Loan horses being sold on

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AutumnRose

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I don't want to say much on a public forum but has anyone had any experience of handling/being involved with situations where loan horses have been sold on without permission of the owner?

Does anyone know anywhere to get advice on this? I've spoken to a solicitor friend briefly but i suspect i'd need a specialist.

If anyone would mind me PMing them to ask a few questions i'd be HUGELY grateful, or if anyone can point me in the direction of advice on the subject.
 
No, but I have frequently followed the posts where this has happened. I would firstly contact on MHOL (missing horses on loan) who normally post in the stolen/trace sections. They are a complete mine of information and should be your first port of call.

The police do not seem to want to become interested but that does seem to vary between forces so do bear that in mind. Passports do not mean legal ownership.

Good luck, MHOL have had success so I will keep my fingers crossed for you.
 
Thanks for that. I'll look them up. It's a funny situation as the horse doesn't need tracing. It was stumbling across the horse at a show with a new owner that meant the whole situation became apparent!!

They might be able to point me in the right direction. Peculiar the police aren't interested as it is theft!
 
Perhaps have a look on the missing/stolen section, there may be people speaking about it on there.

How awful, hope it sorts out. The police are naughty. They should get involved, it is theft, of an expensive item too! They would for a stolen car.
 
It is a difficult situation from a legal point of view and if you have willingly passed the animal or indeed any other goods to somebody else for their use the police are powerless and will tellk you it is a civil matter and they can do nothing.You most likely will get a judgement in a civil case but it will be expensive(Circa20k) and all the cost initially will fall on the Petitioner with no legal aid available.Having been there I am afraid you may need to take the view however unpalatable is it worth it. I am afraid the sooner people draw up agreements and dont just trust people the better,because again from experience somebody who you class as a friend is just as likely to do this as a stranger.
 
There is a signed agreement in place. Horse would never have gone without one.

I suspect it wouldn't be worthwhile to pursue. Especially as horse is now in a loving and cared for home.

It makes me so fuming mad though i can't tell you! It's ridiculous that they should be allowed to get away with it!!!
 
If you had an agreement in place it would be a lot easier .Did you speak to the new people as technically they have your property and they are the ones who have ultimately been wronged by the other party. If you have an agreement in place the Police should act as they have in effect received stolen goods that would need to be returned to you,leaving them out of pocket! I know how you feel though and they should be brought to book .You may need to lean on the police a bit to make them take action but your agreement as long as it is not worded ambiguously should draw them to the conclusion an offence has been committed. Just a thought was the horse insured?
 
I did speak to the new people yes. And am in constant contact with them because they are friends of friends and lovely. I'm happy to know horse is loved and cared for. I don't really want the horse back to be honest but someone should not be allowed to get away with selling on and making money on my property!

Horse wasn't insured by me, no.
 
I wonder if you could start a small claims court action against them? You have to show you have tried to resolve the situation, so a recorded delivery letter stating that they have X amount of time to either return the horse and any kit which went with it or pay you the value otherwise you'll file an action against them. When they don't respond, file a case. Costs £60 but you can add this to what they owe you. Chances are they'll never pay up, but assuming they find in your favour, then it will seriously impact their ability to get credit etc, and you can then put a charge on any property they own so when it gets sold you get paid back etc.

I think I'd be taking some legal advice about doing that if the police were not interested.
 
Because its a possession issue it cannot be dealt with through small claims if only it could.The court fees will add up to over 1k alone just to get a hearing and if they contest it solicitors would need to get involved .Also to get a possession order now the Petitioner would likely have to get the order against the people who now have the horse so the person responsible suffers in no way.Small claims only covers things where you are owed money so because there was a loan agreement in place they dont actually owe money to the original owner.However I think the police should be made to take action under criminal law and not just sweep it under the carpet.If I was you as you do not feel to disappointed with the new rider I would contact the person who loaned the horse and say you want the money from the sale or you will be pushing charges and see what reaction you get! Just at this stage make their life uncomfortable this will work most times.
 
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Do they not owe you the money from the sale though? Because they sold your property and kept the proceeds?

I agree, I'd be making a huge nuisance of myself at the police station right now....
 
SpottedCat said:
Do they not owe you the money from the sale though? Because they sold your property and kept the proceeds?

I agree, I'd be making a huge nuisance of myself at the police station right now....
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Morally yes but you had no contract of sale because it was a loan agreement you can only enforce a money claim where a bargain has been made .I would be giving them grief and if the new owners are decent people get them on your side and get them to complain to the police as they have been subject to a fraud as well.I think judging from the OPs comments they are happy with the horses situation now so its a question of trying to make the middle party see the errors of their ways.
 
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The problem about the police (from having read previous posts on this) is that it is very hard to prove ownership, becomes a civil matter which is why most police forces are not keen to get involved. However you at least have a contract in place and at the very least I would look to be making a massive and embarrassing pain of myself with the people who sold on, particularly as you have the "new" owners on your side (who are also probably worried you might try to take the horse back). Legals bods on here... who has the better claim in this instance? the original owner? or the person who was sold what was effectively stolen goods?
 
My immediate thought was actually a small claims action. But i have no idea how quickly that will/could escalate further and end up costing a lot.

I don't want the horse back, what i want is an acceptance that she was in the wrong, consequences for that for her and the money she got for selling MY horse. I also know that loaner has moved recently so i don't have her current address, despite requests for it. I have her on fb and her current phone number.

Ugh it's just horrible. Makes me angry everytime i think about it because i cannot believe someone would do it!
 
My horse was sold whilst on loan, the police were brilliant, she was charged and taken to court.
I was lucky to get him back, minus a his tack and rugs though!
 
pedilia said:
My horse was sold whilst on loan, the police were brilliant, she was charged and taken to court.
I was lucky to get him back, minus a his tack and rugs though!
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This might be the trick of the whole thing, OP. You might very well be able to petition to get the horse BACK (and the buyers could go after the seller for fraud, as in the case of any other stolen property) but I suspect it will be harder to get the money. Do the current owners have a bill of sale? The problem is you can't prove you did not sell the horse to the loaner! The passport *should* be proof of ownership but clearly it is not - I know someone who bought a horse this week whose passport is in the name of three owners ago. . .

Which is not to say you shouldn't try!

I've not been involved in anything like this but I do know someone who had a horse "sublet" - they had leased it to someone in another country and that person leased it out to someone else, after trying unsuccessfully to sell it. She did not succeed in recovering any monies and, in fact, had to pay for the recovery of the horse from the people who had possession. Maddening.
 
Do you know what OP, I'd make a huge effort to ensure this impacts negatively on the person who has stolen from you.

I'd give them X amount of time to give the money to you, and after that, I'd be doing things like making sure their boss knew what they'd done and that you were going to press charges etc. Every time they posted on a public FB page looking to sell or buy something I'd comment etc. I'd make life seriously unpleasant for them, thieving scumbags.
 
What you could do is take back ownership of the horse, maybe not the horse physically and then the people who bought the horse can sue the loanee in the small claims court (if the amount is less than £5k) under the sale of goods act, even though they are not a dealer, as the loanee sold the horse without owning the legal title to the horse. It will cost c£80 to take them to court, which they can claim back.
 
SpottedCat said:
Do you know what OP, I'd make a huge effort to ensure this impacts negatively on the person who has stolen from you.

I'd give them X amount of time to give the money to you, and after that, I'd be doing things like making sure their boss knew what they'd done and that you were going to press charges etc. Every time they posted on a public FB page looking to sell or buy something I'd comment etc. I'd make life seriously unpleasant for them, thieving scumbags.
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I did this to the guy who sold me a horsebox and then took loads of finance out on it which he didn't pay back. He did not like me talking to his parents, girlfriend, employers and commenting on every post he wrote on HHO.
 
Honey08 said:
Perhaps have a look on the missing/stolen section, there may be people speaking about it on there.

How awful, hope it sorts out. The police are naughty. They should get involved, it is theft, of an expensive item too! They would for a stolen car.
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I had a car stolen once, can safely say the police were not bothered about that either. If you threatened to shoot the lonee,?!!!

Small claims is an option, they will be unlikely to pay but you will get a judgement against them and could file a bankrupcy claim, so they would either have to pay up or lose a lot.

The process is easy, I have a judgement against a previous landlord. Not that he has paid my money back!!!

I'm glad your horse is with a good home, whatever happens.
 
Sorry, this isn't going to help OP very much but what I've learnt from loaning horses out over the years is:

a) always have a solid loan agreement in place which firmly stipulates that the horse is not for re-sale,
b) keep a very close eye on the horse with regular visits. I would even say, weekly, if possible. So that means the horse has to be loaned locally.
c) Get your farrier/vet to attend to the horse, that way, they can feedback to you.

I know these may be difficult to enforce, but I have learnt from personal experience this is the only way to ensure everything turns out for the best.

Good luck.
 
SpottedCat said:
Do you know what OP, I'd make a huge effort to ensure this impacts negatively on the person who has stolen from you.

I'd give them X amount of time to give the money to you, and after that, I'd be doing things like making sure their boss knew what they'd done and that you were going to press charges etc. Every time they posted on a public FB page looking to sell or buy something I'd comment etc. I'd make life seriously unpleasant for them, thieving scumbags.
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I'd be tempted to go down this route too. Have you spoken directly with them? What have they said? Google the hell out of them, get as much information as you can (electoral roll?), find out where the horse was kept and speak to the YO etc. Knowledge is power!
 
SpottedCat said:
Do you know what OP, I'd make a huge effort to ensure this impacts negatively on the person who has stolen from you.

I'd give them X amount of time to give the money to you, and after that, I'd be doing things like making sure their boss knew what they'd done and that you were going to press charges etc. Every time they posted on a public FB page looking to sell or buy something I'd comment etc. I'd make life seriously unpleasant for them, thieving scumbags.
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I wouldnt - Its actually harassment which is unlawful.

You will end up looking bad if you go making a fuss on facebook and you wont get any further with the boss

Have decorum and try to make an arrangement with the loan person. Perhaps come to an agreement?

If not and its **Worth** pursing - they the small claims is the way to go. Most people will pay when threatened with a CCJ.

That said - valuing the horse may be difficult - If the loaner improved the value I would think that you will get some of the value back but not all

And lots of stress....

Dont get me wrong - its awful that its happened and really do feel for you.
 
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