Loan Pony Breach of Contact

Starzaan said:
I agree with other posters about your attitude towards the whole thing though. Although these people sound like they've taken advantage of your being somewhat naive and stung you for a lot of money, and they are being slightly unreasonable turning up and expecting to ride on "your days", it is, after all, their pony. I would be fuming if a sharer told me I couldn't take my own horse to camp or a competition - regardless of a contract.
Good luck!
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Is it naive to expect that terms of a contract are observed on both sides? OP appears to have upheld her side of the bargain, while owner seems to believe that agreed dates are theirs to play about with. I don't think that is SLIGHTLY unreasonable, I think it is simply unacceptable. As to being fuming about not being able to take "my own horse" to camp - in my view, he is not "my own horse" on the days I have contracted to lease him to someone else - therefore I should be asking permission to change the day, or the favour of letting me take him on that day. If you, as owner, don't want that, then don't lease him out at all.
 
The thing is we only have one side of the story. If we heard the owners side they may say that when they negotiated the agreement they made the OP aware that there may be special events such as camp when the pony would not be available, or they may need to be able to alter the days for some other reason, but the OP is refusing. On the other hand they may confirm everything the OP says about them. They may be giving 2 months or 2 days notice of camp. They may or may not recognise the £75pw. We really don't know because we are only hearing one side of the story.
The owners may be complete rotters who are taking a stressed mother of a vulnerable child for a ride. The OP may be a nightmare sharer that they are trying to get rid of. Most likely the truth lies somewhere in between but we have no idea where.
I think the only thing that we can all agree on is that, for whatever reason, the arrangement isn't working for the OP. That any legal action/threats of legal action are likely to achieve the exact opposite of the outcome the OP wants and that the best thing for her to do is walk away and not add to her stress by pursuing such an action.
Ultimately I feel sad that so many have not learned the lessons from the "murder" thread & the 4am response to it.
 
I have to be honest I havent read all of the posts on here. However, I am with the vast majority of posters - its not your pony. I am not a lawyer, but my job does involve a lot of deaings with contract law and yes you have a contract. However, as you will probably already know you have certain remedies under contract law - restitution, specific performance or damages. I would hazard a guess that try any of these options, you will find the pony withdrawn, no matter what any judge in any civil court willl order.

Honestly, is it really worth the utter ball ache a court case will bring? Couple this with the fact that the horse world is a really small one. You will find yourself unable to have any pony on loan or share locally - word gets around and I for one would not let you near either or my horses if they were suitable for a toddler, which mne are definitely not.

Having been involved in a major civil law case last year, even though my busines partner and I won it, I would say do you really, honestly want to do this? Is life not far too short? Its their pony, they want to take it to PC camp, so let them do it, its only for a few days and it will pas quickly. I know a contract is a contract, but sometimes commonsense must prevail, and I would think that this must be one of them.
 
Black horse, I would sell my soul to sit on your mare :D I fell in love with her the moment I saw a picture, in many ways she sounds like my old girl, and it's clear you feel the same way about her as I do ebony... It's a deal, although I reserve the rights to hissy fits, as I'm sure you do ;) x

P.s. wasn't she poorly recently or am i mistaken How is she doing now? Back to normal I hope x
 
Wow, is this still going?
You have all been got by a Bank Holiday troll, and a darn good one at that. It would alomost be believable except for the extortionate cost, which nobody in their right mind would ever pay, especially someone who is from a horsey family so well aware of the costs incured.
10/10!!!
 
lhotse said:
Wow, is this still going?
You have all been got by a Bank Holiday troll, and a darn good one at that. It would alomost be believable except for the extortionate cost, which nobody in their right mind would ever pay, especially someone who is from a horsey family so well aware of the costs incured.
10/10!!!
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Well...if nobody posted in reply to a potential troll - it would be very quiet around here... Plus, many read and don't post and if a reader can muddle through the mayhem and find some genuine information that might help them, it's worth the time taken to contribute IMO...

:)
 
lhotse said:
Wow, is this still going?
You have all been got by a Bank Holiday troll, and a darn good one at that. It would alomost be believable except for the extortionate cost, which nobody in their right mind would ever pay, especially someone who is from a horsey family so well aware of the costs incured.
10/10!!!
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How terribly judgemental :D !

But perhaps we might ask for an explanation of why this poster was seeking a lead rein pony on loan/contract hire for two years, putting her son at under one year old when she started that search?
 
Achinghips said:
Your question relates specifically to the legal aspects of contracts and you are finding it hard to consider other aspects touched on by some members here, which are also highly relevant.

My question is this: Did you get this contract legitamised by a solicitor specialising in equine law, based on the 2006 Animal Welfare Act, under which all equine contracts are legitimised?

Horse contract agreements need to be certified over their legitimacy.

If you or the owner have neglected to do this you have not ensured legal protection for either party.

It is rare, albeit impossible, for you as a loaner/sharer to have drawn up such a contract when you are not the legal owner of the animal and then be able to enforce it. So, who drew up the contract? You or the owner, and was it legitamised by a solicitor?
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This is fair comment:

The contract was drawn up by the owner of the pony it was countersigned by myself on behalf of my son and myself and a third party person, a copy was given to (as I do with all mine and my husbands contracts I might add) to our solicitor (family member) who checked it over and said it was reasonable and covered the basics.

There is a clear clause on use which includes that only my child may ride - no visiting friends or family members and a clause on termination - immediate is only available to the owner if they feel that the pony is being ill treated or if we are incapable of her care.

We always take photos before and after she is groomed and one of the day which my son and I put into our picture diary when we get home as well as sharing with my dad and my mother in law before our weekly call. This does offer us some record.

My husband and I tried a final attempt at a polite conversation this morning to try and resolve our situation and then we terminated our contract giving the agreed notice. Needless to say I very much doubt I will be seeing the money that i have paid in advance and they had the audacity to quote the very same contract I was asking them to adhere to with reasonable notice for any changes.

Normally I wouldn't bother with forums to ask about these sort of things I would have a chat with my dad but he is unavailable at the moment i can be a little chuck the baby out with the bathwater and he usually gives me good advice on dealing with people who are taking the proverbial.

Sad to say this forum has been a dreadful experience. I came on today to delete my account but felt that the above at least deserved a response. Thank you to all those that have give advice it is appreciated be it for or against my original question.

To those that make accusation of being Trolls to new people can I remind you that once upon time you were new.
 
I'm glad you have made a decision, you have plenty of options that will cost you nowhere near as much. Give the forum a chance, there is a lot of good, sound advice on here alongside quite a bit of entertainment! I think the 'troll' thing is thrown around quite a lot especially with a new user, unfortunately your first few posts did get a few backs up, once you explained the situation a lot of people were on your side.
Good luck with finding another pony.
 
Nfp20 said:
Riding lessons are great thank you for suggesting but they do not teach care skills and with a child with Autism they are not always easily accepting of strangers or busy yards. As I said this situation was ideal for us and I have to say I thought it too good to be true when I found her and the set up available.
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Why not get your son enrolled in a therapeutic riding program? They work with children and adults with special needs. http://www.pathintl.org/
 
I haven't had a chance to read everything but I think the OP has EVERY right to be annoyed. It is an agreement and you donb't put a contract in place if you are not going to abide by it. Sadly, though OP if they are not going to be reasonable about it and stick to it - you are better away from the situation. Give your notice and move on or (and I'm not really for this but,) stop your payments and go. If they have broken the agreement, they can't come back at you for doing the same. Best of luck.


Nfp20 said:
This is fair comment:


The contract was drawn up by the owner of the pony it was countersigned by myself on behalf of my son and myself and a third party person, a copy was given to (as I do with all mine and my husbands contracts I might add) to our solicitor (family member) who checked it over and said it was reasonable and covered the basics.

There is a clear clause on use which includes that only my child may ride - no visiting friends or family members and a clause on termination - immediate is only available to the owner if they feel that the pony is being ill treated or if we are incapable of her care.

We always take photos before and after she is groomed and one of the day which my son and I put into our picture diary when we get home as well as sharing with my dad and my mother in law before our weekly call. This does offer us some record.

My husband and I tried a final attempt at a polite conversation this morning to try and resolve our situation and then we terminated our contract giving the agreed notice. Needless to say I very much doubt I will be seeing the money that i have paid in advance and they had the audacity to quote the very same contract I was asking them to adhere to with reasonable notice for any changes.

Normally I wouldn't bother with forums to ask about these sort of things I would have a chat with my dad but he is unavailable at the moment i can be a little chuck the baby out with the bathwater and he usually gives me good advice on dealing with people who are taking the proverbial.

Sad to say this forum has been a dreadful experience. I came on today to delete my account but felt that the above at least deserved a response. Thank you to all those that have give advice it is appreciated be it for or against my original question.

To those that make accusation of being Trolls to new people can I remind you that once upon time you were new.
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Nfp20 said:
Sad to say this forum has been a dreadful experience. I came on today to delete my account but felt that the above at least deserved a response. Thank you to all those that have give advice it is appreciated be it for or against my original question.

To those that make accusation of being Trolls to new people can I remind you that once upon time you were new.
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Actually, I wouldn't agree that it's been dreadful... You've received some extremely negative comments but these have been balanced with equally strong support for your position and a host of middle ground comments... Given the anonymity lack of knowledge of the overall situation/both sides; I think it's been fairly well balanced...

As for the troll spotting... It's a fairly regular occurrence... Sometimes it's right and sometimes it's incorrect - and most times, no one except the OP will ever know for sure... :) That doesn't mean you can't pick through the thread and take advantage of some of the support and advice offered if you choose... The owners of the pony will be hard put to find another sharer in quite such a profitable arrangement...
 
cptrayes said:
How terribly judgemental :D !

But perhaps we might ask for an explanation of why this poster was seeking a lead rein pony on loan/contract hire for two years, putting her son at under one year old when she started that search?
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Not that it is anyones business :mad: but because:

1) My husbands family pony he learnt to ride on died, last of our family ponies died a couple of years before that, the small paddock at my folks has been turned to lawn with a football pitch for my brother (hates horses) as the rest of us have flown the coop and my dad feels he is too old to have another himself so none left in the family to use.

2) I enjoy being around the horses myself and gained more than a bit of weight during my pregnancy, this is a nice way to get back into it after a long break - it was that or the gym membership my husband brought me for christmas :eek:

Do people not pop their children on their horses backs as soon as they can hold up their head anymore?? I suppose health and safety gone mad. My son was around 6 months when he had his first little sit and plod around the garden.

Next you'll be questioning my husbands age in case he is too old to have learnt on a pony that was still alive when my son was under a year :( Perhaps you would like the size of my feet? or the low down on something else trivial that does not meet the criteria of my original question?? Sorry to be rude but enough is enough.
 
flying solo said:
Thank god you don't share my daughters pony! You would've had your notice as soon as you started your moaning like a school child! Grow up!

Pony is possibly on PART SHARE so it gets exercise and attention on days the OWNER doesn't/can't make it to the yard. With holidays etc these are usually flexible and SHARERS (that would be you!) are usually supposed to be flexible just as the owner would be if you were to go anywhere!

You sound like a nightmare and I'd have you off my yard ASAP.
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Oh yawn....

OP has a VERY valid point. They have made a contract, and if they are paying something towards the cost, then a little consideration from the owners goes along way.

I doubt very much the OP would WANT to be on your yard the way you are yelling....
 
I'm disappointed to find no treasure at the end of this thread... :D

OP, I'd suggest you DON'T get your own pony if you're concerned about your son's routine. There're plenty of reasons why a horse or pony may be unable to ride on any given day, so (as others have suggested) the RDA is probably a better bet. He could bond with two or three different ponies and have a better chance of being able to ride whenever you want him to.

You may have had a difficult time of things on this thread but your first post (the one people form their opinions on the back of) was desperately lacking in critical bits of the story - the amount of money you're paying and the behaviour of the owners in riding when your toddler is about to get on. Once those details were added people became more sympathetic, although if I were you those missing details would've been the FIRST things I mentioned. I still can't quite figure out why you think £300+ PCM is reasonable, particularly as you seem to come from a horsey family.
 
Nfp20 said:
Not that it is anyones business :mad: but because:

1) My husbands family pony he learnt to ride on died, last of our family ponies died a couple of years before that, the small paddock at my folks has been turned to lawn with a football pitch for my brother (hates horses) as the rest of us have flown the coop and my dad feels he is too old to have another himself so none left in the family to use.

2) I enjoy being around the horses myself and gained more than a bit of weight during my pregnancy, this is a nice way to get back into it after a long break - it was that or the gym membership my husband brought me for christmas :eek:

Do people not pop their children on their horses backs as soon as they can hold up their head anymore?? I suppose health and safety gone mad. My son was around 6 months when he had his first little sit and plod around the garden.

Next you'll be questioning my husbands age in case he is too old to have learnt on a pony that was still alive when my son was under a year :( Perhaps you would like the size of my feet? or the low down on something else trivial that does not meet the criteria of my original question?? Sorry to be rude but enough is enough.
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We aren't all horrid here. I will converse with you as believing what you say is true until proven otherwise. :D

Unfortunately there are many here who are so far up themselves they think they have the right to scream 'TROLL!' the moment someone new arrives.

I feel for you, and I also believe the fact what you have had to pay, yes...many people take the piss, not only in the horse world, but in every walk of life.

I don't understand how people can be horrid to each other, we should have stayed swinging in trees and picking fleas off each other, I feel the human race has evolved too much for it's own good.

You need to either take a pony on full loan or buy one. Loans can go wrong as well.

Good luck and don't let the negativity put you off.
 
I do.. have said thank you and replied to those that required reasonable additional information.

Someone has very kindly sent me the following link privately and I have asked them to share but its such a good one I am going to post it myself http://www.circlesnetwork.org.uk/index.asp?slevel=0z128z152&parent_id=152

I won't be taking a loan again. I think this experience if nothing else has just reaffirmed my belief that there is nothing like your own and my husband is now also convinced,
 
Nfp20 said:
I won't be taking a loan again. I think this experience if nothing else has just reaffirmed my belief that there is nothing like your own and my husband is now also convinced,
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How will you cope if and WHEN your own can't be ridden?
 
I still can't square the money on this one. Does anyone, not including the poster who has made her situation clear, know of any hire agreements that are being advertised, or have been taken up by anyone else, at £25 per day? I've looked on loan sites and £25 per week for 3 days seems more like the norm and I can't find anything anywhere near to what the OP is paying for a lead rein pony. Is she the only person in the country paying that amount of money to hire a pony for 3 days or are there other owners taking the mickey out of gullible horse lovers that way?


OP the best way you can demonstrate that you are not a troll is to stay around and post on other topics. You should find it quite fun, irrespective of whether you care or not that people believe that you were not trolling.
 
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Frumpoon said:
Queenbee and Blackhorse - aren't you two just a little ray of sunshine.....next time either of you is here whinging for sympathy about having a broken horse or being a poor little disabled rider you might remember how unkind you were to this poster....courtesy doesn't only go one way....
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Wow, I don't usually get involved with 'arguments,' and aside from the thread and who has said what, unkind or otherwise,Frumpoon I think the comment that you made about 'being a poor disabled rider' was a bit below the belt, I think Blackhorse was actually trying to empathise with the OP's situation.
 
I can't believe some of the replies on here.

1) The OP has spent considerable time finding a loan that's right for her and her son.
2) She finds it, and takes the time to explain her circumstances fully, agrees to a contract (drawn up by the owners!) and effectively pays considerably over the odds for the benefits of a fixed contract.
3) She freely admits that with sufficient notice she is happy to accommodate reasonable demands.
4) The owners have already demonstrated that they make unreasonable demands without notice.
5) The OP asks for advice about turning to the law for support in upholding the contract (which is, after all, a legal document).

And she gets attacked for it!!!

OP, you're better off out of it. For some reason, much of the horse world (not all of it, there are a lot of honourable exceptions on this thread, thankfully) somehow seem to think that contracts - and manners - don't "count" when a horse is involved. You signed an agreement. I cannot see that you are in the wrong in any way. In any normal sphere, that would hold. However, given the sums, and the prevailing attitude in the horse world, the best you can do is walk away.

I hope all of you who have been critical never get stung by a contract - whether it's a sale or purchase, a livery owner or livery who fails to stick to Ts & Cs, a riding instructor who you discover too late doesn't have insurance...

I hope the OP finds a lovely pony for her son, and that he continues to find joy in horses.
 
Theocat said:
I can't believe some of the replies on here.

1) The OP has spent considerable time finding a loan that's right for her and her son.
2) She finds it, and takes the time to explain her circumstances fully, agrees to a contract (drawn up by the owners!) and effectively pays considerably over the odds for the benefits of a fixed contract.
3) She freely admits that with sufficient notice she is happy to accommodate reasonable demands.
4) The owners have already demonstrated that they make unreasonable demands without notice.
5) The OP asks for advice about turning to the law for support in upholding the contract (which is, after all, a legal document).

And she gets attacked for it!!!

OP, you're better off out of it. For some reason, much of the horse world (not all of it, there are a lot of honourable exceptions on this thread, thankfully) somehow seem to think that contracts - and manners - don't "count" when a horse is involved. You signed an agreement. I cannot see that you are in the wrong in any way. In any normal sphere, that would hold. However, given the sums, and the prevailing attitude in the horse world, the best you can do is walk away.

I hope all of you who have been critical never get stung by a contract - whether it's a sale or purchase, a livery owner or livery who fails to stick to Ts & Cs, a riding instructor who you discover too late doesn't have insurance...

I hope the OP finds a lovely pony for her son, and that he continues to find joy in horses.
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Very well put.
 
Contract or no contract, I would never have done (as a decent human being) what you have said they have done to you and your son.
Obviously as always we only have one side of the story, but personally when I have shared my horse I have always tried to be as helpful, easy going and fair as possible to my shares. I think if they used the forum they would agree too. After all they helped me, they LOVED my horse and bought him gifts etc. Being fair and kind to them was the least I could do!

It would take something HuGE for me to pull the "well its MY horse" card, so I don't really agree with that. When you share, you do just that and notwithstanding welfare issues, it shouldn't be down to the owner to "trump" the sharer when they want something. Clearly people like that haven't ever understood the concept of sharing...
 
Nfp20 said:
I do.. have said thank you and replied to those that required reasonable additional information.

Someone has very kindly sent me the following link privately and I have asked them to share but its such a good one I am going to post it myself http://www.circlesnetwork.org.uk/index.asp?slevel=0z128z152&parent_id=152
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Sorry OP only just caught up. The Circles Network "Taking the Reins" project is invaluable for children and young people with many issues, including autism, ADHD etc etc, or just those from disadvantaged backgrounds, and if anyone else is in the same position as the OP then I would urge you to have a look at the project.

It is entirely different to the RDA - not saying better, but differently aimed.

FWIW I think that this thread sums up for me what is worst about HHO, which is why I didn't post before but contacted the OP privately. I hope she is not totally put off HHO - it's an invaluable resource and a lot of you who have been thoroughly unpleasant on this thread have yourselves had need of advice and support in the past, and have received it, though seem to have forgotten that fact very quickly.
 
I have to admit, I started out reading this thread thinking you were being stroppy and childish - The owners child taking the pony away for a week seems fair enough, We're all human, Maybe they miscalculated the dates - I've done this myself before and ended up with concert tickets thinking the date was for a weekend my daughter was with her father. No biggie.

But seeing the amount they are charging you and the fact you have paid 3 months in advance, i am actually sat with my mouth open.

They are taking the piss. I have had my own horses on livery yards and not spent £75 per week on them, And i'm talking larger ponies in serious work not just tots pottering around on them and a weeks pony club in the summer.

I would demand the money back, And buy a nice little pony for your lad and get a sharer if i were you.
 
Also, My daughter wears cochlear implants. They are an extremely expensive piece of equipment. If they became damaged i could be in the ***** big time, Yet i have never been told by ANYONE that i should have to pay more to cover this for any type of activity. I don't see why autism would warrant an increase in financial contribution.
 
Good grief. Haven't read every post but the bit that said they were charging you extra because your son is autistic made my blood boil !! Get proper legal advice. If they have broken the contract they will have to pay the penalties, and I hope that consists of a full refund of all you have paid out so far.

And then I'd either buy a pony for your son or get one on full loan. There are some really super ponies out there that are desperate for homes. The right one will be hard to find but it will be worth the wait.Good luck.
 
I know that this was posted a couple of months ago, but I hope everything has worked out for you, Horse Loaner. I'm disappointed that the owners of the pony that you are sharing have done this, and yes it is a breach of contract, but sadly, there are many owners out there that don't see a problem with changing days without notice. I ended a loan agreement on this very basis in the past as the owner would use the pony on my days.

I am now currently an owner that shares/part loans my pony for half the week and I drew up a specific contract detailing days etc. I would never dream of using the pony on my sharer's days without prior permission and plenty of notice. As far as I am concerned, he is their pony on their days and I would expect them to act upon the contract if I tried to use him on their days. If we wish to change days, we do so by mutual agreement in writing. This makes the agreement fair to both parties. If I ever want to take my pony to a show on one of my sharer's days, I always offer a different day of that week in return and if they say no, then I don't take him. That's the whole point of having a contract in these situations - to protect both parties.

However, the problem as I see it is that presumably there is a clause that allows either side to end the contract early? If so, the owners could just give you notice if you try to enforce the contract for specific performance and there is nothing to stop them from doing so. You may be able to claim damages or get a refund on your money, but you may still lose the pony and it seems the continued use of the pony is what you would like as an outcome.

I would write a letter to the owners detailing your concerns and the effect it is having on your child - I wouldn't threaten legal action just yet, but point out that this is what the contract says and that you would like to reach a solution.

I hope that you have/do find a good solution. It's a real shame that some owners feel that because the horse is in their name that sharers don't have a right to what they are paying for.
 
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