Loan gone sour! Advice please!

Echo Bravo said:
And the fact the mare will have past her temperament on to the foal, my friend had a mare that was foal proud best mum in the world, but you took your life into your own hands if you went anywhere near her baby, once weaned she was back to normal, but her foals had the same temper as she did.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately I agree with this. I have seen it happen despite the stallion having an amazing temperament. It was unwise to breed from that mare but its done now there is no point in slating the OP. Hopefully the foal in question will prove me wrong.

It is the owner that is being callous not the OP. If you loan a horse out for breeding you would expect to get it back at weaning. The OP shouldn't be guilted into keeping a mare that they never intended to keep just because the owner doesn't want it back. I have no helpful suggestions for you OP, but what a terrible situation to be in. I hope the poor horsey has enjoyed the past few months if they are to be her last.
 
To be fair, OP has taken the time to look into the mares breeding and it's actually not that bad, so such a 'two bit' mare that someone dragged out of a field somewhere unknown. OP has obviously thought things through and didn't just want a cuddly fluffy baby to play with for a while, unfortunately, sometimes things just don't go to plan. Surely this is better than OP taking pity, keeping the mare and not having the finances to look after them both properly? Anyway, that's just my opinion though I can see where others are coming from as it is sad for the mare :(
Hope something is sorted ASAP :)
could she not go to a blood bank or something?
 
Presumably the OP has cared for this mare for over a year. The mare has provided the foal and her job is done. PTS. Sorry, Im no fluffy bunny type but that doesnt sit well with me at all. Poor wee mare :(
 
All I think is poor mare.

Your foal?
She carried it and cared for it and has obviously produced a nice foal you are proud of.
She has had other problems in life which has resulted in being used as a brood mare.
Which I think is a bad thing any way, producing more horses when there are so many already out there.

You said you can't afford two horses so it must have always been the plan to finish the loan after weaning.
So details should have be confirmed then.
What are the arrangements for returning horse to owner?
Continue with the plan in the agreement.
It will then be the owners job to short her out.

In which I thinj its terrible, the horse has done her job and now isn't wanted by owner or loaner.

The mare temperment may well relax once hee hormones are back to normal.
 
Last edited:
We get back what we give, generally in spades...poor mare. Disgusted at the way she has been treated and is being spoken of, surely you can afford to rent a field for her to be turned away in whilst baby is weaned and gelded? You are having him gelded, right? If all else fails, you could then turn them both out to grass whilst baby grows up. Have some patience - once the hormones go the mare may turn out to be fine again and foal would have company! Where on earth are you going to put such a baby to grow up normally anyway? Presumably with other youngstock, why not have the mare as nanny? Ugh - not coming back to this thread! :(
 
irresponsible loaner and irresponsible owner. The fact that the OP is a vet student says an awful lot about the quality of vets about to hit nation in 3 years time, neither common sense nor horse sense IMO
 
The loaner knew the mare was breeding loan so must have known she would be coming back at weaning. The lonee however should have been making sure that for her sake and the mares that everything was in writing incluing the terms of return.

So in my opinion all are at fault for this sorry state of affairs. If the mare is no longer wanted by either party then after weaning, and giving her at least a chance to calm down, PTS or deliver her to her owner. Personally if she's lame and unrideable with the above temperament PTS would be a kinder option.
 
A vet student? Hopefully by the end of the course you will see why you perhaps should have made different decisions all the way through from the very beginning.

Sooo many things to say about the wisdom of the whole thing, but the foal is here now and the mare is no longer wanted by OP. It actually isn't the OPs responsibility to dispose of the mare other than to get her back to her owner and she can't actually PTS without a reason without the owner's written permission. A few pages back someone suggested a recorded delivery letter to the owner detailing the end of the loan and the transfer of livery costs to them on that date. Tell the livery yard owner as well that this is going to happen and then it is the yard owner's responsibility to sell the mare to recoup unpaid bills if that should happen. Think hard about this though if the foal is at the same yard because you are creating an almighty headache for the yard owner even if you are within your legal rights to do so. If I were the yard owner I would probably return the favour with a months notice to you to remove your foal......

I don't know if vet students have a legal help/advice line to call on, but if you are a member of the BHS you could use their helpline for legal advice on this. If you're not - then I would suggest that you join because it's not much to pay for insurance and free legal help for any horse owner.
 
If you have the owners wishes in writing regarding pts - then just make the arrangements. Kennels aren't expensive.

Bad advice Bedlam regarding the YO. Their contract is with the loanee not the loaner.
 
Breeding loans are commonplace, I don't know what all the hoohah is about, it's certainly not OP's fault that the owner wants it put down instead of being returned to them and as long as she has the passport (unless it's going to the kennels) anyone will put it down for her without any problem.

FWIW what honestly would you holier than thou types actually do with a mare that's gone awol with its respect for human life? I know damn well mine would be gone in a shot (excuse the pun) I've looked after a mare that picked me up by the scruff of my jacket and shook me like a terrier then tried to trample me; I was damn lucky it was a padded jacket else I might not be here to tell the tale. That mare had been with me for months, in the same routine and nothing had changed but this one night she just flipped. Owner sent her away to stud to foal and I warned them not to trust her but they ignored me thinking they knew best; the groom still has the marks on his back when she grabbed him as he gave her some hay and trampled him, he was badly hurt. I would have put her down then regardless of her ability as she was a liability waiting to happen, next time it could have been a child (won 7 races and her stock won too) but owner sold her on; I wouldn't have been able to live with my conscience if I had.

OP, you picked a smashing stallion, have a lot of time for Old Leighlin stock, all the ones I've known have had lovely temperaments even two that were ruined by their breeder; I hope your foal does well.
 
TuscanBunnyGirl said:
To be fair, OP has taken the time to look into the mares breeding and it's actually not that bad,
Click to expand...

Most warmbloods are "well bred" though, aren't they? In the sense that they are invariably related to some famous horses. Doesn't mean its necessarily good breeding stock.

I just don't "get" why a vet student, who will have to do courses on running a business (since most vets' practices are partnerships), and basic contract law, would enter into a loan contract with no end date or notice period. What would have happened if the mare had developed complications during gestation or birth, and needed expensive veterinary treatment? Who would have paid?

Who will handle the foal when it becomes a yearling and two year old while the OP is at uni? How will the OP have the time to break in and school a young horse when a new vet if she doesn't have time while a student?

I would also be wary of pts someone else's horse without their permission. Destroying the subject matter of the contract while it may have some value is a bit excessive and may leave the OP open to legal action. Giving proper notice is her first step.

Mind you, if this thread is for real, it would be the third example of a silly vet I've encountered recently in their dealings with horses. A little knowledge does not always go a long way.

OP - you are studying to enter a profession, where professional standards will be expected of you. Alongside that, as a vet, you will be expected to have some empathy and compassion for the animals you will be caring for. Obviously that does not extend to the fluffy bunny type nonsense, but I was shocked by your attitude on this thread and its not really an attitude I would expect to see in a vet.
 
I have no issue with the horse being PTS .
But why would anyone pay for a stallion and sign a loan agreement saying the owner can take the mare back at any time but says nothing about the mare being returned when OP clearly did not plan to keep her.
 
The OP took on the mare to breed from and has done just that plus has hit the agreed end date pretty much bang on so has kept their part of the agreement

Personally OP I would not be arranging the PTS without crystal clear permission from the owner - apart from anything they are dodging their responsibility and regardless of how you feel about the mare its not a very nice thing to offload on to you. I think i would be sending a letter detailing how and when the mare will be returned unless you get alternative arrangements from them
 
Maesfen said:
Breeding loans are commonplace, I don't know what all the hoohah is about, it's certainly not OP's fault that the owner wants it put down instead of being returned to them and as long as she has the passport (unless it's going to the kennels) anyone will put it down for her without any problem.
Click to expand...

They are, yes. But responsible owners and loanees ensure that the loan agreement includes terms for return of the mare.
The loanee cannot have the mare put down without the written consent of the owner, whether she is in possession of the passport or not. In the meantime, she has a duty of care towards the mare.

Maesfen said:
FWIW what honestly would you holier than thou types actually do with a mare that's gone awol with its respect for human life?
Click to expand...

It really doesn't sound as if the mare has 'gone awol with its respect for human life'! It sounds as if the mare is just being uber protective of her first foal. It happens. And it does require careful and sensitive handling, not a death sentence!
 
Last edited:
Maesfen said:
Breeding loans are commonplace, I don't know what all the hoohah is about, it's certainly not OP's fault that the owner wants it put down instead of being returned to them and as long as she has the passport (unless it's going to the kennels) anyone will put it down for her without any problem.

FWIW what honestly would you holier than thou types actually do with a mare that's gone awol with its respect for human life? I know damn well mine would be gone in a shot (excuse the pun) I've looked after a mare that picked me up by the scruff of my jacket and shook me like a terrier then tried to trample me; I was damn lucky it was a padded jacket else I might not be here to tell the tale. That mare had been with me for months, in the same routine and nothing had changed but this one night she just flipped. Owner sent her away to stud to foal and I warned them not to trust her but they ignored me thinking they knew best; the groom still has the marks on his back when she grabbed him as he gave her some hay and trampled him, he was badly hurt. I would have put her down then regardless of her ability as she was a liability waiting to happen, next time it could have been a child (won 7 races and her stock won too) but owner sold her on; I wouldn't have been able to live with my conscience if I had.

OP, you picked a smashing stallion, have a lot of time for Old Leighlin stock, all the ones I've known have had lovely temperaments even two that were ruined by their breeder; I hope your foal does well.
Click to expand...


I agree - they are commonplace, but there are also normally contracts in place stating the responsibilities of both parties at the end of the contract. This does not seem to be the case here - it all seems a bit loose and wishy washy contract wise.

I don't think that anyone is questioning whether or not the mare should be pts, just whose responsibility it is and whether the OP should do it without the owner's express permission in writing. (Maybe they are - I haven't read the whole thread, but I'm certainly not). I have no doubt a kennelman would do the deed with a passport in place, but that wouldn't stop the owner kicking up a fuss afterwards and saying that it wasn't what she wanted.

There's no point debating the rights or wrongs of whether the foal should have been bred in the first place as it's here now. I don't know the stallion line to be honest, but the way the original post was written made it sound as if someone had given her a mare and the stallion was cheap and local so why not have a foal - afterall by the time it needed any real attention at 3 or 4 years old the OP would be out of university and a newly qualified vet to boot with loads of time to spend backing and bringing on a young eventer.

It's more than possible that the only sin OP has committed is being naive in her wording of her posts here in the unforgiving world of HHO. But the question still remains - what should this young vet student do with horse that she doesn't own or want anymore? Answer - she should make all possible attempt to legally return the horse to its owner. I really do not think she can pts without express written permission - especially considering her future profession. This is why I strongly recommend some legal advice.
 
Buddy'sMum said:
The loanee cannot have the mare put down without the written consent of the owner, whether she is in possession of the passport or not. In the meantime, she has a duty of care towards the mare.
Click to expand...

Horses are put down regularly without the owner's permission if you read the posts where horses have gone missing so that objection doesn't hold any water I'm afraid.
That doesn't mean I don't think OP should do all she can to get anything in writing to cover herself, of course she should.
 
Last edited:
Maesfen said:
Horses are put down regularly without the owner's permission if you read the posts where horses have gone missing so that objection doesn't hold any water I'm afraid.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't look good on a young, newly qualified vet to have done that though would it? And just because it happens doesn't make it right......
 
It seems to me that yet again a loan has taken place without an enforceable loan agreement having been drawn up.
The BHS produce a draft loan agreement which can be used as a template but the parties involved are advised to make amendments etc. to it and then when the final draft has been agreed between both parties to get a specialist equine solicitor to review it and amend it so that it will stand up in court.
If this is done then at least both parties know were they are.
 
Maesfen said:
Horses are put down regularly without the owner's permission if you read the posts where horses have gone missing so that objection doesn't hold any water I'm afraid.
That doesn't mean I don't think OP should do all she can to get anything in writing to cover herself, of course she should.
Click to expand...

In view of the fact that the OP hasn't yet effectively given notice (ie by recorded delivery and giving a reasonable time, since none is specified in the loan contract) I really don't think that mitigating her loss extends to destroying the subject matter of the contract at this stage. She could mitigate by other means, such as renting cheap grazing and turning the mare away, and invoice the owner for her costs. Maybe at some future stage when the owner has been contacted a number of times and given fair warning.

But what is the rush to kill this mare asap? Is the OP being charged two sets of full livery now that the foal is being weaned?
 
Very very good points about how wrong it could go if the OP isnt very careful about the PTS permission - has the potential to be career ending surely?
 
Of course it's not right but it does happen, that can't be denied; there is no security system in place at a slaughterhouse other than a passport - which is not proof of ownership.
OP needs to make a record of all calls, texts and emails from the owner as a back up if the owner refuses to take the mare back and send a recorded delivery letter as to her intent within a specified time; it's up to the owner to respond then and if she doesn't, take the appropriate action.
 
I don't get this 'career ending' bit if I'm honest. The owner has stated the mare should be put down, she just hasn't put it in writing. I have several times been asked by owners to have their horses put down and not once have I had to have written permission from them before they could be done or anything shown to the slaughterman. I took a mare belonging to a very dear friend last year and wasn't asked a thing about if it was mine. What I'm trying to say is it happens all the time, it's not a career ending event for someone to do this when the owner has already said she's to be put down and doesn't want her back.
 
My worry would be that the owner would subsequently say it was done without permission and take legal action

People can be weird and flakey and this owner certainly doesnt come across as the rational type

I would be requesting they have the mare Pts themselves
 
The career ending bit is down to the fact that in a few years time OP may be a vet. It sounds as if the mare's owner is now being difficult about not replying to to OPs communication. It is feasible that if OP takes it upon herself to pts the mare herself (not literally I hasten to add) then the owner could make things very difficult for her unless there is express direction recorded that that was what the owner wanted. I wouldn't advise anyone with a future professional career to do anything that may lay them open to legal recourse. The end result may be the same for the mare, but it is actually quite important for the OP I would think to do things properly and get everything in writing quite clearly. I may be wrong - that is why I am recommending seeking the legal advice that in hindsight would have been helpful at the first stage of this tale rather than the last.
 
I don't see how even if they had an air tight loan agreement how it could be enforced. If the owner will not collect the horse or doesn't have their own yard for you to return it to how do you make them take it back?

A friend of mine had a loan agreement written up by a solicitor only for the loanee to have the horse PTS without the owner's knowledge or consent. The horse was loaned out to a Parelli person to do ground games as it had several conditions that prevented him from being ridden. Those same conditions, which were named on the contract as pre existing, were given by the loanee as the reason she had the horse PTS. Legally, even with a contract there was no recourse once the horse was PTS. It was already done, the horse was not worth anything because of his conditions and no matter how far they could have taken it there was no good result. The horse was already dead.

My point is that even with a professionally written loan agreement things still go wrong and I cannot see how you can make someone take a horse back if they don't want to. Also if the loanee has the horse PTS what can the loaner do about it once it's done? Not a nice thought but something that makes you wonder about the value of a well written contract.
 
LynH said:
I don't see how even if they had an air tight loan agreement how it could be enforced. If the owner will not collect the horse or doesn't have their own yard for you to return it to how do you make them take it back?

A friend of mine had a loan agreement written up by a solicitor only for the loanee to have the horse PTS without the owner's knowledge or consent. The horse was loaned out to a Parelli person to do ground games as it had several conditions that prevented him from being ridden. Those same conditions, which were named on the contract as pre existing, were given by the loanee as the reason she had the horse PTS. Legally, even with a contract there was no recourse once the horse was PTS. It was already done, the horse was not worth anything because of his conditions and no matter how far they could have taken it there was no good result. The horse was already dead.

My point is that even with a professionally written loan agreement things still go wrong and I cannot see how you can make someone take a horse back if they don't want to. Also if the loanee has the horse PTS what can the loaner do about it once it's done? Not a nice thought but something that makes you wonder about the value of a well written contract.
Click to expand...


Now rewrite all of that in the knowledge that your friend loaned the horse TO A VET with a list of existing conditions accepted between parties for a particular use and consider whether if the vet had the horse destroyed in a non-emergency situation and your friend was litigious and tasting sour grapes whether it would read the same.

Not doubting that this happens and happens frequently, but just not happy advising a fledging professional to act in a way anything other than professional.

OP - get some legal advice and act on it.
 
Bedlam said:
Now rewrite all of that in the knowledge that your friend loaned the horse TO A VET with a list of existing conditions accepted between parties for a particular use and consider whether if the vet had the horse destroyed in a non-emergency situation and your friend was litigious and tasting sour grapes whether it would read the same.

Not doubting that this happens and happens frequently, but just not happy advising a fledging professional to act in a way anything other than professional.

OP - get some legal advice and act on it.
Click to expand...

I was in no way advising the OP to pts someone else's horse, quite the opposite, I was pointing out that a professionally written loan contract doesn't protect owners or loanees in any way. I don't see how even with a contract you can make an owner take a horse back.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top