Loan sharks

[Chestnut_filly12]

Just read H&H (23rd Feb) and was disgusted at the 'Police Alert on Loan Sharks' article. How could someone say that they would look after a horse, then sell it on? I always thought loaning was a good idea, as my aunts mare is a loan horse, and it works!
Loaning is ideal for the first time owner, as if it is too stressful/expensive ect. they can 'give it back' if u get what I mean. Anyway, has anyone else experienced a case like this?

 

[peterthepony]

Ive always put my horses out on loan before i finally decide to sell them and it works fine, my six year old is on loan at the mo and thats all fine!

 

[PapaFrita]

I think it usually does work, especially if you have some sort of written loan agreement, but it's a sad fact that some people will take on loan horses with the sole intention of selling them on and making a fast buck. I suspect this is less likely to happen if you're loaning a pony to a family with children, but I can't say for sure.

 

[Chestnut_filly12]

When you loan, do you pay? Cos I always thought you paid like monthly or something, but I heard you dont?

 

[peterthepony]

It all depends on wether or not you want them to give you money, mines on free loan so she doesnt have to pay anything bar livery and feed!

 

[PapaFrita]

Some people have their horses on a sort of share loan and then they contribute towards the expense of keeping the horse, but they don't pay a fee for using the horse (I don't think!)

 

[california]

Loans can work quite well but i`ve just had a bad experience with my arab I loaned i`ve had to bring him home his back was raw where his saddle had been rubbing because they were riding for 4 to 5 hours 6 days a week and not washing him properly!!! not amused. Hes also got a huge splint he did`nt have 4 months ago. Never Again will i loan a horse of mine.

 

[Chestnut_filly12]

Thats really bad luck poor you! People should know better *tut tut*

 

[Onyxia]

when it works, loaning can be a fantastic idear, but it is a risk. no matter how through you are you cannot garentee what treatment the horse will get. unfortunatly there are also people who will sell a loan horse on for a quick bit of cash.
the loans i have seen work best are when the horse is kept at the current yard, if owners are not there then omeone who knows them are and will keep an eye on things .

 

[Kittykins]

I've always thought loans were quite a good idea - especially if you can't afford the initial outlay for a decent quality horse, but can pay the upkeep.
A friend of mine loaned out her horse after it recovered from a road traffic accident - he couldn't be competed any more, but she didn't want to sell him, so he went to a very nice lady who hacked him around the ashdown forest, and let my friend visit whenever she liked.

 

[Onyxia]

[ QUOTE ]
especially if you can't afford the initial outlay for a decent quality horse, but can pay the upkeep.

[/ QUOTE ]
yes, me too. esp given the prices horses are going for now!it would take me about 3 years to save up enough for a horse, tack rugs and all the other bits.

like i said when it works loaning is a fantastic way to go, but when it doesnt its a nightmare.

 

[AlexBomb]

It is hard to prove ownership of any item, selling a horse without the owners permission has happened before.

In law it is theft and deception to defraud.

This type of theft happens a great deal in rural areas of the UK, many cases with tractors and other farm vehicles... I have even seen cases of large numbers of cattle being sold by the farmhand!

 

[buddy]

Well unfortunately, you may have seen my add on here for tracing our bay mare. We never actually sold her she went on loan in June 04 to a girl that we thought was very nice but turned out we were very wrong. I went to see Hazel as often as poss and popped up there without the girl knowing, went in Nov last and we gave her the month notice that we were going to pick her up in Jan and when we got there the yard was completly empty, she signed a loan agreement and lucky we had her address and when we got there she told us that Hazel had broke her leg and been put to sleep. I then asked for proof like the vet bill and people that took her away, funny that cause she did not have none and did not even no how saw the pony. We went to the police, they took a statement and told us they did not have enough evidence on her. So till this day we are still trying to find a pony we owned for 8 yrs till this girl had her and we have been told sold her. Till now no one knows nothing and the police are not interested.

 

[Onyxia]

its your worst nightmare isnt it??
stories like yours are why i belive passports are useless unless used in conjunction with micro chipping AND freezemarking.

i really hope you find her.

 

[AlexBomb]

what you need to do is have a meeting with the girl that has taken your pony and covertly film her admission to taking it unlawfully,

contact me via my office and i would be happy to help - www.int-int.co.uk

Alex

 

[buddy]

O yes it is you worst nightmare. Well that is it, what is the point in paying out all that money and having passports etc when they can not be traced. She did not have a passport, cause it had only just come in and the girl was suppose to get it done as well as have insurance. She is however microchipped and that is down as stolen and so it will come up as stolen if a vet scans her. It is a joke. If she had of had insurance we could have claimed but she never gotnone and cause she can not prove anything then they would not pay out anyway.

 

[buddy]

Ok well how and were go I go on the web to contact AlexBomb, not to clever with all these things. The only problem is she still insists that Hazel was put to sleep, we nop it is not true cause we have a witness that saw her in Jan 05 when she was suppose to have been put to sleep in Nov 04. But the girl still says the same story as she has to the police, yet the police are not to bothered with the fact that she has no proof of anything she says has happened. She so we were told has also done this before.

 

[the watcher]

Evidence obtained covertly would not normally be admissible in a criminal trial, however it might be of use in a civil matter, unfortunately the risk of costs is then on the person bringing the case if unsuccessful.
The answer is always to make any horse that is loaned out clearly identifiable, to visit the yard where it goes and make sure the y.o knows it is your horse and to let you know of any problems or changes.
I can tell you that the Police do try to prosecute in these cases, but it could also be argued that this is a civil dispute unless your contract is very clear. The Crown Prosecution Service will not sanction a prosecution unless the chances of winning are high and this kind of situation is always tricky, no matter how clear it may appear to you.
Loaning does work, I have loaned horses on and off for years, however finding myself needing a steady middle weight cob now I am struggling to find one as everybody is shy of loaning horses out, except at their existing yards. Only takes a few bad apples to spoil it for the rest of us.

 

[spotty_pony]

I know, I read that today! It is disgusting - especially about the woman committing fraud by putting up adverts looking for companion ponies and then selling them on. It's disgusting. I would never send my pony out on loan, even if I did outgrow him - you just never know where he might end up!

 

[AlexBomb]

sorry, have to disagree with you, evedence obtained this way IS admissible in a theft case. Jones v the university of Warwick [2003] 1 WLR954

Neither is it against article 8 of the Human rights act or Protection from Harassment Act 1997 if carried out in the correct manor.

the court is obliged to ensure that cases are dealt with justly, it also has the power to control evidence - this excludes evidence that would otherwise be admissible such as that which has been obtained unlawfully. the court has to grapple with public interest, Rall V Hume [2001] 3 All ER 248 is a good example of this.


Glad i know my job or i would have been in the dock far too many times and not for the right reasons.


Alex

 

[the watcher]

OOOh I LOVE a good legal arguement! Your second example relates specifically to an Employment Tribunal where an employee was running down his employer on the company phone to a customer..was the intercept on the call admissible. the appeal determined it was, but given the surrounding circumstances, hardly a surprising conclusion.
I am aware that RIPA is less impactive on private investigators than on the police or other public bodies..however to get a criminal case to court you have to get it through the Crown Prosecution Service..don't fancy your chances with a taped conversation, especially since it would have to be disclosed in advance of the trial.

The simple fact is, once the horse is gone, it is gone. It is too late, all the admissions, contracts, surveillance in the world is unlikely to get it back or bring the person responsible to justice. the only way to protect the animal is to make it identifiable so that it cannot be disposed of, or that the disposal can be traced. Every horse on loan (well, actually every horse, in my view) should be freezemarked so it can be instantly identifed with no specialist equipment

 

[AlexBomb]

ok, maybe the second example is slightly weaker that it should be....

Still disagree with you as my company have used covert footage a number of times. The last case where it was used with very good results by my company was video taping a meeting at the Ritz hotel, the case was quite complex, but see http://cfries.canalblog.com/archives/2006/06/index.html
- 22 juin 2006, Law firm denies allegation of e-mail system break-in.

this will maybe show what an be done within the law.

Alex