Loan gone sour! Advice please!

What a horrible situation

Poor mare. Putting aside the reasons why the mare was bred from in the first place

I agree that having the mare pts without owners written consent could potentially ruin a future career.
OP I know you can't afford full livery for 2 BUT don't risk your whole future on what you can't afford now. If necessary find a field and turn mare away until you can get this legally sorted
 
OP talk to the owner and sort this out, if necessary drive up to her house to find her and speak to her face to face.

Wait until your genetics class before you do any more breeding. The chesnut mare thing is a myth, while autoimmune disorders predominantly have a genetic component.
 
Loaning horses seems to be turning into nightmares for many people judging by the recent number of questions being posted on the forum.

OP, simply go to the home of your owner, offer a very nominal sum for the mare, obtain the passport, signed by the owner as sold to you, together with a receipt for your purchase. What you choose to do with the mare is then no ones business but your own.

I hope your foal does not inherit any temperament or soundness issues and grows on into a good type. His sire is a good one. Good luck with both the foal and your career.
 
Just want to point out, having been a vet student myself not so long ago, the OP in her second year will not have been taught anything about law/ business practice (in fact this doesn't come under vet training at all other than vet surgeons act/ dangerous dogs act/ notifiable diseases etc certainly not in a business sense) and whilst she should have covered repro, it is done in a general scientific way rather than the stud farm approach. A vet looking to go into equine gets taught nothing more about horses/ horse culture/ horsemanship than one interested in small animals - the difference in training is where they choose to do their work experience placements and their background experience prior to vet school. Horsy vet students elect to spend time on stud farms, racing yards, event/dr/ sj yards, go to decent horsy vets for experience, get placements with nutritionists etc so getting a decent horsy knowledge is down to the student being proactive. And only in second year OP still has most of this to cover! So don't hound her because she is a vet student - until she is in her final year/ a qualified vet you cannot assume the level of her knowledge/experience. This is my personal experience of having done vet school myself.
 
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I'm another who doesn't get all the dramatics about having the mare PTS. She's unrideable and aggressive - not an ideal companion horse. I'd probably have her PTS too, don't think it is callous at all.

Personally I wouldn't have bred from a horse like that, but it is done now, I don't think the OP is somehow indebted to offer her a home for life just for breeding a foal.
 
OP just get an e-mail from the owner authorising you to PTS - or go to her house with a short letter addressed to you for her to sign giving authorisation and call the knackerman.
It's sad but if nobody wants the poor mare and if she is agressive and lame, I can understand that - then there is no other option.
 
Arizahn said:
We get back what we give, generally in spades...poor mare. Disgusted at the way she has been treated and is being spoken of, surely you can afford to rent a field for her to be turned away in whilst baby is weaned and gelded? You are having him gelded, right? If all else fails, you could then turn them both out to grass whilst baby grows up. Have some patience - once the hormones go the mare may turn out to be fine again and foal would have company! Where on earth are you going to put such a baby to grow up normally anyway? Presumably with other youngstock, why not have the mare as nanny? Ugh - not coming back to this thread! :(
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This is fantasy. The foal should be weaned as soon as possible to limit his exposure to unwanted behavior. And a nanny mare should have impeccable temperament. Who's to say the mare wont attack other foals? I wouldn't want such a mare being nanny to a foal of mine.

The OP wants to return the mare, its none of her business what the owner wishes to do with the mare afterwards. If the owner didn't want the mare back then she should have sold her. Loaning out a horse that you simply just don't want is trying to pass off a problem that you don't want to deal with yourself.

In an ideal world the owner should take back the horse and do with it as they please. If this situation is never going to happen then the suggestions of buying the mare for a nominal sum are sensible. Its a truly nasty situation to be in, but one created by the owner not the OP.
 
Arizahn said:
Where on earth are you going to put such a baby to grow up normally anyway? Presumably with other youngstock, why not have the mare as nanny? Ugh - not coming back to this thread! :(
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They are at stud - so I would assume that that is where the foal will stay once weaned.
 
khalswitz said:
Just want to point out, having been a vet student myself not so long ago, the OP in her second year will not have been taught anything about law/ business practice (in fact this doesn't come under vet training at all other than vet surgeons act/ dangerous dogs act/ notifiable diseases etc certainly not in a business sense) and whilst she should have covered repro, it is done in a general scientific way rather than the stud farm approach.
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I don't doubt what you are saying for one moment, I simply find it disappointing that someone who is going into a profession involving ultimate care of animals is capable of getting themselves into such a situation, and lacks the common sense to resolve it.

Bearing in mind that if I as a lawyer get such a thing as a speeding ticket, I will get a letter from the Law Society at the very least asking me to explain myself and if I am lucky hauled up in front of the professional practice committee. I am assuming vets are much the same, although I am beginning to wonder.

The risk of pts too quickly is that it leaves the owner with the option of sueing for not only the lost value but hurt feelings, albeit the latter will not be much in monetary terms but the issue is that the horse is not the OP's to pts and she has not given proper formal notice to end the loan.

Surely in A level Biology, genetics is covered along with Mendelism, inherited traits, Punnet squares, etc?
 
Maesfen said:
Horses are put down regularly without the owner's permission if you read the posts where horses have gone missing so that objection doesn't hold any water I'm afraid.
That doesn't mean I don't think OP should do all she can to get anything in writing to cover herself, of course she should.
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But that's not the case here, is it? There is a loan agreement in place and as the mare is in the loanee's possession she has a duty of care towards the mare. From a legal standpoint, you are absolutely wrong to advise the OP that she is within her rights to have the mare destroyed.
 
Mithras said:
I don't doubt what you are saying for one moment, I simply find it disappointing that someone who is going into a profession involving ultimate care of animals is capable of getting themselves into such a situation, and lacks the common sense to resolve it. I agree here - too many students now don't think ahead to after uni and how their actions now affect it. Several of my colleagues ended up in the Daily Mail during our May Week (At Cambridge) and thought it was a great laugh until third year when they realised something like that could affect them getting a job... And there is very much an attitude of 'I'm only a student'

Bearing in mind that if I as a lawyer get such a thing as a speeding ticket, I will get a letter from the Law Society at the very least asking me to explain myself and if I am lucky hauled up in front of the professional practice committee. I am assuming vets are much the same, although I am beginning to wonder. The RCVS would have a vet's head if they PTS'd an animal without consent in a non-emergency situation and it got back to them. However the OP isn't a vet yet, so what they would do I don't know. You are supposed to meet a standard of professionalism even as a student, but it hardly ever gets casted up.

The risk of pts too quickly is that it leaves the owner with the option of sueing for not only the lost value but hurt feelings, albeit the latter will not be much in monetary terms but the issue is that the horse is not the OP's to pts and she has not given proper formal notice to end the loan.

Surely in A level Biology, genetics is covered along with Mendelism, inherited traits, Punnet squares, etc?Yes, genetics will have been covered, as will physiology of repro, however the art of selecting a quality broodmare and a complementary stallion is not something you can learn from studying generalised genetics on paper. And takes a level of common sense that I will admit most science students don't have!! That's why the first few years after graduation are the hardest - because wit is a shock to the system and you have to learn how to apply common sense not just rote-learned knowledge
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I do agree with you generally, however with my post I was countering the points made that the OP should know about contract law and be an expert on breeding just because she is a vet student. Lack of common sense I won't argue about, but the actual vet training has little to do with the above points, especially as the OP is presumably only a second year as she says she has three years to go.
 
xspiralx said:
I'm another who doesn't get all the dramatics about having the mare PTS. She's unrideable and aggressive - not an ideal companion horse. I'd probably have her PTS too, don't think it is callous at all.

Personally I wouldn't have bred from a horse like that, but it is done now, I don't think the OP is somehow indebted to offer her a home for life just for breeding a foal.
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This ^^
 
khalswitz said:
I do agree with you generally, however with my post I was countering the points made that the OP should know about contract law and be an expert on breeding just because she is a vet student. Lack of common sense I won't argue about, but the actual vet training has little to do with the above points, especially as the OP is presumably only a second year as she says she has three years to go.
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Yes, I do see your points and I know what it was like being a student. But I cannot understand how someone with an interest in veterinary medicine just simply does not do some research on genetically inherited traits, why when vet medicine is one of the hardest subjects to get into, an ability to organise the agreements they enter into isn't present.

I can only compare with the Law Society, and I got a speeding fine before I was admitted as a solicitor, which I had to declare once I applied for admission. I then had to write a pleading letter explaining the circumstances, and I was left in no doubt that any repetition or more serious offence would result in Big Trouble.

Its more that the inherent characteristics with regard to empathy and concern for animals that the OP is displaying that concern me. Of course this is just an impression of an internet site and may well be wrong. The comments about taking time off her studies to deal with this left me baffled-what does she expect when breeding a foal?!
 
The real issue hear is, IMO, the tardy loan contract that was drawn up - I would think it even more vital than ever that when you are loaning for the purposes of breeding you have a completely watertight agreement - there is a lot larger margin for error than your standard loan. As thinks are, I do think the best solution would be to sit around a table with the owner and discuss things sensibly.

I think the witch hunt that has ensued here is completely OTT, the OP hasn't done anything wrong nor has she suggested the mare be PTS. I personally would be having a mare like that PTS if I considered it dangerous.
 
Mithras said:
Yes, I do see your points and I know what it was like being a student. But I cannot understand how someone with an interest in veterinary medicine just simply does not do some research on genetically inherited traits, why when vet medicine is one of the hardest subjects to get into, an ability to organise the agreements they enter into isn't present.

I can only compare with the Law Society, and I got a speeding fine before I was admitted as a solicitor, which I had to declare once I applied for admission. I then had to write a pleading letter explaining the circumstances, and I was left in no doubt that any repetition or more serious offence would result in Big Trouble.

Its more that the inherent characteristics with regard to empathy and concern for animals that the OP is displaying that concern me. Of course this is just an impression of an internet site and may well be wrong. The comments about taking time off her studies to deal with this left me baffled-what does she expect when breeding a foal?!
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I think the difference there is that you had an actual legal infraction there. (Correct my terminology please if wrong :P) whereas as yet the OP has shown a lack of forethought but hash;t legally done anything wrong. Why should the RCVS take a stance? If she PTS'd this horse without permission, and the owner sued her, I reckon she'd be in a very delicate situation when it came time to try and rise to RCVS membership - if the University didn't get involved before then. But she hasn't done this, and did say in her first post that she was trying to get written permission, if not give the horse back. And just a disagreement over a loan contract, and trying to return the horse, surely is a civil matter, and therefore why should that be referred to the RCVS?

However I do think breeding a foal whilst at uni is a bit of a stupid move, and wouldn't defend her at all over that. And not looking into loan contracts fully before loaning is also just stupid - she should be intelligent enough to know that. I certainly did when loaning a horse - and I did it three years before even getting accepted to vet school!
 
I have to admit I have learnt something from this thread....I never realised that people loaned brood mares for just one foal and then returned, I have always assumed that they were loaned the same as other horses, for either a fixed term or indefinitely, and the loaner could then breed from them as often as they wished. :(

OP you said the loan agreement doesn't state how much notice you have to give but does it say that you would return the mare at weaning? If you know the owner received your letter giving a months notice of terminating the loan I would send another letter saying that you wanted in writing either an address for the mare to go to or her request for her to be pts or you will start billing her for the mares livery.
 
khalswitz said:
I think the difference there is that you had an actual legal infraction there. (Correct my terminology please if wrong :P) whereas as yet the OP has shown a lack of forethought but hash;t legally done anything wrong. Why should the RCVS take a stance?
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Its made quite clear to everyone entering the profession that anything which you do which does not meet the standards required of a professional in that field might result in disciplinary proceedings. This would include any conduct which is merely civil which might transgress the professional standards expected or even the way a professional is expected to conduct themselves in public life. There is a catch all of bringing the profession into disrepute, and this is why professions have governing bodies with the power to strike off. Its not just the legal profession, its the medical profession, the teaching profession, pharmacists, and so on.

Therefore, projecting, if the OP was sued for pts a horse which did not belong to her, which is what some posters (thankfully not the OP) are suggesting, this would be something which affected her potential professional competence, and should be declared when she applies for admission (otherwise she would risk it being found out).

I honestly am really shocked at what I've read from the OP on this thread and her attitude - if that's a witch hunt on here then so be it, because if she wants to be a vet, she had better learn about the standards of professional behaviour that are expected of her.
 
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amymay said:
Why??
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Because I know how much work *I* had whilst at vet school, and it only gets worse as the years go on... you have very little free time. And proper handling of a foal is time-consuming. I know how much trouble I had finding time with my horse - and he was at home, on working livery, so I didn't have to finance his keep and could just go and ride him when I had time in my hols.

Plus the assumption that she will have the free time to break and compete it once she graduates is naive. Then she starts being on call and working 50 hours a week. I know of I think 2 horse vets who actually compete their own horses - one owns a practice and pays for grooms to look after and keep fit so he can pop on on his weekends off, and the other, a new graduate, has to get her parents to do EVERYTHING to make it work - they get horse ready, travel it to lessons/comps, she meets them once she gets out of work, and if she gets a call she leaves horse with them to sort out. It's horrendously difficult to do.

So yeah, I do think it's a bit stupid. Or at the very least not well thought through. A older happy hacker is one thing, but a baby evener? And lets face it she'll be starting out on not very much money either...
 
Mithras said:
Its made quite clear to everyone entering the profession that anything which you do which does not meet the standards required of a professional in that field might result in disciplinary proceedings. This would include any conduct which is merely civil which might transgress the professional standards expected or even the way a professional is expected to conduct themselves in public life. There is a catch all of bringing the profession into disrepute, and this is why professions have governing bodies with the power to strike off. Its not just the legal profession, its the medical profession, the teaching profession, pharmacists, and so on.

Therefore, projecting, if the OP was sued for pts a horse which did not belong to her, which is what some posters (thankfully not the OP) are suggesting, this would be something which affected her potential professional competence, and should be declared when she applies for admission (otherwise she would risk it being found out).

I honestly am really shocked at what I've read from the OP on this thread and her attitude - if that's a witch hunt on here then so be it, because if she wants to be a vet, she had better learn about the standards of professional behaviour that are expected of her.
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I think that is a really unfair statement without knowing all the facts.
I think the only thing OP could be critiscised for is entering into a loan agreement with insufficient contract in place, and maybe dubious decision relating to breeding from an unsuitable mare.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that this mare (and the resulting foal) have not been looked after with due care and attention, and there is nothing to suggest that they will not continue to be looked after.

The OP just wants to return this horse to the owner, which is their right. If the owner is being tricky then that is a situation the OP will need to resolve. The OP hasn't said they are going to PTS without owners written consent (that was suggested by others, incorrectly imo). There is also nothing to be ashamed of in putting down a mare with health and behavioural issues.
 
Mithras said:
Its made quite clear to everyone entering the profession that anything which you do which does not meet the standards required of a professional in that field might result in disciplinary proceedings. This would include any conduct which is merely civil which might transgress the professional standards expected or even the way a professional is expected to conduct themselves in public life. There is a catch all of bringing the profession into disrepute, and this is why professions have governing bodies with the power to strike off. Its not just the legal profession, its the medical profession, the teaching profession, pharmacists, and so on.

I honestly am really shocked at what I've read from the OP on this thread and her attitude - if that's a witch hunt on here then so be it, because if she wants to be a vet, she had better learn about the standards of professional behaviour that are expected of her.
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Yes, the RCVS has a code of conduct like what you describe. But equally I don't see them striking off a vet for trying to return a horse on loan and the owner refusing to take it. How does that bring the profession into disrepute? The OP HASN'T even suggested PTSing without permission - she was trying to get written permission or else return.

Posting about it on the internet sounding callous is another story... but what the OP has actually done doesn't merit being struck off. If she spoke to the BVA legal advice dept she'd likely get a hell of a lot more support than a shouting down.
 
I always say that there are far worse things that can happen to a horse than PTS. A mare like this will be passed on and passed on, people will think they can square her up and she is likely to be abused, her temperament will suffer and she will be badly treated because of it. To me PTS is the best thing for her, but as others have said, OP, get written permission from her owner first.

Regarding the comments that the foal will inherit her temperament, this is not a fait accompli, I know a horse whose abused mother was similar to the mare in question, this horse has an exceptionally good temperament.
 
I do understand what the difference is between this loan and any other loan. I have loaned out my ponies on several occasions and its a common occurrence to loan out native pony brood mares and stallions, as long as the purpose of the loan is clear, preferably a written contract, for breeding loan usually the relevant society need a fee or else they will not register the foal.
The period or the purpose of the loan has come to the end and now its the responsibility of the owner to make arrangements for her and its sounds like having her PTS may be the best for her long term interests. As long as the loaner is caring for her well I do not understand why her being a vet student is nether here nor there, her problem is getting the owner to take responsibility for their animal.
I have a couple of brood mares on loan, because of poor handling in their past both have handling issues, one is especially bad to catch, the other is a madam and needs sedating for her feet done. I also have one that I have had since a yearling and she can be a bit of a witch. All these mares have had foals that have developed normally, have been easy to handle and have gone on to a competitive career. The two mares that are on breeding loan it is understood that they will be PTS if they are unwell or I can no longer keep them. It hard enough to find homes for animals with out problems, I took these knowing their problems because of the stock they have produced.
 
What a ridiculous situation! Why didn't op just buy a well bred foal? Oh because it's cheaper to use some poor mare to breed your own then get shot of the mare.

If I were you op id get the poor mare pts one way or another (seeing as nobody wants her) pay it yourself if you have to, and either put the foal on DIY to make it cheaper or sell it and concentrate on your bloody uni course ffs. How you can attend uni, put in the 30+ study hours that you are meant to do, AND pay a foal the attention it NEEDS is beyond me.
 
I do feel sorry for the poor mare in all this as it seems she was fine until she foaled (unless that is not the case?). However, the OP looks to have entered into a loan agreement and, as a loan agreement the horse generally is/will be returned to the owner at some point within the conditions of the loan. I think it's disgraceful the owner appears to be washing her hands of this poor horse :(

I don't get how people can be so callous or indeed hide their head in the sand when it comes to the reality of horse ownership and the possibility your horse may need to be PTS. poor mare :(
 
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