loanee breach of contract??

i haven't read through all posts but a few years ago i had a horse out on loan and loanees breached specific terms we'd both agreed to that were added to bhs loan agreement that resulted in vets bills for me. i took her to small claims court so small fee to do paperwork but no need of solicitors etc (although if bhs member id use their legal helpine). i evidenced the agreement, the costs id incurred etc and won the case. admittedly i got repaid in installments but at least i got money back including the fees
 
Have to say I agree with every question AM has asked - although maybe wouldnt have asked in the same 'tone' myself, but everyone is different and thats what keeps life interesting!!

OP - I have a feeling that you will struggle in any court to get any kind of comeback on your loaner... for a number of reasons...

The BHS 'contract' as already explained by JH & Rhino is not a legally binding 'contract' but a template. Had you wanted to arrange this you should have arranged something formally through a solicitor.

You havent yet had the Vet out to the pony, any court is going to ask how on earth you proove the situation without the support of a Vet - who knows, the pony could have come down with the condition between leaving the loaner and you having the vet out (I'm not suggesting this is the case, however is a very easy direction for your loaner to take things) - it is now very much your word against theirs.

You had put the pony on loan, and hadnt checked on him - obviously you had a lot of other stuff going on, but it sounds like the loaners were not very knowledgable and probably werent aware of exactly what was happening to the pony?

Anyway, I hope said pony recovers and it isnt too serious,
 
tams said:
so it is as thought a worthless bit of paper well that clears that up then
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Hi - no, it's certainly not a worthless piece of paper. The BHS precedent is not a *great* loan agreement (in fact if you ask me there's heaps missing...) but if terms have been agreed between you and the loanee you DO have a binding and enforceable contract.

Even if the contract was not written, if terms have been agreed, it is binding on both parties.

As far as pursuing your loanee for breach of contract is concerned, step one is to make sure you are clear about, and can evidence, its terms. I would expect it to have been agreed that the loanee would keep the horse at a healthy weight and with regularly trimmed feet. If that wasn't an express term, it might still be taken to be an implied on. Pretty basic stuff, if you ask me!

As far as evidencing the loanee's breach of contract is concerned, the evidence of your vet as to the pony's condition will be vital. He really should be seen as soon as you possibly can.

The above poster's experience is very good guidance (glad you succeeded, molly!) - a claim for breach of contract would be brought in the local County Court. If you're seeking damages of under £5k, you're in the small claims court and won't usually recover costs even if you win, so it's designed for you not to need a solicitor (proceedings are relatively informal), though you might want a solicitor to be on hand to guide you through the process.

Hope that helps, and most importantly that your boy is back to full fitness soon.
 
Welshie Squisher said:
I hope your pony recovers quickly, I've been in your shoes and blamed the loaners, only now can I accept I should have done more to ensure right home :(
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Whilst perhaps you are being a tad harsh on yourself there, I do agree that when loaning the horse does ultimately remain its owner's responsibility. Only selling it absolves you of that.

OP not being mean but you do add in that you had to focus on your mare, so I read from that you are aware you could perhaps have done more to be 100% sure the pony was being looked after properly. I'd not be looking for any compo I'd be putting the pony right pdq. Perhaps one to chalk down to experience and let any resentment go. Imagine the pain and stress of suing someone :(

Also sounds (as someone else said) that the people were just not that knowledgeable. That wouldn't have been hard to ascertain from the off. Sounds like the daughter was going out and enjoying the pony, I just hope the poor kid is ok. Not sure what age she is but must be young, she probably adored your pony and suddenly one day it's no longer there. That's terribly hard for a kid to take. So I would imagine they'd fight like stink if you did initiate any legal action.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
You were told by one friend pony was fat, by another friend he was pottery. You went to see pony, found him obese, huge sarcoid, cracked hooves. When you left that day, you didn't take the pony home with you. Yes the loaners have not cared for your pony properly, but then neither have you, you left him there! To answer your question, you could try to sue loaners through small claims court but it might just be throwing more money away.
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yes i did leave pony there as i didnt have a trailer with me and they were on holiday, pony was locked in i couldnt get him out!
 
I have read this with interest OP and really hope your pony is OK now. I am also struggling with the concept of you leaving this pony there when you visited.

Speaking from experience, I loaned one out a few years ago, went to visit 5 days later, was not happy with what I saw, went home, got trailer and picked pony up.....within the hour.

I know you say people were on holiday, pony locked in etc (surely SOMEONE would have a key), but this pony belongs to you!

I really hope pony gets better, and I'm sure his future looks brighter now :)
 
tams said:
yes i did leave pony there as i didnt have a trailer with me and they were on holiday, pony was locked in i couldnt get him out!
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Locked in where?

If it was just a yard gate I'd see YO and explain the situation and prove ownership with passport. If that didn't work I'd be up with police escort to retreive my property.

Personally I think you should focus on the horse now. Lesson learned they did wrong by the horse, your friends were rather late to inform you of her condition if she is this bad now and you should have checked.

Stop passing the blame and sort the horse out. As others have said if you wanted to go anywhere with it you should have had a vet straight out, even before moving. You didn't. Drag it through court if you want but it will be stirring up a situation and causing you years of worry and probably you'll be lumped with a load of fees as you realistically have no proof they were in the wrong.

Pan
 
ok thanks for the good advice about small claims, we do have lots of photos of him before during and after loan, farriers report, various instructors who have taught the child and my pony so will concider what to do next.

my pony doesnt have lammi confirmed today! he is foot sore and pottery due to the condition his feet were in, his soles have softened due to the wet spongy bed he was on, and the next step is to harden them while on box rest for 7 days and see if he has improved, my vets advice was deep shavings bed, 1% bodyweight of soaked hay and get feet sorted all this had been agreed before the pony was collected, the vet is well aware of the situation and my farrier and vet work closely together! my pony was loaned to a pony club home where the girl had already achived c test and her other pony (who i knew well) was always well cared for, there was a clause in the contract if i didnt think he was being looked after properly i could remove him without notice at my own cost, i did however give them the chance to correct there mistakes as i felt sorry for the child and felt 24hrs was plenty of time to buy shavings and remove bales of hay and straw from his reach, i did think it would be tricky to prove a breech in court and now have mixed feeling about trying, the pony club have already been informed and are currently dealing with my concernes as i wouldnt want anyone elses pony to go through this, yes i should have checked him weekly i hold my hands up to that one and there are lots of other things i should have done but didnt due to my mare being ill, i am not blameless in this situation which i am fully aware of, i think this will just have to go down to experience people are not always what they seem,
 
rhino said:
A passport is not proof of ownership and legally should have been left with the loaner anyway...
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pony was kept at there private home yard and passport and tack were with the loanee, there was no one there to get a key from and i had no idea at the time her father was looking after ponies
 
I'm sorry to hear you have had a bad experience with the loan but please do not tar us all with the same brush.

I am a loanee, I have the pony of my dreams and would love to buy him. the owner, will not sell, not because she does not trust me, but because she does not want him passed from pillar to post if things don't work out.

I have a signed contract (which is witnessed) with the owner, and the Owner knows she can come and visit when ever she wants. she doesn;t even need to tell me (like a reasonable notice peroid) if she's in the area and wants to stop in she just phones/texts, as long as I know she's going to be there, I have nothing to hide,I just let the YO know.

I to, in the past, have been an owner who's loaned, I had a very bad experience of it, but it did teach me one thing, research is everything, and research the loanee as much as possible (as my owner did ).

If you are hoping to go down the court route, please ensure you document everything, vet/farrier reports, photo's, receipts. You need to prove neglegence on the loanees part = breach of contract. and as such that you have been justified in your taking pony away. Otherwise, they could counter sue you for breach of contract (i.e. taking poiny away without reasonable notice).

good luck
 
PandorasJar said:
+1.

I would be fuming about the care too... however taking them to court for breach of contract will require you to really prove how she has, very difficult to do.

Lesson learned... always check regularly, have clauses in regarding vet bills if necessary, have insurance for if this happens... but most importantly for now, focus on the horse

Pan
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completly agree would be hard to prove i should have documented ponys weight on agreement when leaving me, there are lots of other things i will add to a agreement should i ever loan again, lesson learnt
 
x-di-x said:
I'm sorry to hear you have had a bad experience with the loan but please do not tar us all with the same brush.

I am a loanee, I have the pony of my dreams and would love to buy him. the owner, will not sell, not because she does not trust me, but because she does not want him passed from pillar to post if things don't work out.

I have a signed contract (which is witnessed) with the owner, and the Owner knows she can come and visit when ever she wants. she doesn;t even need to tell me (like a reasonable notice peroid) if she's in the area and wants to stop in she just phones/texts, as long as I know she's going to be there, I have nothing to hide,I just let the YO know.

I to, in the past, have been an owner who's loaned, I had a very bad experience of it, but it did teach me one thing, research is everything, and research the loanee as much as possible (as my owner did ).

If you are hoping to go down the court route, please ensure you document everything, vet/farrier reports, photo's, receipts. You need to prove neglegence on the loanees part = breach of contract. and as such that you have been justified in your taking pony away. Otherwise, they could counter sue you for breach of contract (i.e. taking poiny away without reasonable notice).

good luck
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i have also had good loanees, i didnt want to sell pony for similar reasons to your horses owner, agreement did say i could visit when ever i liked and i could remove him without notice, the pony the loanee currently has belonged to a friend of mine they have had him for quite a time now, things seemed to go down hill when they asked to buy my pony and i said no as i didnt want to sell, everything has been well documented so far encase i need it, currently i dont have huge bills from him, and it is looking like box rest and good foot care will sort him out, thankfully i think he was removed from the situation just in time :)
 
molly7886 said:
i haven't read through all posts but a few years ago i had a horse out on loan and loanees breached specific terms we'd both agreed to that were added to bhs loan agreement that resulted in vets bills for me. i took her to small claims court so small fee to do paperwork but no need of solicitors etc (although if bhs member id use their legal helpine). i evidenced the agreement, the costs id incurred etc and won the case. admittedly i got repaid in installments but at least i got money back including the fees
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thankfully i think hes been removed just in time to avoid huge vet bills, vetinary care was included in the agreement although should i ever loan again i think the agreement will be more like a thick book than a few sheets of paper lol with every single thing covered and drawn up correctly by a solicitor, everything this time has been documented for future reference
 
annunziata said:
Unfortunately I am a loaner as well you have to give them 24hrs notice to view the horse and you have to give them a time scale in writting to make the changes. I feel for you but unless you have done this and then written to them telling them you are terminating and collecting then I dont think you will have much luck taking them to court.
I keep the insurance in my name and they pay the bills that way i know if they have not paid and if I have to take mine back the I can get all the treatment done on insurance. I would write to them take photos of him and send them your bill and the photos and a copy of the contact and highlight any area you feel they have breached and hope they pay for it. Bar that you would need to speak to a lawyer
So sorry and I hope that the pony is okay hugs to you both
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No, You don't *have* to do anything, contract or no contract, Loaner = Not the animals owner so no say in what owner does.
 
I'm glad your pony is ok at least that is the main point.

I will say as others there are some good loaners out there some of us do take good care of our charges and stick to the letter of the contract. I hope you find someone more suitable in future perhaps under a retention at your own yard rather than moving to another might be a better option?
 
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