Livid with police tonight

I always understood that flashing lights were to be used with caution, round here the big lorries which collect rubbish seem to have lights on just driving along a road, not stopping or anything, also concrete mixers, the can be pretttty scary too, should they not stop revolving when in transit.
I have occasionally been overtaken by a whole procession of police cars en route to an incident, they can't all be attending totally critical injuries.
 
brighthair said:
because drivers still don't move over?? I had a ambulance RRV come up behind me, blue lights and sirens, spotted it, pulled right over. Car in front of me - totally oblivious and blocking the road
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You're absolutely correct of course. The police car with one blue light and a bell was a Morris Minor circa 1967 with a top speed of 62mph. It would not have been able to keep up with the traffic, let alone pass.
But it probably wouldn't have frightened the horses which is what upset the OP originally.
I should have made it clearer that my post was tongue-in-cheek ;)
 
When my friends daughter had a nasty fall & was lying grey faced & in agony I would have been quite happy for them to come right up with sirens, lights & all going.
 
Amaranta said:
Agree utterly and totally with Bosworth.

The trouble with some horse people is that they think they have priority over everything on the roads, those who quoted 'probably late for a tea break' just make themselves look like the arrogant fools they probably are.

I am not a member of the emergency services and have no idea what their policy is on passing horses with sirens etc, but would totally understand that there would be times when it is not possible to turn them off.

Nation of whingers!
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My tongue was firmly in cheek with my comment (Though I know ex-police, and this has happened! I'm going back a few years though.)
Nation of whingers indeed!

When I was hit by a car it took the police bloody ages to turn up, maybe they'd turned their lights and siren off. Can't fault the ambulance services though!
 
I would presume that the police didn't see the horses because of the car that was behind them.
 
My beef with horsey people is that they honestly do think they have priority over everything else in the whole world, all of the time, regardless.

Ever occur to you that the police may have been speeding to the scene of some slack arse rider who wasn't in control of their horse and caused another serious road accident...?
I'm sorry, but if you go out on the road with your horse, you must accept that other road users are perfectly legal to drive at the speed limit, and emergency services may pass you on the way to an accident, going over that speed limit.
If your horse doesn't like fast moving vehicles, or flashing lights, it shouldn't be on the road, for your safety, for your horse's safety, and for every other road user in the world that doesn't expect an out of control horse to disrupt their journey.
Just because you have a right to be on the road, doesn't make it a sensible place to be. Just because legally you can ride anywhere on your side of the road, doesn't make it sensible to ride in the middle.
Honestly, if I didn't have horses I would loathe horsey people's attitudes to road use...
Just saying ;)
 
Surely any emergency service driver has a duty of care to all road users? If they cause an accident/inident while responding to a call, then they are at fault, that is why they are called to account if they are involved in RTC's while responding. Have to agree with the poster many posts back who said to make the complaint, if it is genuine it will be followed up, if not then no harm done.
 
JoG said:
Has it occurred to anyone that maybe they were going somewhere really important?? Like a serious accident or assault?? Or someone in danger of their life??
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Of course, but surely the trick is NOT to cause another accident while on your way to save a life? :confused:
I remember reading in the papers about a fire engine being driven through a herd of cows on a country lane when it was on it's way to try and cut a child out of a car wreck. The driver was so desperate to get to the scene of the accident and help the child that he wouldn't wait for the farmer and his son to move the cows (which were already there, it wasn't like they'd pulled out in front of him deliberately). As a result, the herd of cows panicked and stampeded, and the farmer was trampled to death :(
I really appreciate the job the emergency services do, but they need to be aware of livestock and horseriders (and this should really be covered in training) so that they can concentrate on saving people rather than causing more accidents.
In this case, of course, the driver may not have seen the horse. But I still think they should have slowed down when passing the other car, which had obviously stopped for something even if they couldn't see what.
 
They possibly thought the other car had stopped for them?
All's well that ends well Op. I wouldn't be contacting the police to complain.
 
HashRouge said:
Of course, but surely the trick is NOT to cause another accident while on your way to save a life? :confused:
I remember reading in the papers about a fire engine being driven through a herd of cows on a country lane when it was on it's way to try and cut a child out of a car wreck. The driver was so desperate to get to the scene of the accident and help the child that he wouldn't wait for the farmer and his son to move the cows (which were already there, it wasn't like they'd pulled out in front of him deliberately). As a result, the herd of cows panicked and stampeded, and the farmer was trampled to death :(
I really appreciate the job the emergency services do, but they need to be aware of livestock and horseriders (and this should really be covered in training) so that they can concentrate on saving people rather than causing more accidents.
In this case, of course, the driver may not have seen the horse. But I still think they should have slowed down when passing the other car, which had obviously stopped for something even if they couldn't see what.
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Your comments have already been covered in all the other posts.....you assume that the Police car knew that the car had slowed down for a different hazard and therefore they should have also slowed. Is it not possible that the horse was out of sightin front of the car so the Police didn't see it?? Should they slow down when they pass every car that has pulled over just in case there is a horse in front of it?

And iirc the cattle incident occured as the engine came up behind the cows with just lights on, then put the siren on causing the stampede. I thought the issue here was more that the nasty scary flashy lights might (but didn't) upset the horse..... :rolleyes:
 
YorksG said:
Surely any emergency service driver has a duty of care to all road users? If they cause an accident/inident while responding to a call, then they are at fault, that is why they are called to account if they are involved in RTC's while responding.
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But you could argue that it isn't them who caused the accident, rather the horserider who didn't have his/her horse under control or properly trained to deal with this situation. The blame culture works both ways.
 
I would hope that the ES would have the common sense to turn the siren off (not lights) if they saw a horse on the road.

If the OP's ES did not see the horse then so be it - but they have a duty of care to other road users and are still accountable for their decisions and driving ability when attending an emergency.

Any ES person who says that they shouldn't is quite frankly an arrogant idiot and should have their driving licence and their livelihood taken away from them immediately.
 
Can I add a short reply to this thread, after reading it open mouthed and rather shocked at many assumptions made.

EMV Drivers are highly trained and re-checked frequently in all the 999 services. As part of the legislation in force in this country (England) any driver involved in the use of Blue light response MUST by law undergo advanced training - known as High Speed Advanced Training.

The first and overall rule involving the situation described in the OP, is the same as it is with ALL situations the driver approaches.
That is to MINIMISE risk to all other road users and cause no further risk by our actions.
The vehicle driver is fully responsible for one's own actions and must be able to justify said actions in a court of law if required.

Regardless of the nature of the response or incident(s) responding too - if a Blue light driver is involved in the scene of any accident, the driver has to stop and suspend the original response.
Therefore it's imperative that none of us cause an accident by our use of EWS, as that accident will cause further delay to the incident response.

None of us are above the law, although from reading this post I would suggest that some of us may require a little further training as they seem to be displaying evidence of the response drivers red mist setting in.

Approaching any horse and rider/handler on the road should be met with cancellation of the audible sirens/horn if the circumstances allow that to be actioned safely. And as long as the driver is acting according to the training, then there should ALWAYS be enough time to cancel the sirens safely.
If a driver is on here stating that they don't have time to cancel the sirens - then maybe the speed of response is just a little out of control??

OP
Do you report the matter? IMO yes you should raise it to the attention of your local force public assistance desk who will then pass on the knowledge.
Sometimes this can mean a talking too for the driver, other times it can mean a risk assesment of the highway involved. BUT it is ALWAYS worth getting in contact no matter what service is involved.

JoG I held some respect until you started to describe what I consider red mist in your response. There is no more importance given to medical response than that given to the other services. The cat target times do not allow a driver to consider the response to be more acceptable and more important regardless of the incident call.

Road use is all about mutual respect of all road users, regardless of why we are using the road. Riders have as much right to be there as the EMV drivers.
We are ALL responsible for acting within the rules of the road, and for making allowances with each other.
For the other poster - we DO NOT speed up to go through red lights, we SLOW RIGHT DOWN to a max of 10 mph and cross a red light at our own risk. If the driver gets it wrong and it goes pete tong, the driver is held to task and suffers the punishment, to claim an exemption puts the driver at risk each and every single time without question.

Drive safe, ride safe, keep safe. Let's be curteous to all other road users and have respect for what each of us do.
 
But the point I was trying to make is that the OP assumes that the horse was seen - and how can you make that assumption? It is nothing to do with "red mist" it is to do with the fact that you can not be guaranteed to see every single hazard on every single road regardless of whether you are on a call or not. Which is why anyone walking/riding/cycling ont he road is encouraged to use hi-viz.....be safe, BE SEEN

If you can be seen then lights/sirens can be turned off if safe to do so :rolleyes:
 
Ummm....and I have never had my driving "re-checked" for the ambulance service, and I'm pretty sure my qualification is ICHD driver training and not High speed advanced training....I know the Police go through that but I also know their training is very different from ours :o
 
Jog
Your driving standard is that of IHCD level D1 and D2 providing you did the full residential course.
Your driving should be re-checked every 3 years without fail, at which point you will be provided with further driver updates on the legislation and a new observed drive will take place.
As of Jan 2012 the law changes and the re checks become far more stringent.

My comment of the red mist situation relates to your references about the need to get there quicker.
And to advise, your D2 (section 3a) covered the High Speed Training section, in future this will be seperated moved to a new 3 week course on it's own, for ALL service drivers to undertake.
 
Thank you blue rider. The responses by the driver who has not had their driving re-assessed worries me a little. I am required by law to have my practice assessed every five years (AMHP) If I do not submit work for assessment, including observed practice, then my warrant will be revoked and it would be illegal for me to continue to practice. I would have thought it would be illegal for an emergency service driver to continue to drive a response vehicle if they had not had the necessary re-assessment.
My response to the person who cited the 'blame culture', is that if a driver is adhereing to the speed limits etc, my horse will not have a problem, however emergency service drivers are likely to be driving in excess of those speeds, they do have a duty of care to other road users, which fortunately the vast majority of them recognize and act accordingly.
 
Not personally come across an issue with the police yet, but as they like to drive round here on "exercises" on country roads at speeds that have their cars lifting off the tarmac and killing pensioners in their cars, I would doubt a horse and those consequences would much bother them.

The only experience we have had is with the fire service and being out in the wagon and every time they have killed the siren when they have spotted us just leaving lights on until they are further up the road.
 
JoG said:
Has it occurred to anyone that maybe they were going somewhere really important?? Like a serious accident or assault?? Or someone in danger of their life??

But of course, us people who work for the emergency services only ever put effort in because "we're going home for our tea"...it is VERY stressful driving under blue lights, and suprisingly - WE'RE ONLY HUMAN TOO!!! :rolleyes: :mad:
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Oh but if people thought about it like this they would miss a very good opportunity to slag off the emergency services!!! God forbid!! ;)
 
TheEquineOak said:
I find this REALLY offensive

I watched a single policeman (first on the scene) pull a dead man out of a car last week in the crash that closed the a1. Not only did he have to deal with the horror in front of him he had to console the survivors of the crash, calm the hysteria and divert traffic. All by himself.

In the line of duty? Maybe so, would I care if he used his sirens to get back to the office quicker at home time? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
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This, I also watched my husband dealing with a car accident we came upon, he was off duty but he and an off duty paramedic proceeded to do first aid on an unconcious 3 year old while waiting for the emergency services.....oh but don't worry...he still got his tea break FFS!!!!!!
 
I lost my horse when she backed down a ditch an fell when she spooked at ambulance and police sirens, an apology and some flowers is what I got for the loss of my beautiful mare. Everybody thought I should complain.. No I shouldn't have (and didn't) because that day they put me and my horse in danger they saved a little boys life who had been in a car accident; yes I was in pieces and wish they'd have turned sirens off but in all fairness visibility was poor and they didn't see me until it was too late, I do think I should have done more to get myself and horse away from the danger but in no way do I blame the emergency services for speeding past me, there duty if care was to that little boy.
 
Orange Peel. said:
I lost my horse when she backed down a ditch an fell when she spooked at ambulance and police sirens, an apology and some flowers is what I got for the loss of my beautiful mare. Everybody thought I should complain.. No I shouldn't have (and didn't) because that day they put me and my horse in danger they saved a little boys life who had been in a car accident; yes I was in pieces and wish they'd have turned sirens off but in all fairness visibility was poor and they didn't see me until it was too late, I do think I should have done more to get myself and horse away from the danger but in no way do I blame the emergency services for speeding past me, there duty if care was to that little boy.
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What a selfless way to look at it. I'm so sorry you lost your horse. The world would be a much better place with more people like you.
 
I wonder what peoples answers whould be if they weren't with the horses but the ones bleeding heavily - caught in the fire - being held at gun point - would you not then be annoyed that they had taken there time to get there???? A few seconds could be someones live.

Not saying that it wouldn't be better to have everyone slow right down and pass wide and slow, i'd not be happy either but in the same breathe if i was the one waiting for the ambulance/police/fire engine, then maybe i'd want them to hurry the **** up!!!

What is right? what is wrong?....don't think anyone can say really as i'm sure your mind would change depending on the situation you are in... and those who now say oh i'd rather they got there two minutes late and didn't take any calculated risks at all, clearly never been in fear of thier lives or are plain lying.
 
None of us wants to cause an accident on the way to a 999 call !!!

But please bear in mind we are human and if we get a call to say a baby is not breathing we will be pulling all the stops out to get there as fast as is safe to do so


My own view is that the driver did NOT see the horse, and thought the car had slowed down because it heard the sirens. By the time he saw the horse it was too late to turn everything off.

There would have been a LOT of decisions to make in a very short space of time just about the horse, never mind other road users and where you were going

As JoG said I have to take my hand off the steering wheel, then look at a panel for the correct button to turn the lights off. Also as Jo said the sirens work on the horn pressing it turns them off or changes the siren, I might worry that if I press and it changes rather than goes off is it more likely to spook the horse by suddenly changing the sound???


We all know there are exceptions to everything AND us blue light drivers are open to the same human error as everyone else but we will take as much care as we can possibly do so.

Just so you know due to current law and policy

We are more likely to get in trouble if we are travelling to an incident and are involved in an accident and don't have blues & twos on even if the road is seen to be clear

We CANNOT use blues without a 999 call, we could end up in jail !!!

We will not deliberately take risks of any sort it is just not worth it

The reason myself and friends no longer pull out 'extra' stops to help people is all this complain complain and sue them attitude.



When I did my blue light training I specifically asked about what the policy was with regards to horses/riders on the road. 'Same as highway code' HOWEVER you must take into account the whole picture, can you safely turn off blues & two's? Because of the speed and position of horse and rider is it safer just to go past as quickly as possible? Just some of the things to consider

I have driven up behind riders on a bend where there is a huge grass verge on the left side, I had come up with sirens on, seen them and turned them off, riders made NO attempt to move onto verge so I could get past :mad: I had to flash lights several times when they eventually slowly and grudgingly got on the verge. It made me ashamed to be a horse owner especially as I know the verge and know it is safe to ride on!
As a blue light driver not a horse owner would you like me to put every owner/rider in the same category ?



JoG said:
Has it occurred to anyone that maybe they were going somewhere really important?? Like a serious accident or assault?? Or someone in danger of their life??

But of course, us people who work for the emergency services only ever put effort in because "we're going home for our tea"...it is VERY stressful driving under blue lights, and suprisingly - WE'RE ONLY HUMAN TOO!!! :rolleyes: :mad:
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Echo this

JoG said:
In terms of saying "it's a thankless job" I don't mean I expect everyone to say "wow you're great thanks" I mean it is SO hard to get on with what I'm there to do - help sick/injured people. When we're completely governed by times and how fast we do things. You have 8minutes to get to a cardiac arrest - if you get there in 10minutes but save the person then you have failed...WTF?? If your rushing to that emergency and you upset a dear ponio that was not clearly visible then people make a formal complaint about you :(

We're just humans trying to do a job - and yep, occassionally we may not see you and you may see flashing lights and sirens....it isn't a deliberate attempt to scare your horse or cause an accident. It was just a mistake..... :o
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Also Echo

Kenzo said:
I can see your point but should I have been in a car they would of hit me because they came over the lines or a pedestrian their side (no path) they may of ran them over too, my beef with my situation is, with no siren going how would anyone of known they were about to fly round a blind bend and coming through the village.
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You cannot say that!!! As a highly trained driver he had most likely seen the road to be clear through hedges?fencing etc Just because you would not have been able to do this please don't judge someone else
 
soulfull said:
I have driven up behind riders on a bend where there is a huge grass verge on the left side, I had come up with sirens on, seen them and turned them off, riders made NO attempt to move onto verge so I could get past :mad: I had to flash lights several times when they eventually slowly and grudgingly got on the verge. It made me ashamed to be a horse owner especially as I know the verge and know it is safe to ride on!
As a blue light driver not a horse owner would you like me to put every owner/rider in the same category ?
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That is appalling behaviour on the part of the horse riders. :(
 
assuan said:
Lovely weather again today! :D
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LOL, yes it is and I feel no one on either side will back down or change their opinions so this thread could go one forever!.
Hats off to the lady who didn't blame the emergency services for spooking her mare which died as a result, selfless, caring lady, wish there was more out there like you, Oz :)
 
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