Loading problems not so solved :L

[AengusOg]

In my experience, for what it's worth, horses learn to rear in response to bad handling whilst loading. The handler brings the horse to the ramp, gets frustrated when horse declines to load, gets into a tug of war with the horse, and the horse rears in response to handler's attempts to force it onto the box.

Horses which have learned to use rearing as an evasion have to be persuaded to load, not punished for rearing.

OP, I see you are in central Scotland. I am in Angus. Pm me if you'd like me to come and help you.

 

[Mike007]

In my experience, for what it's worth, horses learn to rear in response to bad handling whilst loading. The handler brings the horse to the ramp, gets frustrated when horse declines to load, gets into a tug of war with the horse, and the horse rears in response to handler's attempts to force it onto the box.

Horses which have learned to use rearing as an evasion have to be persuaded to load, not punished for rearing.

OP, I see you are in central Scotland. I am in Angus. Pm me if you'd like me to come and help you.

I would agree ,up to a point. Rearing is more than just an evasion .It is an attempt by the horse to exert dominance over the situation/handler. I do not advocate "punnishing" the horse for rearing. Let him rear ,the more the better,but each time he must find himself back in the same spot with the same choice of accepting the dominance of the handler or continuing to fight. There is a vast difference betwean beating a horse and beating a horse at its own game!

 

[AengusOg]

I would agree ,up to a point. Rearing is more than just an evasion .It is an attempt by the horse to exert dominance over the situation/handler. I do not advocate "punnishing" the horse for rearing. Let him rear ,the more the better,but each time he must find himself back in the same spot with the same choice of accepting the dominance of the handler or continuing to fight. There is a vast difference betwean beating a horse and beating a horse at its own game!

I can't agree with any method which relies on dominating a horse to give it a choice between further fight and submission. I don't fight with horses, and I'm always looking for ways to persuade them to give the desired response because they want to.

I acknowledge that some horses will attempt to intimidate people, by rearing at them, even whilst loose in the field, or in a stable, but we are discussing loading isses here, where horses are generally physically linked to the handler by a rope. Hopefully, by the time the loading is addressed, the horse will have been taught that any attempts to intimidate the handler will not be tolerated.

In my experience, horses which rear 'to exert dominance over the situation/handler', in a loading situation, are horses which have been handled badly, by people who do fight horses, and have no other avenue open to them. Horses are not naturally aggressive to humans, but when the human puts them in a position where they are afraid and restrained, with no chance of flight and no let up from the situation, horses will exhibit defensive aggression in some cases.

There is a difference between that and a horse which rears and tries to get away, and this is how most horses learn to use rearing as an evasion. The horse finds itself in a situation where it attempts to get away from the frighting stimulus, and the handler attempts to stop it. The horse then reacts to the restraint, and a rearer is made.

I agree that the horse must be kept focussed on the trailer, and that all his rearing must come to nothing in that he still has to load once he has got it out of his system. That is how his persuaded to desist from rearing and choose to load.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say the handler must keep provoking the rear. Is that how you get them to rear eighty times?!

Foxhunter, I try to keep horses as calm as possible during the loading process. I don't believe in hard and fast correction, as that usually involves pain, fear, and force. I do, however, have endless patience when loading horses, and take the view that the horse must be taught that he can trust me not to hurt or frighten him, and that he can be safe in the trailer.

 

[Ibblebibble]

once upon a time i may have agreed with Mike and foxhunter, it's how i was shown how to load awkward horses by those older and more knowledgable than me, if it wouldn't go in then pretty much anything was acceptable to make it comply
but from what i can remember none of those horses were ever happy loaders

ffwd to the new millennia and the day i went to collect my big girl, her owner tried walking her up the lorry ramp, big girl says no, so out came the lunge line which resulted in someone stood by the side of the ramp nearly getting kicked in the head, they tried buckets of water from behind, broom up the bum, lunge lines etc etc and big girl was just getting more and more pee'd off and throwing kicks and the odd rear to show it. then came a frantic phone call to the mares old sharer, she turned up with a dually, did some ground work with the mare for 10 mins, walked her towards the ramp, mare stopped, sharer backed her up sharpish, moved her about again and walked towards the ramp and big girl walked straight on! the quiet positive approach worked while the whips and lines and forceful approach just invoked a forceful reply from the horse.

i can see what Mike is trying to say about the rearing though, if they want to rear then let them, it's more tiring for them in the long run and if you still keep the quiet approach throughout their tantrum then they learn that rearing is not going to work.

 

[Mike007]

I can't agree with any method which relies on dominating a horse to give it a choice between further fight and submission. I don't fight with horses, and I'm always looking for ways to persuade them to give the desired response because they want to.

I acknowledge that some horses will attempt to intimidate people, by rearing at them, even whilst loose in the field, or in a stable, but we are discussing loading isses here, where horses are generally physically linked to the handler by a rope. Hopefully, by the time the loading is addressed, the horse will have been taught that any attempts to intimidate the handler will not be tolerated.

In my experience, horses which rear 'to exert dominance over the situation/handler', in a loading situation, are horses which have been handled badly, by people who do fight horses, and have no other avenue open to them. Horses are not naturally aggressive to humans, but when the human puts them in a position where they are afraid and restrained, with no chance of flight and no let up from the situation, horses will exhibit defensive aggression in some cases.

There is a difference between that and a horse which rears and tries to get away, and this is how most horses learn to use rearing as an evasion. The horse finds itself in a situation where it attempts to get away from the frighting stimulus, and the handler attempts to stop it. The horse then reacts to the restraint, and a rearer is made.

I agree that the horse must be kept focussed on the trailer, and that all his rearing must come to nothing in that he still has to load once he has got it out of his system. That is how his persuaded to desist from rearing and choose to load.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say the handler must keep provoking the rear. Is that how you get them to rear eighty times?!

Foxhunter, I try to keep horses as calm as possible during the loading process. I don't believe in hard and fast correction, as that usually involves pain, fear, and force. I do, however, have endless patience when loading horses, and take the view that the horse must be taught that he can trust me not to hurt or frighten him, and that he can be safe in the trailer.

As an example, I loaded one particular horse ,when after 3 hours the owners were faced with the prospect of their daughter riding the horse home from a sponsored ride in the dark.The horse was quite happy to simply plant himself at the foot of the ramp and ignore everyone. Any attempt to load was met with immediate rearing. I kept him at it mostly by a simple light tug on the rope to tell him to walk forward ,at no time was he allowed to return to his "planted at the foot of the ramp and ignore the world"stance.So he continued to try to intimidate , and found in the end that it was futile hard work and gave up.None of this required violence ,shouting or beating,but it was most definately a battle of wills.Yes I agree that endless patience is needed .But I dont mean patiently waiting till the horse decides to do somthing you want ,on HIS terms.I mean having the patience not to escalate the battle of wills into a battle with an agressor(the handler).Incidentaly I met the rider a year later and aparrently that particular horse became a well behaved loader from then on.

 

[AengusOg]

We're sort of singing from the same hymn sheet, Mike.

I agree that the horse must be allowed to get rearing out of his system before the loading process can begin, but I try to work to avoid rearing rather than provoke it. I suppose repeatedly presenting a horse, which has learned to rear in response to requests to load, to the ramp, could be construed as provocation, but, of course, it is necessary.

For me, the essence of it is that the horse must be persuaded that anything other than entering the box will be unacceptable, and he must gradually realise that all his previously-learned evasions will not get him off the hook.

I think many loading problems are created by lack of patience and ability to read the horse on the part of the handler.