?!!!
I have a basic list of costings such as insurances etc, but will go into these in more depth. As the business is new I have also invested a lot of money into fencing and menage surface etc, and have just accepted that these costs will not be recuperable, but essential to get clients in the first place.
The 10 minute segment idea is fab and will follow your advice on that too.
 
Sidney said:
Abina - thanks for your words of encouragement, and you mean to say you can actually make a profit out of it?!!!
I have a basic list of costings such as insurances etc, but will go into these in more depth. As the business is new I have also invested a lot of money into fencing and menage surface etc, and have just accepted that these costs will not be recuperable, but essential to get clients in the first place.
The 10 minute segment idea is fab and will follow your advice on that too.
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As you have stated that you have invested obviously many £ to get your business started these cost have to be gained back - these are classed as long term investments but never the less needs paying back - either to yourself - (classed as capital investment or capital introduced ) or the interest payments covered plus any tax incurred by capital introduced to the business. - This where a good accountant will save you money !

and Yes you can make a living - you'll never be a millionaire granted - but just have a note pinned to your computer - THIS IS MY BUSINESS NOT JUST A LOVE !
 
Thanks for your reply Luci07. There are only very basic DIY or expensive full livery yards around here, but will try to get ideas on part pricings further afield.
Your are more than welcome to join us here, fab hacking around the beautiful Shropshire hills, but don't think the £1 a day will apply for much longer!
 
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Sidney said:
Thanks for your reply Luci07. There are only very basic DIY or expensive full livery yards around here, but will try to get ideas on part pricings further afield.
Your are more than welcome to join us here, fab hacking around the beautiful Shropshire hills, but don't think the £1 a day will apply for much longer!

Abina - Will look into the contract and add what I expect from clients. Do you expect clients to check the horses twice a day in the summer too?
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Checking summer - twice a day too - it's a long time from 8am check to the next check at 8am the next day - loads can happen inbetween ! If they don't want to come back up in the evening then they book me out - at a cost ;--)

Of course I always check eveything is fine (probaly three times a day ) and before I close up but it is their horse and their responsibilty and they are DIY by choice - all part and parcel of having a horse ! Things that people need to think about before they go into horse ownership - if they can't manage the time - then pay for livery or stick with weekly lessons !
 
Currently moved to DIY grass livery, but most recent yard, a 60 horse yard, charged on top of DIY price;
£1.75 to pop breakfast in, rug, turn out. (or same in evening)
£4 for above plus muck out.
£7 for daily full livery.
YO's would deal with an immediate emergency appropriately and call owner for no charge. ie, minor first aid, remove to a safe place (stable).
All horses checked regularly- but owners were expected to check their horses once daily or arrange for fellow livery to do so as a minimium requirement unless YO's were asked to do full livery during owners absence.
 
YO's would deal with an immediate emergency appropriately and call owner for no charge. ie, minor first aid, remove to a safe place (stable).
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This is a very important point. And I would class this as a minimum requirement that I would expect from my YO. I would not expect to be charged.

All horses checked regularly- but owners were expected to check their horses once daily or arrange for fellow livery to do so as a minimium requirement unless YO's were asked to do full livery during owners absence.
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This - also. I usually go up twice a day in the summer, however I know that all the fields are checked throughout the day as routine by the YO to ensure happy, healthy horses.
 
abina said:
Checking summer - twice a day too - it's a long time from 8am check to the next check at 8am the next day - loads can happen inbetween ! If they don't want to come back up in the evening then they book me out - at a cost ;--)

Of course I always check eveything is fine (probaly three times a day ) and before I close up but it is their horse and their responsibilty and they are DIY by choice - all part and parcel of having a horse ! Things that people need to think about before they go into horse ownership - if they can't manage the time - then pay for livery or stick with weekly lessons !
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I've never come across a DIY yard with that requirement. Usually fellow liveries or YO would call an owner if something untoward happened. Most owners would normally come down once daily unless weather variations or illness or feeding etc dictated otherwise, when out 24/7. Other owners are around at different times and all help each other out.

Appreciate wat you say about not having people around the yard at certain times, but that would not be acceptable to me as a client.
 
for charging rather than ten minute chunks you find find it easier to charge as many professionals do on a tenth of an hour basis.

This works out as ten six minute units but will make the maths easier than six ten minute units! So £5 per hour, makes 50p per six minute unit.
 
Communication is the key:)

It's all very well having 7 page agreements (mine is 3) and endless lists on notice boards, but the best way of resolving any potential misunderstandings is to talk to each other:)

Your client probably doesn't realise that she is doing anything wrong, because she is paying the £1 a day that you stipulate, and would probably be horrified to hear that you are feeling taken for granted.
 
I'm sure she would which is why I haven't tackled the situation yet - as you rightly said I set the charges so she isn't in the wrong! When the client first arrived the help required was so minimal, maybe feeding in the mornings 2 days a week max, with her coming up every evening, which was why I set such a small charge. Unfortunately because of her situation, the days she needs help have gradually increased, but I haven't increased the charges, hence it has got to this stage.

As abina has rightly said, I need to look closer at my figures and work out my 'hourly' worth before breaking the charges down. I will then speak to her and either suggest the horse goes on a m-f part livery, or increase my charges to reflect what I help her with, with anything agreed put in writing.

Thanks for the 'reality check' guys!
 
Originally Posted by abina View Post
Checking summer - twice a day too - it's a long time from 8am check to the next check at 8am the next day - loads can happen inbetween ! If they don't want to come back up in the evening then they book me out - at a cost ;--)

Of course I always check eveything is fine (probaly three times a day ) and before I close up but it is their horse and their responsibilty and they are DIY by choice - all part and parcel of having a horse ! Things that people need to think about before they go into horse ownership - if they can't manage the time - then pay for livery or stick with weekly lessons !

horserider said:
I've never come across a DIY yard with that requirement. Usually fellow liveries or YO would call an owner if something untoward happened. Most owners would normally come down once daily unless weather variations or illness or feeding etc dictated otherwise, when out 24/7. Other owners are around at different times and all help each other out.

Appreciate wat you say about not having people around the yard at certain times, but that would not be acceptable to me as a client.
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See I wish more yards would have a rule like that.Our yard can be really bad for folk just ignoring their horse and other liveries contacting YO when something goes wrong ie horse lame/ill.
Its ok if you have an agreement with fellow liveries to check on your horse but some folk either pressume someone else will bother checking and tell them if something wrong or they don't give a sh** if horse is ok.These latter 2 groups really shouldn't own a horse.Most people I know would not leave a ill or lame horse to its fate despite owner.
Yard times are probably something that would put me off but tbh would depend on times.I just wouldn't be at that yard tho I do understand how much of a pain it could be as have seen me leave our yard after 10pm on occasion-not riding too busy yapping lol
 
horserider said:
I've never come across a DIY yard with that requirement. Usually fellow liveries or YO would call an owner if something untoward happened. Most owners would normally come down once daily unless weather variations or illness or feeding etc dictated otherwise, when out 24/7. Other owners are around at different times and all help each other out.

Appreciate wat you say about not having people around the yard at certain times, but that would not be acceptable to me as a client.
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Of course I check all the horses - probably a minimum of three times a day and of course call owner / vet if required but I do expect people to look after their own horses and take on that responsibility. You say MOST owners would come down to check their horses - believe me you maybe a perfect owner - many are not - This rule was implemented about 15yrs ago as one girl had her horse with me and every Friday / Saturday thought it was ok to go out and get lashed and not bother with her stabled and clipped horse till 2pm plus in the afternoon with no booking for assistance/ phone call or other family cover,no muckng out done , no haynet, no breakfast and no water - I did the horse of course but she refused to pay so it was bye bye and another lesson learnt - If people ill / diaster happens / car breaks down etc etc etc - just get some one to call or pick the phone up !

As for times my yard opening hours are 5.30am - 10pm - after that I want some peace - also my house and garden is in the middle of the yard so in the summer when I am entertaining family and freinds I would like a bit of privacy and some times it's nice just to have some peace - I have been here at my yard for 35yrs and nobody has complained yet ! infact most clients respect it and apologies are very often left if some one was here late. If some one is at a comp then the gate key is provded so they don't have to panic if late back from a show - works for us lot and I have 20 liveries !
 
Rowreach said:
Communication is the key:)

It's all very well having 7 page agreements (mine is 3) and endless lists on notice boards, but the best way of resolving any potential misunderstandings is to talk to each other:)

Your client probably doesn't realise that she is doing anything wrong, because she is paying the £1 a day that you stipulate, and would probably be horrified to hear that you are feeling taken for granted.
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Yes commication is the key and trust - agreements are required for protection of the yard owner and the clienet and if everything is listed and people know from the start they can decide if they can live by the house rules or not - it's a pain for everyone when you have to keep moving the goal posts. Maybe I'm lucky as my newest livery has been here 5 yrs and the oldest has been here for 21yrs - we talk and talk and talk ! and I have a waiting list.

The other thing is I don't have a notice board - too impersonal - diary in office for requests and reminders everything else spoken or if needed backed up with a memo popped in with the invoices. ( mine you haven't done that for a good few years !)
 
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