loan horse, passport kept by owner

[0ldmare]

I've had a horse on loan for the past 10-12 years. The owners kept his passport and were VERY reluctant to hand it over, I imagine in case I sold the horse or something (though where I'd find a buyer for a horse thats an insurance right off complete with LOU freezemark I'm not sure )

Anyhow its never overly worried me until a conversation this evening where a friend said I would have problems if he had to be put down for any reason. (He's in very good health BTW so not v likely at present )

Do you know if its true that it would get very messy if he got eg bad colic and had to be pts and I didnt have his passport?

Owners have never visited him so cant think they are overly concerned for his welfare just seem to have a 'thing' about passports....

 

[zigzag]

Whenever I have had a horse PTS I've never been asked for its passport... (could be my vets though

 

[0ldmare]

Oh thats good zigzag, thanks.

 

[ponydi]

If you transport a horse anywhere you're supposed to have the passport with them

 

[LovesCobs]

when my daughter had a horse on loan the owner kept the passport.

but when thinking about what you're saying there could be many times when your horse needed PTS and you wouldnt have a passport with you. when i kept mine on livery I kept my horses passports at home, if I needed it in an emergency it would have been at least a 40 minute round trip? do people usually keep them at their yard? mine are at home now)
how far away are the owners should you need the passport and wouldnt they have the ultimate decission anyway?

 

[SNORKEY]

Our old mare was pts last summer and we were never asked for the passport. I can understand why the owner has never wanted to hand it over, when I was thinking of putting my boy on loan I wasn't going to let them have his passport even though your ment to apparently.

 

[FfionWinnie]

My loan pony didn't have a passport at all and when he became critically ill suddenly and was pts at the vet no one was interested or asked for it. I transported him to the vet without it as well. I didn't know he didn't have one until a short time before his death and had intended to get one, before anyone has a dickey fit at me.

If you have had the horse for 12 years I'd demand they give it over however!

 

[Star_Chaser]

isn't there some legality regarding the passport staying with the horse in question?

 

[Antw23uk]

I was told it was illegal to keep a horse without a passport so whoever has the horse has to have the passport?

My loan nearly fell through at the last minute because the owner wanted to keep her passport and i said i wouldnt take her unless i had the passport

I have horse and passport. Its in her name and like the OP ... i doubt i could give her away let alone sell her But I dont care much for all that coz i luvs her lots and lots

 

[horseandshoes77]

well our boy was sold whilst on loan...few years back now...but I did give them passport as I believe through defra website it had no bearing on ownership.... horse was sold up to Scotland who have very different laws.. however I spoke to a female police officer from my area who basically said she was not convinced I had not sold horse as she was a horse woman and she had 2 out on loan who she always kept the passport for... I then told her she was in the wrong as horse should have passport with them and it is in no way a proof of ownership (similar to a log book not being proof of ownership) but she pretty much said she wouldn't help, I went over her head and low and behold we got our boy back..but just goes to show how many people believe passport means ownership therefore are terrified to hand it over !

 

[FfionWinnie]

I think it is illegal to move one without a passport, not "keep" one without a passport.

 

[hobo]

Do not worry in a putting to sleep situation the vet is not going to be worried about a passport if the animal is suffering.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Passport has to be with the horse, even in Scotland. When my boy went on loan i had to give his passport to the loaner. I took a photocopy of the passport and also took a picture of the passport sitting on a newspaper clearly dated and front page showing.

All this was just proof that at the time the horse went on loan I was his owner. I also informed the horse passport agency the horse was on loan and under no circumstances were any changes of ownership to be made as they were un-authorised.

If none of that worked then nothing was going to.

 

[melbiswas]

I have given my loaners a copy of the passport. I believe the passport has to be produced within a given time and if it should arise I could get it to the Police if necessary.

I have never been asked for a passport when I have had my old ponies PTS at a planned time with a reputable slaughterman. This has concerned me a little as I think this could be carried out without the owners knowledge or permission.

 

[suffolkmare]

The system is certainly flawed, even top sports horses have question marks over their ownership...
Passports are not proof of ownership, but seem to be considered as such since they are an "official" document. The receipt is the only proof of purchase. The problem of who makes decisions about a horse on loan needs to be sorted at the outset and put in writing so that if a situation arises re. vet treatment, pts, move yards, then both parties know where they stand. A vet will be concerned with the welfare of the horse first, then with who will pay the bill. The insurance company will deal with the policy holder (so be clear who is renewing each year and informing the company of any changes, eg. use of horse). A vet may need to record meds on the passport, and for annual vacs, etc. it is easier to do this at the time so the actual serial/batch no. can't be disputed if, say, the horse had an adverse reaction.
You are wise to think ahead OP as your horse isn't getting younger, but I wish you luck in sorting out this situation.

 

[Sophstar]

This was the battle i had with the owner of my loan cob who didn't hand it over, then 'lost it' and then he disappeared into thin air himself. The issue only arose again with the bleedin' horsemeat scandal and my vets refusing to hand out further danilon without seeing his passport. As the owner hasn't been seen or replied to any contact that has been attempted in the past 5+ years the vets decided to treat cob as an abandonment case and I had to arrange for them to come sort a new passport and microchipping in return for the danilon. They had to be seen to addressing 'confirmation of horses not going into the food chain'. The vet herself said it was their fault and they weren't hot enough on asking to check passports before bute was supplied. I know i was never asked.

 

[mandwhy]

Passport won't matter, a vet should prioritise the animal's welfare. I haven't been asked for it when I've had the vet out anyway. I have a pony on loan that I don't have the passport for, I will need it when I take her showing which the owner is keen for me to do, so who knows.

You'd think after that period of time they'd trust you a bit! And if they've never visited you might wonder why they don't sign the horse over to you, oh well its good that they want to keep track of it being LOU I guess.

 

[Clippy]

Provided horses is not PTS in an abbatoir you won't need the passport. After the horse has died you're supposed to surrender it to the PIA and they can send it back to you if you want it, though they will stamp "DECEASED" on every page.

However, you SHOULD have the passport to hand. The correct procedure is for the loaners to contact the PIA and tell them the horse is on loan and no change of ownership should take place. They should also have a contract with your signature.

 

[teasle]

Both vets I have used made a point of seing my horses passport the first time they attended him. No other time hve they asked for it. So expect they made a note in his records that they had seen it.

 

[JillA]

The passport has never been proof of ownership (let's face it, getting another one is incredibly easy anyway) but if it isn't with the horse, where does the vet enter details of vaccinations, drugs etc and check whether or not it is eventually destined to enter the food chain? Has the vet never asked to see it when doing boosters?

 

[Polos Mum]

I too have had a horse PTS with no mention of passport and that wasn't an emerancy situation. I have a horse out on loan and I still have his passport (I don't really know why as she could so easily get another one if she did want to sell him!)
According to the Defra web site:

You will need to have the passport available at all times except for-

•When the horse is stabled or at pasture and the passport can be produced without delay
•Moved on foot temporarily from its stable or paddock ( eg ridden out) and the passport can be produced within 3 hours
•When the horse is taking part in an event or competition which requires the horse to leave the event venue
•If the horse is transported under emergency conditions

So actually if your horses needed to go to horspital in an emergancy that would be fine without the passport.

I have never heard of anyone checking passports other than at BE ODE's.

 

[Shysmum]

I really would not worry about the passport thingy - clearly they are not worth the paper (or money) they are printed on. Just useful too have your jab stickers put into I guess.

 

[MrsMozart]

Need one when traveling horse, (or at least be able to have it produced within x days I believe).

I haven't needed one when had horses put to sleep.

I do it them to hand when horses' vaccs are done or other injections given.

 

[indie999]

Wasnt asked at all last year for planned PTS passport and I am guessing a vet has a duty to care??? so in an emergency they would PTS for welfare etc. So I wouldnt worry. ie if your horse was hit by a car on the road am 100% certain it would be PTS at scene ie who would have a passport then.If I loaned a horse no way would they have the passport.