Loan gone sour! Advice please!

EmmaB said:
What a ridiculous situation! Why didn't op just buy a well bred foal? Oh because it's cheaper to use some poor mare to breed your own then get shot of the mare.

If I were you op id get the poor mare pts one way or another (seeing as nobody wants her) pay it yourself if you have to, and either put the foal on DIY to make it cheaper or sell it and concentrate on your bloody uni course ffs. How you can attend uni, put in the 30+ study hours that you are meant to do, AND pay a foal the attention it NEEDS is beyond me.
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Well luckily you're not doing it then.

The foal is on FULL livery, so all the touching concern for OPs studies is a little misplaced. If people bothered to actually read what the OP says they'd know that ;)

But then, that would be faaaar to easy!

These kind of threads are incredibly nasty. I used to just pass them by but after it happened to me on my puppy thread I realise how much it can really upset people, even though I'm very tough.
I doubt most of you would have said this to OPs face....
 
EmmaB said:
What a ridiculous situation! Why didn't op just buy a well bred foal? Oh because it's cheaper to use some poor mare to breed your own then get shot of the mare.

If I were you op id get the poor mare pts one way or another (seeing as nobody wants her) pay it yourself if you have to, and either put the foal on DIY to make it cheaper or sell it and concentrate on your bloody uni course ffs. How you can attend uni, put in the 30+ study hours that you are meant to do, AND pay a foal the attention it NEEDS is beyond me.
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Well, this has to be the icing on the cake as far as this thread goes.

Where do you think foals come from - oh yes a poor old mare.
Where is it written anywhere that you can't attend university (oh, or work for that matter) and not have the time to put in to looking after a youngster?
What gives you the right to dictate on what sort of livery this youngster is kept?

Being able to study or work for 30+ hours (I work in excess of 35) a week and give the youngster the attention it needs may be beyond you - but thankfully not beyond those with the experience to do so - and time management skills.
 
I would strongly advise the OP not to put the horse down without a signed and dated written agreement from the owner just in case the owner decides to kick off and make a formal complaint to the RCVS and ask for it be refered to the fitness to practice committee.

As stated earlier I do feel sorry for the horse that has been used as a baby machine and is now to be discarded. I am amazed at how hard some people are and I just hope that the horse finds itself owned by a more caring person.
 
EmmaB said:
AND pay a foal the attention it NEEDS is beyond me.
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what attention does it need as a foal? all it needs is equine company, arguably they don't need alot of handling at all. The dam is not the OP's responsibility, either to keep or to shoot, and I'm sure they've learned their lesson on loan agreements.
 
Ponies and horses are often returned after loan, 'when they have served their purpose', usually the child has outgrown it. I have a pony who is 28 years old who has been successfully loaned numerous times. Its up to the owner to make provision for the animal, not to leave the loaner in limbo. If I had decided to have my old pony PTS at the end of his last loan that would have been my prerogative, and I would have had thought as much of him then as I care for him now, its all down to the animals quality of life, the owners circumstances and the chances of rehoming successfully.
 
honetpot said:
Ponies and horses are often returned after loan, 'when they have served their purpose', usually the child has outgrown it. I have a pony who is 28 years old who has been successfully loaned numerous times. Its up to the owner to make provision for the animal, not to leave the loaner in limbo. If I had decided to have my old pony PTS at the end of his last loan that would have been my prerogative, and I would have had thought as much of him then as I care for him now, its all down to the animals quality of life, the owners circumstances and the chances of rehoming successfully.
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Well said.
 
EmmaB said:
.... either put the foal on DIY to make it cheaper or sell it and concentrate on your bloody uni course ffs. How you can attend uni, put in the 30+ study hours that you are meant to do, AND pay a foal the attention it NEEDS is beyond me.
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Seriously?!!!
 
amymay said:
Well, this has to be the icing on the cake as far as this thread goes.

Where do you think foals come from - oh yes a poor old mare.
Where is it written anywhere that you can't attend university (oh, or work for that matter) and not have the time to put in to looking after a youngster?
What gives you the right to dictate on what sort of livery this youngster is kept?

Being able to study or work for 30+ hours (I work in excess of 35) a week and give the youngster the attention it needs may be beyond you - but thankfully not beyond those with the experience to do so - and time management skills.
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30 hours a week would have been easy when I was at vet school. We did 9-5 5 days a week of lectures and practicals, 3 hours of lectures on a Saturday morning, plus tutorials in the evening, and that wasn't counting study time!! Plus in the holidays you had work placements. I found during term time I just had to get used to a lack of sleep!

Then as a graduated vet you have to opt out of the European working time directive as 50+ hour weeks are totally normal, particularly in equine and farm. And as a new graduate vet you always end up with the rubbish on call shifts.

I wouldn't argue about time if it was a 30 hour week. But it isn't - vet med is intense. That's why I moved industries - I actually like riding and competing my horse.
 
Patterdale said:
Well luckily you're not doing it then.

The foal is on FULL livery, so all the touching concern for OPs studies is a little misplaced. If people bothered to actually read what the OP says they'd know that ;)

But then, that would be faaaar to easy!

These kind of threads are incredibly nasty. I used to just pass them by but after it happened to me on my puppy thread I realise how much it can really upset people, even though I'm very tough.
I doubt most of you would have said this to OPs face....
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Well said!
 
khalswitz said:
30 hours a week would have been easy when I was at vet school. We did 9-5 5 days a week of lectures and practicals, 3 hours of lectures on a Saturday morning, plus tutorials in the evening, and that wasn't counting study time!! Plus in the holidays you had work placements. I found during term time I just had to get used to a lack of sleep!
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That's a fair point. However, the principle remains the same.
 
EmmaB said:
How you can attend uni, put in the 30+ study hours that you are meant to do, AND pay a foal the attention it NEEDS is beyond me.
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What excactly do you think a foal requires in terms of attention? Once the foal is well fed, regularily trimmed and wormed they require little attention. 20 mins a day for a week to establish leading, then the same again for the farrier, then loading,rugging etc. Occasional correct handling is far more effective than mauling the foal every day, suffocating it with "love" and probably creating a spoilt little monster.

I wonder if the OP hadn't mentioned that they were studying to be a vet would they have saved themselves from much of the abuse they have unfortunately received
 
EmmaB said:
What a ridiculous situation! Why didn't op just buy a well bred foal? Oh because it's cheaper to use some poor mare to breed your own then get shot of the mare.

If I were you op id get the poor mare pts one way or another (seeing as nobody wants her) pay it yourself if you have to, and either put the foal on DIY to make it cheaper or sell it and concentrate on your bloody uni course ffs. How you can attend uni, put in the 30+ study hours that you are meant to do, AND pay a foal the attention it NEEDS is beyond me.
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People who read half the thread, come in with a hell of a lot of assumptions and shove their opinion down your throat are the reason this forum isn't that great anymore. People who give very bad advice like suggesting she shoot a horse she has no real legal interest in is also right up there with stupid things to write.
 
RunToEarth said:
People who read half the thread, come in with a hell of a lot of assumptions and shove their opinion down your throat are the reason this forum isn't that great anymore. People who give very bad advice like suggesting she shoot a horse she has no real legal interest in is also right up there with stupid things to write.
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This us how it goes on HHO these days. People post a query, 80 percent of responses accuse the op of neglect/ignorance/being useless, another 10 percent accuse the op of being a troll, and the remaining 10 percent who actually offer constructive advice get lost amidst the arguments.
 
Wow, what a bad day to be a student, a vet or a loanee and to have the temerity to decide to breed your own foal instead of buying someone elses - sheesh
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With regard to the mare until the owner takes her back she will be your responsibility but I expect you already realise that and will look after her accordingly. As someone already stated on here how you get her to physically take the mare back (even despite a watertight agreement) is beyond me and I'd get legal advice. I hope you have many years of fun ahead of you with your foal and I hope the situation can be resolved for all concerned including the mare.
 
Those of you who are having a go at the OP for "discarding" the mare - she actually isn't. The horses owner has already discarded her, by dumping the mare on the OP under the guise of a loan arrangement.

OP, in your recent phone call to the owner, you say that she told you she'd moved house and yard. The owner also confessed that the mare has an auto immune condition and behavioural issues and that she (the owner) would PTS.

I assume this is the first you heard of all this OP, since you state you took on the mare for breeding and that she was a typical quirky chestnut mare (or similar words) retired due to hock damage. I assume that as a vet student you wouldn't have wanted the mare for breeding had you known about her auto immune condition and that she was going to be difficult with the foal. But you're not a mind reader nor do you have a crystal ball to see the future. I don't think its fair that people are complaining at you for choosing to breed from her.

I think that the horses owner has dumped her on you to avoid paying for PTS. I assume the seller declined to give her new address since she didn't bother to tell you she moved in the first place, meaning you can't write to her. I suggest the cheapest and easiest way out of this situation is for you to send the owner a text message saying that you're willing to pay for the mare to be PTS if she, the owner, gives consent. At the moment she probably doesn't want to give consent for fear you'll expect her to pay (as she really should, being the owner. It is her responsibility and she will know this).
 
Is quite like to hear from the OP as to whether the owner has got back in touch or not. It's a rotten situation all around but this needs resolved for the sake of the mare one way or another I would do as suggested above and say that if no contact has been made then the mare will be PTS as requested by the owner and lack of contact will be taken as consent.

As I said a shame all round :(
 
bex1984 said:
This us how it goes on HHO these days. People post a query, 80 percent of responses accuse the op of neglect/ignorance/being useless, another 10 percent accuse the op of being a troll, and the remaining 10 percent who actually offer constructive advice get lost amidst the arguments.
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I love this. you're so right.
 
Don't see the point in being mean to OP regarding mistakes. Sending recorded letter, constructive. Think very good point above about owner refusing contact for fear of being charged for PTS. Also think good idea to buy mare for very nominal sum & PTS. I can understand she wasn't open about mares conditions before you took her on (as very likely you wouldn't have loaned her), but OP does know now. As a result, further breeding is not a good idea to be polite. Other options, not many with not being able to cope with work. Not a good candidate for a companion unless temperament improves with changing hormones, if remains agressive very definately not to be used as nanny, so blood bank really. If they are a no, surely PTS is right course rather than going back to owner who will lie about her health in order to farm her out for another couple of years.

Whilst owner issue, OP can improve mares lot by buying her & PTS (or paying for it with written , signed & witnessed consent from owner). That the mare is no longer needed after weaning just means it is the right time to make the decision for the situation OP finds herself in wrt mares health & owner. OP has not abused mare & is not dumping her, it is the natural time for the loan agreement (& her responsibility) to cease. That's why this problem hasn't been addressed earlier, it wasn't discussed as OP reasonably expected owner to take mare back at weaning. After that point OP would have had no idea what owners future plans were.

I have a very high quality broodmare, retired young due to injury, no genetic issues, showed immense talent & excellent temperament. We allowed a top stud to loan her a couple of years ago, who sent to to a reputable stud for covering. She didn't take (according to them problem with our proven mare - surprise surprise), we collected her from said stud (had reguarly had updates from them - they were very economical with truth) she was a bag of bones, terrible coat, owner of stud showed her true (mean, agressive & downright nasty) colours when asked what the hell they had done to our girl. She came home, we took time sorting her out physically & mentally. Our stud vet (who had bought her first filly), asked us if she could loan her which we agreed to but at vets suggestion she stayed with us where she was happy & relaxed. We did this, has worked very well, produced a superb colt. This is the only way we would loan one of our mares in the future. They pay the bills, but the mare stays with us. They come & collect a weaned foal when asked. We do all the work, but we know the mare is safe, at home & happy. Okay we are 'renting out her uterus' so she can help towards her keep. She is a broodmare, that's her job. She has produced 3 foals in 7 years, so is not over bred & has at least a year off between foals. We only breed very high quality, now knowing where foal will be going before it is even conceived. Is it unfair on her? No, she loves being a mum & blossoms when carrying. So please think before lamblasting owners who allow people to loan their broodmares, it gives some people the chance to breed their own foal (& unless you know their circumstances it is not appropriate to comment if they have the time, money etc for it), which they might otherwise never have had. This foal is wanted, has a home, it was planned. That has to be better than prolific breeding for sale which floods the markets often with cheap rubbish.
 
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EmmaB said:
What a ridiculous situation! Why didn't op just buy a well bred foal? Oh because it's cheaper to use some poor mare to breed your own then get shot of the mare.

If I were you op id get the poor mare pts one way or another (seeing as nobody wants her) pay it yourself if you have to, and either put the foal on DIY to make it cheaper or sell it and concentrate on your bloody uni course ffs. How you can attend uni, put in the 30+ study hours that you are meant to do, AND pay a foal the attention it NEEDS is beyond me.
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This would be funny if it wasn't such a pathetically sad response to a situation the poster knows diddly squit about.....
 
Black Beastie said:
Is quite like to hear from the OP as to whether the owner has got back in touch or not. It's a rotten situation all around but this needs resolved for the sake of the mare one way or another I would do as suggested above and say that if no contact has been made then the mare will be PTS as requested by the owner and lack of contact will be taken as consent.

As I said a shame all round :(
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Glad I'm not the only one on that wavelength at last.

Excellent reply Pip6 too.
 
It's just sad all round. :( The foal is on full livery so his welfare isn't really the problem here. I also agree that the mare could see far worse fates than being put to sleep peacefully, it's just a shame it got to this stage in the first place! I also don't think loaning a broodmare just for the pregnancy is that unusual.

It seems that there are two separate issues that people are picking up on - firstly the welfare of the mare, secondly the ethics of breeding from an unsuitable mare - I don't know her breeding or competition record, though from the info we've been given she doesn't sound ideal. The root of the welfare problem is that the owner didn't take responsibility for her horse when it transpired she would not come sound. I think the destruction of the mare is unfortunately the only way forward here, and I also agree that it isn't the responsibility of the loaner. Although if I had looked after this mare for a year and she had delivered me a healthy colt, I would probably feel responsible - I am admittedly a bit fluffy bunnies about horses, but it wouldn't sit well with me destroying the mare once I've used her body and 'her job is done'. Especially because I would have to look at the foal every day for however many years and be reminded of that decision. I'd give her a summer of lovely grass and sunshine before putting her down at home, just as a nod to my conscience. So yes, I would go down the 'buy for a nominal sum and PTS myself' route.
 
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Very well said, Pigeon!

Sugar_and_Spice said:
Those of you who are having a go at the OP for "discarding" the mare - she actually isn't. The horses owner has already discarded her, by dumping the mare on the OP under the guise of a loan arrangement.
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Yes, she is. OP has said that she has given "written termination that the loan ends 1st of nov and that I relinquish all financial and care responsibility.."
At the end of the day, while the mare is in the OP's care, she has a duty of care towards her, whether the owner is paying towards her upkeep or not. Monies could be recouped via small claims proceedings at a later date.

Sugar_and_Spice said:
OP, in your recent phone call to the owner, you say that she told you she'd moved house and yard. The owner also confessed that the mare has an auto immune condition and behavioural issues and that she (the owner) would PTS.

I assume this is the first you heard of all this OP, since you state you took on the mare for breeding and that she was a typical quirky chestnut mare (or similar words) retired due to hock damage. I assume that as a vet student you wouldn't have wanted the mare for breeding had you known about her auto immune condition and that she was going to be difficult with the foal. But you're not a mind reader nor do you have a crystal ball to see the future. I don't think its fair that people are complaining at you for choosing to breed from her.

I think that the horses owner has dumped her on you to avoid paying for PTS. I assume the seller declined to give her new address since she didn't bother to tell you she moved in the first place, meaning you can't write to her. I suggest the cheapest and easiest way out of this situation is for you to send the owner a text message saying that you're willing to pay for the mare to be PTS if she, the owner, gives consent. At the moment she probably doesn't want to give consent for fear you'll expect her to pay (as she really should, being the owner. It is her responsibility and she will know this).
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Awful lot of assumptions there! I find it difficult to accept that the OP knew nothing about the mare's medical issues until recently. Surely she would have asked why such a young mare had bone spurs in her hocks?
 
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Lot of assumptions about the owner too. Perhaps she is surprised to find her mare being returned as soon as it produced a foal, just in time for winter coming. Perhaps it was intended to be a long term loan, hence the lack of provision for notice period.

I have to admit, although im a competitive rider, I have very little time for people who go around killing healthy horses because its too much trouble for them to keep them. Personally wouldn't want that on my conscience.

I'm really hoping this foal will have a useful future, and remain surprised that it was not possible to examine the mare so that the various veterinary problems didn't come to light before having her covered.
 
Read the thread, this mare has major health & personality issues, at worse when in foal which came to light during / after pregnancy. We are not talking healthy horse. Horse was on breeding loan, so usual to return after weaning which is about this time of year for many foals.

Not heard of potential broodmare having 5* vetting before loan. People ask about health issues, but anyone could be economical with the truth. When we did a loan they wanted to see mare, what she had done, bloodlines & what she had produced. She has an injury which you can't see or feel, she is 100% sound, no-one would know. It took lot of investigations by previous owner to find it (only clue was she would have last few sj down at ode). Problems aren't always obvious & wouldn't even show up with a 5* including xrays.
 
I despair. Vet student should know better than to breed from such a poor choice of mare. But hey, I've spent enough time around vet students to despair of the lot of them, so no surprises there.

Your attitude towards the mare is callous, but in terms of the current predicament, yes the owner is to blame. By the sounds of things, it should've been shot a long time ago.
 
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I'm not at all callous, my only care is for the mare. I could spout condemnation, but it wont change the situation or help the OP try to do what is right for the horse. The mares problems have come to light, just think it is in her interests to do the deed once foal weaned rather than send her back to owner. The owner who wasn't responsible enough to say she wasn't suitable to be used as a broodmare in the first place & hid her problems (& problems can be hidden even from an experienced eye). I'm in no way saying she was a good type to breed from, who was wrong or right. How will it benefit the mare to make her go through a winter with someone who may try & pass her off next year as suitable again to possibly an even less experienced person? It should have been done before, but it wasn't. I'm not condoning inexperienced breeders, at least OP has kept them, & will continue to keep foal at a stud so there is some back up. If a lesson is learnt from this, then better advice may be passed onto others considering breeding their own when she is in practice.

Or is it I'm callous as I have a broodmare I have allowed to be loaned? I don't believe in breeding for the sake of it. We had only bred two foals from our mare in 5 years, hardly abusing her. Both sold to loving permanent homes, we get emails every 2-4 weeks on how one is doing, the other went to our stud vet, we reguarly go & watch her compete. So when we were approached by vet about her wanting another foal from our mare, i.e. 'loan' her, what's so evil in agreeing? The foal, even before conception, whatever it was had a home for life. He was bred because he was wanted. Tis has to be a huge improvement of studs/individuals that breed large numbers, often poor quality, to send to market on the hope that they sell? This lady (& I would also hope a vet student would be good at assessing conformation & suitability, have the experience, but that's another issue, she chose what she felt would suit her) has bred one foal to keep herself. Whatever its future, at least it is wanted & will be cared for.

The mare should never have been used, but she was. What's the best way forward for the horse given its medical problems, 'typical chestnut mare' nature (which is rubbish, mines sweeter & calmer than my grey)? You have an owner who hasn't been honest about her problems & now refusing to take her back at weaning (when you would return a loan broodmare). Would you send her back to a situation where she might be put through it again? OP has said she can't afford 2, & there is no reason why she would have expected to have 2 past weaning, that's why she did a loan. Options with the mares best interests in mind?

What if you saw the post 'I have a mare with irreparably damaged hocks, had autoimmune disease, can't be ridden & aggressive temperament, what should I do with winter coming on? Should I put her out on breeding loan again even with her issues & it making her excessively foal proud?' Think I can hazard a guess at the advice that would come back.

Btw loaning commonplace between studs to introduce new lines. Often they send their mare away to loanee stud to have a foal by the resident stallion, then as 'payment' (aside from its keep being paid for best part of 2 years) mare is returned to owner back in foal to same stallion & they keep the resultant foal.
 
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poor op im not surprised she has run for the hills!
Im sorry but unless everyone laying into her has never sold a horse on when they no longer needed it , had outgrown it or wanted something better/faster/flashier/ younger then they have nt got a leg to stand on.
 
luckyoldme said:
poor op im not surprised she has run for the hills!
Im sorry but unless everyone laying into her has never sold a horse on when they no longer needed it , had outgrown it or wanted something better/faster/flashier/ younger then they have nt got a leg to stand on.
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TBF, the responsible breeding issue stands, regardless of that.

And nope, never sold any or wanted anything other than mine to be the best they can be. But that's irrelevant as I don't have a problem with shooting it / sending it back / etc, I just think they were really daft, and poorly educated given their future profession to breed from such a mare.
 
JFTD said:
TBF, the responsible breeding issue stands, regardless of that.

And nope, never sold any or wanted anything other than mine to be the best they can be. But that's irrelevant as I don't have a problem with shooting it / sending it back / etc, I just think they were really daft, and poorly educated given their future profession to breed from such a mare.
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What do you mean responsible breeding? If the OP is to be believed (and I'm not going to think otherwise because I have to go on 'face value') she/he intends to keep the foal. There are far more instances of irresponsible breeding - namely stallions over here in with herds of mares popping out foals every year. Connemara foals (decent breeding) are going for next to nothing at the moment. At least the OP did a bit of research. You can put the best of two types together and still get a donkey anyway.
 
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