Loan gone sour! Advice please!

doriangrey said:
What do you mean responsible breeding? If the OP is to be believed (and I'm not going to think otherwise because I have to go on 'face value') she/he intends to keep the foal. There are far more instances of irresponsible breeding - namely stallions over here in with herds of mares popping out foals every year. Connemara foals (decent breeding) are going for next to nothing at the moment. At least the OP did a bit of research. You can put the best of two types together and still get a donkey anyway.
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I mean breeding from a highly unsuitable mare. The idea of a vet breeding from anything with an AI disease astounds me. Just because there's worse going on out there doesn't make it ok.
 
JFTD said:
I mean breeding from a highly unsuitable mare. The idea of a vet breeding from anything with an AI disease astounds me. Just because there's worse going on out there doesn't make it ok.
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This wasn't revealed until after the OP contacted the owner to return the loan broodmare if I'm reading it right. What is your idea of responsible breeding - or anyone on HHO come to think of it?

ETA - the OP wasn't a vet.
 
doriangrey said:
This wasn't revealed until after the OP contacted the owner to return the loan broodmare if I'm reading it right. What is your idea of responsible breeding - or anyone on HHO come to think of it?

ETA - the OP wasn't a vet.
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The OP was a vet student, so presumably had access to expert advice if she had wanted it. If she didn't know about the Auto-immune problem, why did she think the mare had hock spurs and why on earth didn't she ask? A small amount of research would have suggested that this mare was not an ideal brood mare.
 
doriangrey said:
ETA - the OP wasn't a vet.
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I was just about to say this. The OP seems to be getting especially slated because they are a vet. They are not a vet, they are a student.

I'm sure everybody has made unwise decisions at some point in their lives. Bashing the OP doesn't help with the current situation. I'm sure given some of the responses given here the OP will think twice about returning to HHO for advice
 
minimilton said:
I was just about to say this. The OP seems to be getting especially slated because they are a vet. They are not a vet, they are a student.

I'm sure everybody has made unwise decisions at some point in their lives. Bashing the OP doesn't help with the current situation. I'm sure given some of the responses given here the OP will think twice about returning to HHO for advice
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Good, she will have more time to spend with the foal she chose to breed, and hopefully with the unfortunate mare whose womb she used!
 
YorksG said:
The OP was a vet student, so presumably had access to expert advice if she had wanted it. If she didn't know about the Auto-immune problem, why did she think the mare had hock spurs and why on earth didn't she ask? A small amount of research would have suggested that this mare was not an ideal brood mare.
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Then what makes an ideal broodmare? Is auto-immunity hereditary, I have no idea tbh. Do some people take chances, I'll bet they do. I think what I'm trying to say is that you can pick the best of the best these days and there seems to be more problems with kissing spines and laminitis and god knows what else these days (I'm not pointing fingers). Maybe indiscriminate breeding is just as much to blame as a diminishing gene pools amongst competition/breed societies. Anyway, I'll answer my own question, irresponsible breeding imo is when the breeder doesn't take responsibility for the offspring.
 
doriangrey said:
Then what makes an ideal broodmare? Is auto-immunity hereditary, I have no idea tbh. .
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Yep! (I know this because I have a hereditary auto-immune disease!)

The thing is, even with the best intentions, someone's circumstances might change meaning they have to sell the horse, and if it is well bred (for soundness, sanity, ability etc) it stands a much better chance at a good life. Simple as that really. So taking responsibility for the outcome after it is born is only a part of responsible breeding in my opinion :)
 
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I'm so bloody stupid. I keep coming on here hoping that a fair few of you have had a personality transplant so that you can answer some posts with civility instead of sarcasm and cruelty especially when it's a subjest you have little knowledge off. I'm wrong, yet again.

Goodbye.
 
Pigeon said:
Yep! (I know this because I have a hereditary auto-immune disease!)

The thing is, even with the best intentions, someone's circumstances might change meaning they have to sell the horse, and if it is well bred (for soundness, sanity, ability etc) it stands a much better chance at a good life. Simple as that really. So taking responsibility for the outcome after it is born is only a part of responsible breeding in my opinion :)
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Agreed :) When I said responsibility I meant in all circumstances including PTS if necessary. I mean not just breeding 'proven' horses and hoping the offspring will sell but being able to accommodate their needs if they don't. Look at it this way, breeding horses for meat isn't bad breeding as long as they are selling and not being neglected or harmed on their way to slaughter. I'm way over-thinking this at this point anyway, I hope original poster, foal, and mare can have a happy ending.
 
doriangrey said:
This wasn't revealed until after the OP contacted the owner to return the loan broodmare if I'm reading it right. What is your idea of responsible breeding - or anyone on HHO come to think of it?

ETA - the OP wasn't a vet.
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Vet student, for the purposes, there's no difference. And I say that as someone with a reasonable knowledge of the course and the course content.

My idea of responsible breeding is the choice of proven stock with no behavioural or physical issues which are likely to have a genetic component, bred in moderation relative to the demand.

The only exceptions to that are where extremely desirable traits outweigh a behavioural or physical issue which can be handled by management or is not likely to impair the welfare of the offspring. i.e. a very fast racehorse, you can forgive it being a twit to handle, or similar.

The OP didn't state she didn't know about the AID in advance. I would have thought (if she were tackling the matter responsibly) she will have investigated why the animal was unsound and had spurs, and considered the issue before choosing to breed from the mare.

I don't breed horses. I do, however, have a background in genetics. And yes, AI diseases do usually have a genetic basis.
 
JFTD said:
Vet student, for the purposes, there's no difference. And I say that as someone with a reasonable knowledge of the course and the course content.

My idea of responsible breeding is the choice of proven stock with no behavioural or physical issues which are likely to have a genetic component, bred in moderation relative to the demand.

The only exceptions to that are where extremely desirable traits outweigh a behavioural or physical issue which can be handled by management or is not likely to impair the welfare of the offspring. i.e. a very fast racehorse, you can forgive it being a twit to handle, or similar.

The OP didn't state she didn't know about the AID in advance. I would have thought (if she were tackling the matter responsibly) she will have investigated why the animal was unsound and had spurs, and considered the issue before choosing to breed from the mare.

I don't breed horses. I do, however, have a background in genetics. And yes, AI diseases do usually have a genetic basis.
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If there's no difference, why bother to finish your studies? Isn't that rather like saying if you are a medical student you can pass yourself off as a doctor? There are many disciplines to specialise in aren't there that require more expertize than being merely a student? There are a lot of breeders that put temperament high on the list of attributes - conformation alone does not make a horse. Would I feel responsible for breeding a very fast racehorse if it was 'a twit to handle', - I guess I would care how fast it is if it's going to knock somebody's head off - but then I suppose there are those who think it's acceptable.
 
doriangrey said:
If there's no difference, why bother to finish your studies? Isn't that rather like saying if you are a medical student you can pass yourself off as a doctor? There are many disciplines to specialise in aren't there that require more expertize than being merely a student? .
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I think its the notion that, with veterinary medicine being one of the hardest and most competitive courses to get into, and the UK Clinical Aptitude Test and interview and background of students all being taken into account, you would expect there to be a certain aptitude, hopefully reflected in attitude, there from a certain stage. Medical students, for example, are required to demonstrate a desire to help people, along with other traits. I would have thought a veterinary student would demonstrate a desire to care for animals (perhaps the OP is simply coming across badly here and has a rather practical view of animals), and a recognition of the issues of overbreeding and how time consuming bringing up and training a young horse can be, so that it doesn't contribute to yet another unwisely bred young horse on the market with behavioural issues. Not that I am saying this will happen.

Breeding is so risky, I would have thought an inexperienced breeder would be best to breed from a mare they have owned or known, with known traits and history.

At least the foal has been born healthy, which is a success even to the harshest of critics.
 
doriangrey said:
If there's no difference, why bother to finish your studies? Isn't that rather like saying if you are a medical student you can pass yourself off as a doctor? There are many disciplines to specialise in aren't there that require more expertize than being merely a student?

because the scientific background of vet science is covered in the first two years of study. That includes genetics. Thus the OP is as educated in the matter as she will ever be, unless she specialises / goes into genetic research.

There are a lot of breeders that put temperament high on the list of attributes - conformation alone does not make a horse. Would I feel responsible for breeding a very fast racehorse if it was 'a twit to handle', - I guess I would care how fast it is if it's going to knock somebody's head off - but then I suppose there are those who think it's acceptable.
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If you're breeding the horse to race, yes you prioritise performance over ease of handling. If you're breeding any horse, for any purpose other than meat, you probably want to avoid the high risk of painful, career-limiting autoimmune disease.

You asked for a general definition of responsible breeding, so I gave you mine. That doesn't mean that it's all relevant to the OP. The comment about weighing good and bad traits is because it's not a perfect world. But that doesn't make choosing to breed from a horse with a genetic condition which has had a career ending effect on it a good idea.
 
JFTD said:
If you're breeding the horse to race, yes you prioritise performance over ease of handling. If you're breeding any horse, for any purpose other than meat, you probably want to avoid the high risk of painful, career-limiting autoimmune disease.

You asked for a general definition of responsible breeding, so I gave you mine. That doesn't mean that it's all relevant to the OP. The comment about weighing good and bad traits is because it's not a perfect world. But that doesn't make choosing to breed from a horse with a genetic condition which has had a career ending effect on it a good idea.
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Fair enough, I did ask ;) But imo a fast horse is no good if its temperament is limiting. As for breeding, then is the only way forward genetic testing and would/should this be limited only to performance horses? I don't know the answer and why I got so wound up about this one. I think because I got the impression the OP did want this foal and did look into it and there are foals being given away here simply because they couldn't be bothered to even give it that much thought. My little Connie X cost me just 100 euro - I've spent 3 times that already on haylage for her - and she wasn't a rescue, just another out in the field like so many others.
 
doriangrey said:
Fair enough, I did ask ;) But imo a fast horse is no good if its temperament is limiting.

As for breeding, then is the only way forward genetic testing and would/should this be limited only to performance horses?
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We-ell, my point was mostly meant to allow for professional horses really. I wouldn't want something with a rubbish temperament either! But if it's a grumpy git in the stable but temperamentally and physically sound and talented enough to win the National, I'm not gonna criticise someone for breeding it! That said, the OP's horse doesn't seem to be very well chosen for temperament either!

Genetic testing - well I guess you could screen the horse in utero if you know what you're looking for. Not all genetic disorders are well characterised enough to be screened for. And I'm not sure how feasible that is. Given there are plenty of sound of mind and body mares out there, why not just breed from one of them? It would be cheaper and easier :)

To be honest, we're arguing two sides of the same coin. I completely agree about over-breeding, and I see poor breeding choices as an extension of that. The OP certainly seems to be keen to keep the foal - which is great, but if it does end up with the same AID as the dam, it'll probably end up in the same situation - and I think breeding horses to suffer is always a bad thing, whether that be by breeding too many to secure their futures, or by breeding from stock which isn't sensibly chosen!
 
Op nastiness aside, not interested in the terminology wrangling going on ATM, have you heard anything from the mares owner as to the fate of the mare?

I'm not getting at you genuinely interested as the whole point if this thread seems to have been lost in the comparative requirements of vet student or not being relevant as in all honesty if you hadn't shared that piece of info if imagine this thread would be different ;)
 
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