Loan doubts

[FestiveFuzz]

I'll try to keep this short but I'm stressing a bit about everything so bear with me if I go off on tangents a bit.

I'm due to take a horse on loan in September and will be moving her to our yard then. In the meantime I've been rather fortunate as her owner has allowed me to ride her whenever I like as she's pregnant and can no longer ride. On the whole I've been really happy with the arrangement but slowly and surely doubts have been setting in and I'm now not sure what to do.

I should probably add at this point that I was never looking to take on a loan horse and have been saving to buy a new one at the end of summer. I had been riding this horse as my friend keeps her horses at the yard and this particular horse had no rider and needed exercise. Also when I have previously had horses on loan it had always been a long term agreement i.e. for as I wanted the horse rather than a year long agreement like I have with current horse. When this was initially discussed I thought it would be absolutely fine as the horse wasn't the sort I'd usually go for, but as I've spent more time with her I've naturally found myself getting more attached and already dread the time coming when I have to give her back

A few weeks back I discovered that the horse's owner actually loans the horse from someone else and that whilst she's agreed to buy her years have passed and she still hasn't paid for her. This in itself worries me slightly as I just feel there's so much potential for something to go wrong with so many people involved. Maybe I'm just worrying unnecessarily but I just don't understand why I was misled at the start as to who owned the horse and wonder had I not asked her about it would she have told me at all?

Then today the horse went lame. Naturally I wanted to call her owner but she didn't pick up so I spent an hour and a half ringing round other people to track her down as above hosing the sore leg and checking for lumps, bumps and heat I wasn't sure what else she would want me to do and what with it not being my horse I wanted to be extra sure I'd done everything she'd want me to. This again reminded me why I like to own my horses as that way I can act on my own judgements rather than wasting time ticking boxes so to speak.

Whilst examining her leg I found a lump and when I mentioned it to the owner she said that her original vet had thought the horse has sarcoids, though a later vet said it was just a blocked gland. Obviously had I known she potentially had sarcoids I'd have said no to loaning as enough can go wrong with horses without willing taking on one with health issues. So question here is can I ask for certain exclusions to be added in to our loan agreement so for example if she developed severe sarcoids owner would have to pay vet costs as it was a pre-existing condition? Obviously I'd cover everything else but don't want to be footing the bill for something that is likely to be an insurance exclusion.

Ultimately I'm already tied as I can't really back out of the loan now but I'm just stressing about the health issues (apparently the lameness may be a recurrent issue too) and worrying about getting too attached and then having to hand her back

Strawberry cider and chocolate mousse for anyone who got this far!

 

[Adopter]

If you are saying that the person who is going to come a loan arrangement with you does not actually own the horse, I think you are taking on potential trouble, without the complication of the health issues.

Why go ahead, September is a few weeks away so time to say you have changed your mind and go back to original plan of getting your own.

 

[Tickles]

If 'owner' is in fact 'loaner1' have you even got assurance from real 'owner' that loaner1 is allowed to re-loan the horse? To you? With whatever T&Cs have been agreed?

Would be very cautious on this aside from any concerns around vet fees etc...

 

[FestiveFuzz]

That's the case unfortunately and whilst it seems the actual owner is more than happy for me to loan the horse for a year and just feel there's a massive grey area if something were to go wrong.

As for not going through with the loan, I feel terrible as the "owner" was really worried I'd pull out before September as that's when her baby is due and I reassured her that wouldn't be the case so would be putting her in a terrible position if I pulled out now

 

[FestiveFuzz]

I only have "owner's" word that the actual owner is happy for me to loan the horse. I've never met the actual owner and wouldn't know how to get in touch with her to check aside from asking "owner" for contact details though that rather looks like I don't trust her.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I think you have reason to be concerned, I wouldnt go ahead I think its strange that she is loaning a horse that does not belong to her and she is only loaning the horse herself, if she is not in a position to ride or care for the horse surely the horse should go back to the owner, if I was the owner of the horse and found out the loanee was loaning my horse I would not be happy.

 

[be positive]

I think before you take the horse on in Sept you do need to have contact with the owner, there are several issues that could arise, if the horse was very badly injured you need to have authority to have her pts, or know whether to send for an operation etc, these are not situations that her current loaner has authority to give you instructions on or may be in labour and unable to be contacted.
Insurance is also a grey area, if you take out insurance in your name it is stretching the ownership a bit further in the chain and could be very complicated if you did have to claim on anything considered to be a previous condition.
Explain to the current loaner that you do have reservations and need some parts clarified, the fact she is pregnant and you may let her down should not mean you take on a horse and end up in a difficult situation that costs you money without having a contract in place, insurance in place that you are happy with.

 

[RainbowDash]

I agree with all posters above. If it is the loaner instead of the owner you are dealing with you must have contact with the owner.

If you have doubts now walk away and find another loan.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

Thanks so much for confirming I'm not being a total cow for being worried about this, it just seems like a lot of hassle and honestly hadn't thought about it being difficult to get insurance for a loaned loan horse. I know the "owner" is super stressed with lots of things right now but once we know the reason for the lameness I think I'm going to have to have a long chat with her about everything

 

[kizmund]

My horse is on full loan and there's no way most owners would allow them to be full loaned from loan home. The whole idea of full loaning is so owner knows who the horse is going to and is happy with the arrangement. Alarm bells are ringing here. It may be the case that actual owner is very trusting of the loaner and relaxed about what she does with horse, if you go ahead I would want to speak to the actual owner as well as I assume they have a part to pay in the financials. I pay for my horses insurance and all vets bills that aren't minor or routine.

 

[WelshD]

Personally I would walk away

You didn't want a loan horse and the one you have found seems to be more trouble than it's worth

If you like the horse then ask the owner if you can buy it as it was obviously originally supposed to be sold

 

[LynH]

I loan a horse and have to supply the insurance company with a copy of the loan agreement and the owners full details. If the horse was to die they need to know who owns the horse to enable payment for a death claim.
I would speak to loaner1 about the concerns and say that you need the owners details for the insurance and also that you need to speak to the owner and get their written permission in case you ever need to PTS or operate.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

I completely agree if the shoe were on the other foot I would not want a horse I'd put on loan to be re-loaned to someone else no matter the circumstances. I think the "owner" and mutual friend just made it seem like it was a standard agreement despite me coming back to my OH when I heard and saying I didn't understand why anyone would sell there horse but not chase up on the money and retain ownership (which was the way it was pitched to me) - my head hurts just thinking about it!

 

[FestiveFuzz]

Well last night was a struggle to sleep as I hate confrontation and can't imagine my chat with the "owner" will go well, so how would you lovely folks recommend I broach the subject of not wanting to go through with the loan due to ownership issues?

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

I'd also be refusing the loan on the grounds of a previously undeclared recurrent lameness issue. If the original owner wanted to sell the horse then they may not want it back at all, if the current loaner can't take it back for a year or even decides she doesn't want it back at all due to the baby taking all her time, then where does that leave you? I definitely wouldn't take the current loaners word for it that the original owner doesn't mind the horse being passed on again. I'd walk away mainly because nobody's been straight with you. Just be honest. Tell the loaner you won't be going through with the loan, you no longer want the horse for xyz reasons, then refuse to discuss it. It sounds like they've guilt tripped you into it from the start. You never wanted a short term loan, you wanted to buy and you're ready to do that now. I don't really see why you agreed to loan this horse in the first place

If you were asked: "Do you want a short term loan on a horse that's not really your cup of tea who has possible sarcoids and intermittent lameness? By the way the horse is loaned by me and I don't intend for you to meet with/discuss with/have contract from the owner."

What would you say?

 

[BSJAlove]

The question you need to ask yourself is how much you want the horse. If you do, I'd be asking the person you would be loaning from to take a look at the horses passport as you want the 'real' owners details for the insurance policy. The ball is in her court then. She either gives the details or she doesn't.

If you don't want the horse, I'd just apologise and say you can no longer commit. If she asks a reason, just say you've decided o continue to save for our own. Which is true.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

My horse is on full loan and there's no way most owners would allow them to be full loaned from loan home. The whole idea of full loaning is so owner knows who the horse is going to and is happy with the arrangement. Alarm bells are ringing here. It may be the case that actual owner is very trusting of the loaner and relaxed about what she does with horse, if you go ahead I would want to speak to the actual owner as well as I assume they have a part to pay in the financials. I pay for my horses insurance and all vets bills that aren't minor or routine.

Agree with this, and other comments made here.

I've loaned my boy in the past and I'd be absolutely vapourising if I'd loaned him to someone, who then loans him on to someone else.

It should be expressly stated in any loan agreement between the Owner and the Loaner that the horse must NOT be moved anyway (sounds like there's no such arrangement in place???).

Personally I'd ask the person who's offering him on loan to you, i.e. Loaner 1, to speak directly to the owner. You could say that if you're taking on any horse, especially one with veterinary issues, you need to draw up a formal loan agreement directly with the owner, and you will NOT repeat not, under any circumstances, have the horse on loan unless you negotiate directly with the owner.

Frankly, the owner needs to pull her pants up and start realising its HER horse and she's got ultimate responsibility for it. I'm shocked, and appalled, that anyone could be so blase about their horse and let it go on an indefinate loan to someone that she might not even know.

But I sense OP that you have your misgivings about this.

My advice, for what its worth, would be to turn your back and walk away on this one. There's nothing but (a) heartbreak (b) expense and (c) trouble ahead with this one, methinks.

Go with your gut feeling and sort out your own loan arrangement and choose a horse for yourself. Loans are complicated enough as it is, you don't need this!

 

[AmyMay]

Well last night was a struggle to sleep as I hate confrontation and can't imagine my chat with the "owner" will go well, so how would you lovely folks recommend I broach the subject of not wanting to go through with the loan due to ownership issues?

I think you just need to be honest. Say that you've changed your mind about loaning the horse for a number of reasons - but not least of all because you have had no contact with the owner to agree terms etc.

 

[ChestnutTinker]

I think you just need to be honest. Say that you've changed your mind about loaning the horse for a number of reasons - but not least of all because you have had no contact with the owner to agree terms etc.

Ditto this
but I think walking away is your best option - And I don't think she should be loaning out somebody else's horse either, especially if it has health issues!!

 

[Mince Pie]

If it wasn't for the ownership issue, and the sarcoid/lameness could be managed happily, would you want the horse? You say that you are now quite attached so is it possible to speak to the actual owner and buy the horse as it seems it was for sale in the first place?

 

[Adopter]

I think in the situation you find yourself the less you say the better. Anything less than the truth has. A way of rebounding.
In your situation I would apologise and say I had changed my mind about loaning as I really want my own horse for the long term. You could add your concern about lameness to sweeten if necessary.
Remember you do not have to e/plain why you make a decision to anyone, just apologise your change of mind.

Good luck get it done and sleep with a clear conscious.

 

[D66]

I don't think you should feel guilty about breaking your agreement to loan the horse, The loaner/owner should be feeling guilty that she hasn't told you the truth about its ownership and health concerns.

 

[Honey08]

I think you are worrying a lot over things that could be easily sorted or don't even need worrying about.

The double loan situation - yes they should have told you straight away, but it sounds as though its a long ongoing situation and that the real owner is happy about things. I would ask to meet the owner and check they are happy. Say that you will also need their address for insurance - to know who would receive the money if the horse died..

The lameness, well that can happen, I didn't read that there was a reoccurring lameness, more that it was a one off. Yes, you do need to get it in writing that you are able to make decisions re care and calling the vet etc.

The sarcoid issue. This was a lump that was thought to be a sarcoid years ago by one vet, then not a sarcoid by another more recent. From reading this, I also take that nothing has ever happened with this lump. My gelding had a few warts/lumps when we bought him, the vetting threw it up, and we seriously dithered about it. Five years on, nothing has ever reared its head..

Have a chat with the lady you are loaning the horse from, tell her your worries, see what she comes back with. You would not be leaving her in a mess if you revoked (especially now - she has ten weeks or so to find someone else..). At the end of the day its not her horse and she could send it back if need be. Also, the odds are that she won't have as much time for this horse after baby is born than she thinks, so you could end up with a longer loan anyway, or the chance to buy her yourself.

As you said that, overall, you're happy with the loan, I would get these few things ironed out. If not walk away and be honest with her. That is the risk when you loan a horse out to someone - it could come back, and its something everyone who loans a horse out should have a back up plan for..

 

[FestiveFuzz]

I'd also be refusing the loan on the grounds of a previously undeclared recurrent lameness issue. If the original owner wanted to sell the horse then they may not want it back at all, if the current loaner can't take it back for a year or even decides she doesn't want it back at all due to the baby taking all her time, then where does that leave you? I definitely wouldn't take the current loaners word for it that the original owner doesn't mind the horse being passed on again. I'd walk away mainly because nobody's been straight with you. Just be honest. Tell the loaner you won't be going through with the loan, you no longer want the horse for xyz reasons, then refuse to discuss it. It sounds like they've guilt tripped you into it from the start. You never wanted a short term loan, you wanted to buy and you're ready to do that now. I don't really see why you agreed to loan this horse in the first place

If you were asked: "Do you want a short term loan on a horse that's not really your cup of tea who has possible sarcoids and intermittent lameness? By the way the horse is loaned by me and I don't intend for you to meet with/discuss with/have contract from the owner."

What would you say?

With the lameness it's unclear at this stage whether it's a recurrent issue or not as "owner" told everyone at the yard it wasn't recurrent and then admitted to me she didn't know if it could be or not

I took her on as she was meant to be a confidence giver and having had a few years off from horses I wanted to make sure I didn't over-horse myself. I was also finding viewing unknown horses a bit of a stress as I'm a bit of a worrier sometimes and all my previous horses had come through word of mouth so it seemed easier and less stressful to take on a horse that I knew and was already riding.

Had I known all the facts upfront I probably would have walked away, but I guess I now feel guilty as I've been riding her every weekend for the last few months.

 

[crabbymare]

On the horse side the possibility of sarcoids would not worry me on a years loan but I would want the lameness explained as if it is something that comes back its going to be a problem and what would happen with the horse if it went lame and needed vets attention or returning? I would certainly want to know about the owner and speak to them before taking the horse on though so a chat with the current loaner with the 2 concerns is certainly ion order. you may well get attached to the horse but at least you know it will give you a year of confidence then be going back when you take it on whereas its quite possible that if you went straight into a purchase you could want more of a horse after a year and then be in a position of needing to sell to get that so at least you know the horse will have a loving home to return to that already knows him

 

[TommisMum]

Feel guilty for exercising someone elses horse .... now you sound like me when I was looking at a years trial for my 4 yr old!!
As previously said would you buy this horse if available and you in the position to buy...

yes- then contact owner and set agreement with them not loanee - do this as an insurance position should the worst ever happen. Neither the loanee or owner can complain and it protects them as your loan agreement would state that at the end of the agreement horse is returned to loanee and not owner.

No - just say after much deliberation and soulsearching the horse isn't right for you. Keep it simple no explanation just sorry but ...

Dont get yourself into something you will regret.

 

[Polos Mum]

As harsh as as a loaner you always have the option to give the horse back, if the sarcoid, lameness or any other issue arises - just hand pony back for owner to sort - that is the benefit of loaning and the risk the owner/ loaner 1 takes in not selling - harsh but true.

Actually in your situation the pregnancy of the lady you've been dealing with is less of an issue as she isn't the owner so if you hand horse back at an inconvenient moment she can in turn hand it back to the actual owner.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

Thanks all! I wouldn't be interesting in buying the horse in question as I know as lovely as she is, a year down the line I'd be looking for something more than this little horse can offer.

I've spoken to the YO of the yard we're due to move to as she is a hell of a lot more knowledgeable than me and I completely trust her judgement. She's suggested to walk away as the dishonesty is concerning and she thinks I can easily find what I'm looking for within my budget without having to the potential issues this loan may bring.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Don't feel guilty, the person now has a horse in work to loan out, rather than an unfit out of work horse, so you've still helped her out.

 

[fatpiggy]

My worry would also be that the pregnant loaner may well decide she doesn't want the horse back after the baby arrives and the OP could be really stuck with it. Looking after a baby/young child is hard work enough without adding a horse into the equation. Once she stops doing the horse, she may well not want to restart again.