Loanee won't give my horse back

[jrp204]

Whether a loan is 'permenent' or not it is still a loan with loaner retaining ownership of the horse, as an 'owner' i would expect to have a say in what happened to my animal and to be able to have it back. The horse was not 'gifted' or sold. The loanee has no rights over the horse as she does not technically own it.
If you take a horse on loan, of any sort you have to expect that at some stage the owner may want it back. If you don't want this to happen you BUY your own horse.

 

[YasandCrystal]

Maybe I am being naive, but I thought the idea of a 'permanent loan' would be that with certain extreme exceptions like for example the ill health or death of the loanee or the horse becoming aggressive or unmanageble that the horse remained on loan for it's life.

I thought this was the type of loan that charities and rescue centres use and that the only time they would ask for a horse back was if the loanee was neglecting to care properly for the horse, not because they decided they wanted to loan it out for example elsewhere or have it at their centre.

Otherwise why not just have a 'loan' agreement. The word 'permanent' stands for nothing if the loaner can simply decide they want the horse back with notice through no fault of the loanee. Surely this OP should have had a 'full loan' rather than a 'permanent loan'?

 

[jrp204]

Charities 'permenant loaning' will still maintain ownership and can take the horse back for whatever reason as it is theirs.
I agree, there is little point in putting the permenant bit into any agreement, a loan is a loan regardless of the timescale it is over.

 

[wytsend]

I had a similar situation some 3 years ago.

Gave the agreed notice period on the contract. Telephoned to say which day I would collect the horse, followed in writing. Denied entry to premises...previously no problem...with loanee now demanding livery charges !!!

Called the Police at once , explained situation, Sergeant & PC turned up, escorted us to the yard & requested we be allowed to remove our property.
They agreed the contract was in no doubt a loan, that the proper notice had been given as agreed.

Loanee turns funny with the law, Yard freeholder(owner) is called to open the gates. Police enforced our right to remove the horse & informed loanee any further resistance would treated very seriously.

MHOL will assist you if you are in doubts as to procedure, we were not so proceeded as outlined above.

My advice iss act quickly otherwise your horse could just disappear and you will be in a whole new ball game.

Minor point... loanee has horse without passport.. this is illegal.

 

[Queenbee]

Shelley, the owner of the yard are her grandparents. I feel if I did this they would lock the gates or move the horse. It is a very sensitive situation and if we turned up with a trailer, there would definitely be physical barriers to get through. It seems like a good plan though, thankyou

Personally I would, drive there, physical barriers would not stop me, bolt croppers to padlocks, landrover through gate, I would get there and get my horse, once the horse was back in my posession I would then deal with the consequences. But then that is just me, and if anyone stood between me and Ebony they would be lucky that the only things damaged were inanimate objects.

Perhaps not much help or advice in my post but that is how I would handle it, I would be bl00dy furious.

On a more helpful note, I would write to her informing her that you withdraw your offer for her to purchase the horse, send it recorded delivery and then turn up 2 days later with the help of a few extra people. Just brave it, turn up unnanounced, drive right in there and if necesarry walk/ ride bareback out of the yard. Tell them that you are willing to reconsider a purchase, but that they pay cash on collection of the horse. (although if it was me they would not get their hands on it!)

 

[Luci07]

While there has been a lot of well meaning advice on here, no one (including myself) with the exception of MHOL has been able to offer any CLARITY on your absolute legal position. You have started the process with MHOL, I would ask what the legal process is and then follow it. Whatever the original agreement, it is voided because you then changed the contract and that is in writing (now that bit is legally correct). You therefore have a new contract whereby the loanee has stated she will purchase the horse. The original contract is voided because you BOTH changed the terms and agreed to a different contract.

So my priority would be - get absolute clarity with MHOL who does know their stuff, get legal clarification (BHS helpline? legal insurance on your household?) and then see how to go. I would suggest that, if the best course is to come and reclaim, that you do tell the police first so that is logged.

And for those who are not sympathetic about taking a horse back that was out on loan - tough! the horse was not sold, the lender did not have to fork out any money and the risk they take is that the horse could go back.

 

[jr286]

yes, thankyou very much lucie. I'm getting copies of the original contract, the new paper with her agreeing to buy him and his passport to MHOL. There is also the option for the smalls claim thing to look into.
Thanks again for your advice everyone.

 

[Tinseltoes]

I agree with this. Permanent loan is just that. If I had a horse on permanent loan - to me that would mean I have the horse for it's life and unless I mistreated it or a pts decision had to be made the horse is mine in all but legal ownership.

You say 'your circumstances have changed' well I would say go buy a horse; you can't now demand money for a horse that was loaned for life just because you want a horse. Put the boot on the other foot; you wouldn't want it done to you would you?
People like you are the reason I would NEVER loan a horse. Sorry if I sound harsh, but I think it's the loanee getting a raw deal here - no wonder the yard are on her side!

Maybe I am being naive, but I thought the idea of a 'permanent loan' would be that with certain extreme exceptions like for example the ill health or death of the loanee or the horse becoming aggressive or unmanageble that the horse remained on loan for it's life.

I thought this was the type of loan that charities and rescue centres use and that the only time they would ask for a horse back was if the loanee was neglecting to care properly for the horse, not because they decided they wanted to loan it out for example elsewhere or have it at their centre.

Otherwise why not just have a 'loan' agreement. The word 'permanent' stands for nothing if the loaner can simply decide they want the horse back with notice through no fault of the loanee. Surely this OP should have had a 'full loan' rather than a 'permanent loan'?

Funny situation to be in. Ive had my section A pony here on loan for last 6 years and I have a contract saying on loan until payed for (no dates or such). Owner previously threatened to take the pony,but never has been to see her in the 6 years ive had her.Solicitor told me what she can and cant do.The passport is suppost to be with the horse/pony.

Im not sure where you stand as loanee isnt neglecting the horse or anything like that. Permanant loan means exactly that.

 

[jr286]

If you take a horse on loan, of any sort you have to expect that at some stage the owner MAY want it back. If you don't want this to happen you BUY your own horse.

 

[Tinseltoes]

Im lucky cause I have the section A who I have on loan till payed for & is here for life and then I own a cobby,whose MINE outright -also here for life.

 

[jr286]

great

 

[GingerCat]

This post is also running in another thread and I answered in there but you did not reply.

My query is that you say you offered to sell the horse to the loanee, which makes me think that you have no real desire to have this particular horse back.
Did you offer the horse for sale at a fair price?
3 years is a long time to loan a horse and I'm sure that the loanee is very fond of it. My friend had a horse on loan for 7 years, she got him as a barely broken youngster, very green. He's now a well schooled allrounder, and has been successfully shown by my daughter for the past two seasons. His owner got wind of this and told my friend that she wants to sell him and offered him to my friend for a ridiculous sum...a real cheek as it's my friend and my daughter that has turned him into the cracking animal he is today!
It was obvious that his owner was just trying to make a profit from my friend's attachment to the horse

I know that at the end of the day you are the owner and the horse does belong to you..but the loanee must have feelings for this horse and feelings cannot just be switched on and off!
I think you need to take those feelings into consideration and to be honest about your reasons for wanting the horse back if you are to come to any sort of agreement in all this.

 

[jr286]

No not at all, we've been very reasonable and offered him well below his market price and within a time scale of 6 months. This isn't me trying to scam anyone, i'm now at university and just need to secure this permanently one way or the other.

 

[GingerCat]

In that case I wish you all the best in resolving this situation which I'm sure is distressing to both parties.

Is there anyone who can mediate for you?

I know someone has already said that they had a similar situation where the police intervened, but it is certainly not usual for them to become involved in this sort of situation

Good Luck x

 

[Dry Rot]

I agree with wytsend.

I am not a lawyer, but doesn't there have to be "consideration" (i.e. something of value changing hands, usually money) to form a contract?

So, in my opinion, the loan is simply a loan and the word "permanent" is the opposite of "temporary", simply indicating a long term loan of unspecified duration. Because no money has changed hands, the loanee loses nothing if the loan is terminated. She has no rights other than possession of the horse until the owner decides otherwise.

The agreement to sell is not a contract either as no money has changed hands and no price has been agreed. It is quite ridiculous to suggest that someone can be held to have agreed to a purchase/sale if no price has been specified!

As for getting the horse back, I am sure the police would accompany the owner if they are made aware of the problem and it is explained that the owner fears things might get physical and she fears for her safety. The role of the police in this situation would simply be to maintain the peace, which is what they are paid to do.

 

[noodle_]

The trouble with turning up with a trailer is all his tack and rugs - I have none so wouldn't be able to ride him etc!!

you want the horse or the tack???




sod the tack - go get your horse!!

 

[Luci07]

I agree with wytsend.

I am not a lawyer, but doesn't there have to be "consideration" (i.e. something of value changing hands, usually money) to form a contract?

So, in my opinion, the loan is simply a loan and the word "permanent" is the opposite of "temporary", simply indicating a long term loan of unspecified duration. Because no money has changed hands, the loanee loses nothing if the loan is terminated. She has no rights other than possession of the horse until the owner decides otherwise.

The agreement to sell is not a contract either as no money has changed hands and no price has been agreed. It is quite ridiculous to suggest that someone can be held to have agreed to a purchase/sale if no price has been specified!

As for getting the horse back, I am sure the police would accompany the owner if they are made aware of the problem and it is explained that the owner fears things might get physical and she fears for her safety. The role of the police in this situation would simply be to maintain the peace, which is what they are paid to do.

I am not a lawyer either but did study some contract law as part of another course years ago. The one thing I can remember if that a contract is voided if one person seeks to amend it. In this case, the horse was offered for sale, the other person accepted (in writing). This then terminates the original contract.

However, you should note Police are not keen on being involved in what would be viewed as a civil matter and would ask for a lot of proof before attending this. You have to see it from their view - if all they get is a call with no evidence to back it up - where does that leave them? I am for notifying the police and seeking their advice but would not rely on them turning up.

MHOL is still the best option with the best experience and advice to give. Logically, OP must follow the correct legal route for the shortest response. I know our knee jerk reaction is just to wade in and take the horse back, but honestly, she could be sued for trespass and theft! or put herself in personal danger.

 

[MHOL]

Funny situation to be in. Ive had my section A pony here on loan for last 6 years and I have a contract saying on loan until payed for (no dates or such). Owner previously threatened to take the pony,but never has been to see her in the 6 years ive had her.Solicitor told me what she can and cant do.The passport is suppost to be with the horse/pony.

Im not sure where you stand as loanee isnt neglecting the horse or anything like that. Permanant loan means exactly that.

A Passport is not proof of ownership, a receipt is, a passport is documentation to be kept with the horse. A permanent loan can be retrieved so long as there was a contract. the word Loan means you lent it, other wise its free to a good home and a receipt issued stating ownership has passed on and the passport can be updated.

Anyone putting a horse on loan should notify the passport office that the horse is on loan and they will make sure it cannot be updated, also associate yourself on NED and flag the horse as on loan.

 

[Tinseltoes]

A Passport is not proof of ownership, a receipt is, a passport is documentation to be kept with the horse. A permanent loan can be retrieved so long as there was a contract. the word Loan means you lent it, other wise its free to a good home and a receipt issued stating ownership has passed on and the passport can be updated.

Anyone putting a horse on loan should notify the passport office that the horse is on loan and they will make sure it cannot be updated, also associate yourself on NED and flag the horse as on loan.

She refuses to give me the passport and has constantly lied about the ownership of the pony,saying she is the owner but then when I asked for the passport she says pony belongs to someone else.This woman was contstant in threatening to take the pony back if I didnt pay for the pony,contract only says " ON LOAN TILL PAYED FOR" there are NO to pay by dates and the worrying thing her changing her story & lying to me all the time about ownership of the pony,this woman might or might no be the real owner..So I do not have the passport and have no idea who its issued with either. No contact from the woman since.Horrible situation to be in.Had the pony 6 years.

 

[PollyP99]

The word permenant used here does not mean 'for life' just indetermined period, a loan is a loan and as many have said the owner can ALWAYS take the horse back. If you dont want to find yourself in this situation dont loan BUY.

I have a horse on loan, it is stated as permenant and no time specified but I know the owner will want her beloved back one day.

Don't forget by loaning we loaners have the option of sending the horse back should our circumstances change or god forbid something changes for the horse, you cant have that without the chance the owners circs can change too.

You have to be fair in these things so to say it is permenant is just daft, it works both ways dont forget!

 

[timthearab]

If your main concern is getting the horse back, forget the tack and rugs, you can deal with that later.
My horse was stolen while on loan, all his tack/rugs had been sold, that was the least of my concerns, I tracked him down, got him back and eventually got him new stuff. If you have a watertight loan contract you van probably get your stuff back, my loan contract was proof to the police and courts that she had stolen my belongings.

My horse went out on loan with tack, rugs etc. when he came home all i had was the horse, that was enough for me, people kindly helped out with rugs and tack, u can buy cheap enough tack from ebay.
Concentrate on getting the horse first and formost, then tack, rugs etc afterwards

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

on reading the situation it apears your on your own no help

I would go and find a solicitor ( i had to do this once ) get him or her on your side

ask them to write a letter and say if i dont here from you by such and such a day I reserve the right to take matters further


if they dont respond take them to small claims cost around £ 150 then sol fees and if you win they have to pay all. Sounds like unless you get help from MHOL you need to take this route

if the horse is being neglected you can get Horse Welfare involved makes your case stronger if not then u need to do one of the other 2 things the longer you leave it the harder it is

here is the page you need for small claims




http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/






........................................................

 

[corrie153]

this kind of happened to me. Put my horse on loan for a year while i was away and I gave the loanee the months notice like we had agreeded in the contract and when it came to me coming to collect him she either didnt answer her phone or kept putting it off. I eventually went to her yard while she was at work and took him from the field. When I had him safely home, went back and after a few empty handed trips I got my tack and rugs back.

 

[Luci07]

Where are you with this? have you managed to resolve it?

 

[MHOL]

No it hasn't been resolved yet, we need all the info to look at this objectively, will post an update when we can

 

[The_snoopster]

To be honest I feel I shall be going against the grain on this just from what I have read, OP you put your horse out on "permanent" loan. Now if someone puts a horse out on "permanent" loan like others have said unless the loaner is either somehow abusing or neglecting your horse, which you have stated is not the case as you can see he is being treated well as you are going past the yard it makes the term "permanant" useless.
If I had loaned your horse with the agreement it would be permanant I also would say no to you, when you loaned out his horse maybe you should of thought about wether you wanted it back at some point and done yearly contracts. And maybe the small claims court may see it in the same light, this person has a contract which you signed saying she could have the horse for ever because thats what "permanent" actually means.

 

[MHOL]

To be honest I feel I shall be going against the grain on this just from what I have read, OP you put your horse out on "permanent" loan. Now if someone puts a horse out on "permanent" loan like others have said unless the loaner is either somehow abusing or neglecting your horse, which you have stated is not the case as you can see he is being treated well as you are going past the yard it makes the term "permanant" useless.
If I had loaned your horse with the agreement it would be permanant I also would say no to you, when you loaned out his horse maybe you should of thought about wether you wanted it back at some point and done yearly contracts. And maybe the small claims court may see it in the same light, this person has a contract which you signed saying she could have the horse for ever because thats what "permanent" actually means.

Its still a loan, it does not mean you have signed your rights away or given the horse away.

 

[henryhorn]

I can see both sides, you felt you had found your horse a permanent loving home, she has spent money and time on caring for him on that basis. You feel because he is still in your ownership she should hand him back.
I would advise writing to her by signed for post, stating that under the terms of the contract you are giving her notice of requiring your horse back within the agreed limit, and that you will be giving her until then to purchase him for x amount. (do be fair here!) , and that if these conditions are not complied with you will use the SCCourt to deal with the problem.
A cheap way of getting legal advice is to join the Country Landowners Assoc, it costs around £100 but they have top lawyers advising you and nothing else to pay. I had a chap dump 3 horses on me and then didn't pay me for three and a half years, eventually I issued a tuit on the lawyer's advice and claimed ownership. The SCC is not expensive and should I'm sure be worth your while trying.
Do think hard however, your horse sounds settled, happy and well cared for, if it's for financial reasons you want him back, perhaps think of how she has cared for him at her own expense and deserves some sympathy..

 

[The_snoopster]

Its still a loan, it does not mean you have signed your rights away or given the horse away.

I totally agree with that statement, but when someone usually loans their horse out on a permenant basis thats what it means unless the horse is being mistreated or abused/neglected in some way. Its not really fair on the person who has been given the horse on a permenant loan to have it taken back for no other reason than the owner wants to sell it on. The owner should of just put it out on loan with yearly contracts so the person loaning the horse knows exactly where they stand.

 

[MHOL]

There is more to this than is known on here, no one can justify unless they know the full facts