Loan: am I being too "precious" as an owner?

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite

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Advice needed please. I'll try to explain briefly.

I offered my boy on loan as just couldn't give him the time and he desperately needed more work than I could give him.

So did a deal with a loanee to keep him on working livery at a big yard where he'd be used in their riding school as well as ridden by her. The deal being that she'd keep him at working livery as if he were "hers", i.e. she does him when she's there, provides all hard feed and pays for her share of the shoeing and vets bills etc; and they can also use him for lessons etc by mutual consent.

So we'd signed the loan agreement and everything was fine...... or so I thought, until over the weekend when I popped along to see him.

He has had sweet itch in the past; but when I sent him to this yard a fortnight ago you woulnd't have believed he'd got it as he had a lovely full mane - simply because I'd looked after it and always made sure he was covered up and/or had Killitch on.

When I saw him yesterday, I was gutted, he looked absolutely bl@ddy AWFUL. His tail is OK, BUT his mane is just all rubbed and raw. The reason given by the loanee - who, bless her, has been very conscientious about giving him his supplements and making sure that to her knowledge (here I emphasise) that he's always worn his sweet-itch turnout hoody, was that "another pony in the field has been nibbling at his mane". BUT there's no obvious damage to the hoody, which one would expect.

Anway, this morning, feeling very precious, I rang the YO and we talked about it. He reckons the mane damage is "old scars" and nothing new!!!! :( - NOT TRUE!! He was FINE when he went there a fortnight ago!!! I'm so bl@ddy angry about this, my poor horse's mane is all rubbed, red and sore, and if I went to a riding school and rode a horse in this state I'd seriously wonder what sort of set-up it was.

So, after discussing with said YO, he did begin to listen a bit after the initiall pooh poohing of saying the rubbing is only noticeable because he's recently been clipped (rubbish!). We both agree we are mystified by this as there's no damage to the rug which wouldn't be the case if another pony had chewed at his mane, which leads to the obvious conclusion that he's been turned out WITHOUT his hoody on which is how it might have happened, especially with the hot weather we've had.

The other issue is that the loanee has just bought a saddle for him and paid for it, apparently the YM at this yard says it fits but I don't think it does as just by looking you can see its very high up at the back and when you sit in it you feel you're tipping forward, so I'm concerned about this as well! Particularly as my horse has had back problems in the past caused by an ill fitting saddle.

Sooooo...... having just signed a loan agreement which lasts for a year, I'm very unhappy. I used the BHS standard loan agreement, however, reading through it I'm not sure it provides for a situation where the owner needs to remove the horse if he/she doesn't think its being properly looked after. I wish now that I'd stopped and thought to include that because I really like the girl that's got him and he likes her and is going brilliantly for her, and I don't want to do anything awful like take him away. But the only reason I chose this yard over another one which would have been much nearer home was because its high up and therefore better for his sweet itch in the first place!

So - thanks to anyone who's got this far - wine & chocs! BUT I'm asking myself (and you the punters!) the question..... am I being too precious here? What would others of you with horses on loan do about this situation? (there's a big part of me that just wants to load him up and bring him home ...... but I know I couldn't cope with his behaviour issues if I were to do that, but there IS another place where I know they'd love to have him but which would cost me more to keep him, whereas its costing me nothing at the mo).

Sorry, am rambling, but am upset. I'd worked my butt off keeping him free from sweet itch ..... and now he's been somewhere else for a fortnight and he's the WORST he's ever been. So yes I'm upset.
 
Sorry but got no words of comfort for you , been in a similar situation with a pony out on loan who developed laminitis and their vet treated it differently to the way mine would have. I got very upset and with good reason because they wouldn't listen and eventually the mare was PTS.
 
I'd be the same. But try not to over-react just yet.

You've addressed the issue of the hoody. What's not clear from your post is whether it's the loaners fault that he wasn't wearing it or the YM. But hopefully now it's been brought to YM's attention it *shouldn't* happen again. You have to expect some teething issues when you move your horse to a yard where several different people are likely to be involved in his care. Can you ask for a polite notice by his stable saying he must wear his hoody at all times?

Re saddle - why not offer to pay the £20-£30 for a qualified fitter to come and give their opinion on the fit? If it then turns out that it does fit, fine, if not, your loaner sounds asthough she would want to do right by the horse so something can be sorted out (maybe part-ex for a saddle that does fit?).

ETA: did he not already have a fitted saddle?
 
First thing is did he go with a saddle, if so why has it been replaced and it should have been fitted by a saddler not a YM as it is not their horse and has had problems with the back. I feel this needs addressing immediately.
Secondly I would think the yard has been tuning out without the rug, they are time consuming when you are busy and they have probably though as he was so good on arrival that it would not be a problem. Having spoken to the YO I would think this will no longer be a problem and that he will now wear his rug at all times.
If you are generally happy with the arrangement give longer and see how it goes, pop in and see him as often as you can I am sure it will all be fine.
 
Mmm, don't think its the loaner's fault; she's a cracking girl and I am confident she would have done the proper thing.

As for the saddle; the yard apparently do a bit of "saddlery", BUT I am not sure if anyone there is qualified as a "saddle fitter". But yes, agree diplomatic solution might be to get someone in to check - I wouldn't mind contributing financially. He didn't come with a saddle as er, um-hum, the loaner is shall we say a bit heavier than me and so it was obvious that the saddle we hadn't wasn't gonna fit! No way.

Yes, am prob'ly being over-precious. I liked the YM when I met her when I viewed the yard initially and so agree its probably a teething difficulty.
 
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I would voice your concerns over the mane and tell her what you discussed with the YM. Maybe say you would be back in a few weeks and would like to see an improvement in the condition of his mane.

I would also tell her that you do not want your horse to be ridden in a saddle that has not been fitted by a professional saddler. Did he not go on loan with a saddle?
 
Well you can't know 100% for certain that the loanee has done anything wrong

agree with the poster above, if you're concerned about saddle then pay for it to be checked.

With the Sweet itch - I would give a list of exactly how this should be cared for, maybe even give a warning that if the list is not adhered to you reserve the right to remove the horse.

For what it's worth, my sweet itch horse will cause much more damage to himself in a stable than out in the field so maybe your horse is being brought in and scratching away at himself rather than being turned out without the hoody. Stressful situations such as moving yards can bring on a sudden increase in sweet itch suffering so this could also be why he is tending to rub more than before
 
I'm sorry but after a couple off bad loans myself ( one where my mare had to be pts) I would be taking my horse back asap as in now

If it looked as though the loaner was being deliberately negligent then I would agree but the 2 issues mentioned both seem to be more the fault of the YM than the loaner and both can be addressed. If it were me I continue the loan but if there are ongoing concerns that relate to the YM I would discuss moving the horse and loaner somewhere else.
 
No I don't think you're being too precious.
Someone is telling porkies, sounds to me like he's been turned out without his rug on, and neither the yard nor the loaner wants to admit it was them.
Can your loaner not loan him from your own yard? that way he's there and you can make sure that he's getting the treatment he needs while she can still exercise him for you?
At the end of the day, if you can't trust the loaner/yard to put a rug on him, then I wouldn't trust them to do much else either and I'd be there loading him up as we speak, whether the loan agreement stated I could or not!
 
Ok so have spoken to loaner via e.mail.

Apparently someone inadvertently turned him out without realising he needed a hoody; quite easily done (am trying to be charitable here!) as he is new to the yard, so hopefully YO/YM plus loanee now aware and will be rectified without re-occurrence!

Re. saddle: have agreed amicably that perhaps we can get a "fitter" in to look at this, "excuse" being that as he's now doing more work, will change shape etc etc, so perhaps after a month or so would be a good time to review situation. I don't mind paying for this and/or going halves or whatever.

Am really hoping this loan will work out without any more issues! He is a lovely horse but needs to be in a big yard like this with lots going on - and the loanee is a fantastic girl who loves him to bits and none of this is her fault, bless her. If ever a horse and person were made to suit each other I think this is it .....

So hopefully all now will be sorted!
 
Glad to hear it seems sorted!

Just as a fyi for future reference, should the worst happen, the standard BHS contract does have a clause in it which allows you to remove the horse at any point in time, without warning, if you feel he isn't being cared for properly. If your horse has sweet-itch, if the loanee chose to turn out without the hood, despite being fully aware of the condition and your instructions that he must wear the hood at all times, this would count as not being cared for properly.
 
OK - thanks poster above. Yes, shall bear that in mind. But on this occasion I think it honestly WAS a genuine error and not the loaner's fault; some (peabrain) at the yard turned him out and didn't put on his flyrug, probably because they didn't realise he should have it. On this one occasion I am prepared to say it was a genuine oversight; however if it happened again I would not be so charitable.
 
um perhaps the change of yard etc etc BUT ensure the loanee fully understands re sweet itch that has worked before. Show her. I eould tell her you are really worried about this in particular and want it cared for in the way that worked before.

Re saddle where is the old one? But yes get someone experienced to re fit it??

Early days, but I dont blame you for keeping an eye on him. My sister lost a horse to a loanee who wasnt putting on the grazing muzzle on turnout (as it suffered colic) it died of colic with out muzzle. This had been written into the loan agreement

However for her to fork out on a saddle sounds like she genuinely has put her hand in her pocket. Is she spending enough time on him?
 
I feel that the YM sounds like an incompetant person masquerading as a competent person-I would not be happy at my horse staying under her influence if it was going to stay with the loaner.
 
Sounds like you've made some progress so fingers crossed the sweetitch thing is just teething problems. Having been on / worked at a busy yard I know it's easy done for someone who doesn't know the horse to turn it out without the right rug on / without flymask / without protective boots simply because nobody told them it needed them. Hopefully now this has been brought to YO's attention they will make a special effort to make sure it doesn't happen again. Definitely get a fitter in to look at that saddle (well done for finding a way to be diplomatic about it). I'd monitor the situation for now and if another incident with the hoodie occurs / the saddle fit does not get checked then come down on them both like a ton of bricks. As has already been mentioned if you've used BHS contract then there should be a clause in there stating that if you aren't happy with way horse is being kept you reserve the right to take back with no notice whatsoever.
 
Hi. I have been thinking about this and when we were talking to a riding school about putting our horse on loan to them they had a loan agreement. So does your loaner then have an agreement with you and then another loan agreement with the school e.g. how many hours he will be used in the week? when she will be able to ride him? and any special requirements he has e.g. sweetitch rug. I think it is very generous of you to allow him to be at a riding school, I wouldn't want my horse being ridden by people I didn't know.
 
What has the loanee said about the saddle, and the master saddler that fitted it for her? And have you explained your concerns regarding the saddle to her??
 
Surely if the loan agreement is not being adhered to you can get your horse back ? had you thought of loaning her/him out to an equestrian college ? they are often looking for suitable horses and I'm sure the care will be better, at the one local to me the horses are over pampered if anything.
 
Just to clarify: everything is sorted, so thanks to everyone for their contributions! This loan arrangement is, I guess, quite unusual in that I have loaned the horse to an individual, who is then in turn keeping him on working livery at a yard. They pay for/provide basic hay/lage; straw and turnout (and maybe half the shoes, I don't know??) and the borrower pays for hard feed. The riding school can use the horse for a percentage of the week; again I don't know exactly how that bit works.

So whilst it is an unusual loan scenario and might appear frought with difficulties for some, I really think it can work! This particular horse badly needed more work; he wasn't at his fullest potential home with me in a smaller herd situation and actually thrives in a "big yard" atmosphere with lots happening, plus I couldn't give him the time he needed really. He's not the type you can just chuck out and forget about. He's one of those horses who's 99% sweetheart and 1% fruitloop; only the problem was that the fruitloop behaviour could be very frightening when it happened and an incident occurred which made me lose my confidence with him unfortunately, hence the need to do something with him and a loan where he would get the work was the obvious choice.

The loanee is a super girl and I think she'll do brilliantly with him. The working livery arrangement suits her coz firstly it keeps the costs down plus it means that when she can't get to the yard because of work or whatever, then the horse is cared for. Its a professional yard and is LA inspected.

So, yup, I think everything should be sorted!
 
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