Loaner/ Borrower Expectations. Advice Please?

Orca

Orca

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I posted a while ago about my struggle with ME and my concerns over what would be the best option for Orca.

A couple of days ago, she went to people who are going to bring her on a little, put her out on loan on my behalf, then continue welfare checks for the year.

I am retaining ownership and I haven't loaned out before, so I'm a little unclear as to what it would be appropriate to include in the loan agreement (BHS template) and what expectations loanees might have.

i.e. I saw she'd been put into a Pelham yesterday (and upside down), questioned it and was met with a quite snippy response. She isn't yet taking contact, so I hadn't felt questioning its use was particularly untoward but was made to feel overly attached and controlling for doing so - fortunately all resolved now.

So, what things do and don't people include in a loan agreement?

She's a feathered, long mane and tailed Traditional - She's a good show prospect, so I'd like her kept this way?

She's rising seven and never been shod. The farrier is 100% happy with her hooves - I'd like her kept unshod?

I'd like her kept in a snaffle unless otherwise agreed?

What should and shouldn't I add?
 
JennBags said:
Sorry but if they're fitting a harsh bit incorrectly, and getting snippy with it, I'd not be loaning my horse to them.
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This ^^ If they are that inexperienced they are not really the right people to be "bringing her on" then finding an appropriately suitable home for her once they have finished, sorry if it is not what you want to hear but if she were mine she would be coming home at least she would be at no risk turned out in a field.

OP you are right to question them, it has nothing to do with being controlling.
 
agree-think again. A pelham can be a useful bit in the right hands but a person who doesn't know how put one on the right way up shouldn't be using one and isn't capable of bringing a youngster on :(

I would certainly put bit type in a loan agreement as a loaner and wouldn't dream of changing a bit without permission as a loanee. You can put anything you like in a loan agreement and its worth going over it with the loanee in detail beforehand for discussion.
 
Thank you for validating my reaction on that point, as I said it is resolved, here's why-

Orca had a nasty teeth clonk on a metal bit a short while ago. It made her shy (understandably), so to restore her happiness in being bitted, I switched to the only mullen happy mouth to hand - a gag, strictly on the snaffle ring (the other rings acting as a fulmer) and this is the bit I sent her up with, with a full explanation as to why. She was collected a couple of weeks earlier than expected, so I didn't have opportunity to replace it with a mullen snaffle.

I stipulated the use of a soft mouth bit and (following a mild eruption from me and subsequent snippiness), it eventually transpired that the Pelham was the only happy mouth which fit her that they had to hand, that they apparently didn't have the curb attached (and it was on roundings, so poll pressure dramatically reduced).

I would have preferred the gag acting as a hanging snaffle in the interim but there is probably little in it. I have of course said I will send a snaffle asap, just as I would have replaced it asap if she were still with me.

Obviously fitting a Pelham upside down is worrying but they did realise and rectify this before I'd even seen the vid and photo's. It's still worrying, I know.
 
you will need to take a step back - you can stipulate health wise eg. no shoes, not trimming mane/tail but if you start wanting to stipulate how tehy ride it means you are not happy with the rider and trying to control minor issues like this will mean the arrangement won't work
if you are not comfortable to leave the rider to get on with it, albeit with checks to make sure way og going is maintained than find a different arrangement.
 
Orca said:
She's a feathered, long mane and tailed Traditional - She's a good show prospect, so I'd like her kept this way?
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I would specify this in the loan agreement, as I would clip the feathers off the minute she arrived on my yard!

Have you let someone have her without anything in writing though? I am feeling a little worried for you.
 
Thanks Susie. Obviously being happy with the rider would be something that would occur before loaning takes place so that's not really what I mean (unless she's being ridden in a harsh or otherwise obviously detrimental way, obviously).

More things like the bit issue outlined above (about which I'm glad I didn't take a step back) and as you say, hooves and hair. What else do people tend to add?
 
PonyclubmumZ said:
I would specify this in the loan agreement, as I would clip the feathers off the minute she arrived on my yard!

Have you let someone have her without anything in writing though? I am feeling a little worried for you.
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Thank you. Every communication is in writing. She has gone to a place with good online presence, who keep a register of owners (a paid for service which helps prevent horses on loan from going missing/ being sold or becoming unlinked from their owners) and who as one of their services carry out welfare checks for people who have horses out on loan.
 
Agree with others...if they're unable to fit a Pelham correctly I would question their ability to bring on a young/green horse and wouldn't necessarily trust their judgement to find a suitable loan home when the time comes...then again I'm not sure I'd trust anyone but myself to find a loan home for one of mine.
 
FestiveFuzz said:
Agree with others...if they're unable to fit a Pelham correctly I would question their ability to bring on a young/green horse and wouldn't necessarily trust their judgement to find a suitable loan home when the time comes...then again I'm not sure I'd trust anyone but myself to find a loan home for one of mine.
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I know. Under less difficult circumstances I wouldn't either but living in the back of beyond meant loanee options were extremely limited. I did try but there was little appropriate interest and her level of education made it even more difficult.

Someone offering to bring her on for a couple of weeks. then loaning her out on my behalf really was the best opportunity which arose. Particularly when it was someone who offers loan welfare checks to horse owners as a service and brings on and adopts out ex-racers.

I do see the Pelham issue as a big one. Fitting one is second nature to me, as I'm sure it would be to most of us, so I'm confused as to how this was bungled. However, there are bits I'm less familiar with.
 
A loan agreement should be drafted out, mutually agreed and countersigned before a horse goes out on loan.

Sorry, Orca, I know your health is not the best but I wouldn't leave her with these people, as they don't sound very knowledgeable. There are all sorts of self proclaimed 'experts' in the horse world who talk the talk but I wouldn't let near any of my horses.

However, without a loan agreement, it may not be that easy to get her back if they play difficult.

Once you do get her back, can she just go out to grass somewhere?
 
I'd have her removed. Even if the Pelham was the only bit they had on hand why did they use roundings? Why not just put the reins on the snaffle part? They don't sound experienced enough to bring on a youngster and I fear they may I create problems that could cost you lots to sort out.
 
I am not sure if it is the "professional" people who have fitted the Pelham incorrectly, or the new loanee?

Either way, I know it is not what you want to hear, but I would have her back.

It is not just the bit being fitted incorrectly, it is the snipy-ness afterwards too. I think long term it has the potential to be more stressful than turning her away.
 
I'm sorry, I've not made myself very clear. I am in an ME fugg today.

The professional people fitted the Pelham incorrectly.

Orca is with them until they loan her out on my behalf in a couple of weeks.

I'm creating the loan agreement now, in preparation for her going out on loan.

My original post was to ask for advice in creating that agreement (adding extras to the BHS template). The issues with and surrounding the bit raised queries for me (as a first time loaner) as to what is and isn't appropriate to include.

I completely understand and appreciate (very much) everyones reactions to the bit debacle. They reflect how I felt at the time but that is now resolved and we have agreed a bit going forwards from there.

Attaching and inserting a Pelham upside down is obviously worrying BUT they sent me vid and photo's of this after realising and rectifying their mistake, with their apologies - I appreciate that level of honesty. They could not have bothered and I would have been none the wiser. It was my querying the use of a Pelham which provoked a snippy response.

Snippyness is inappropriate but this is not the loan home. Essentially, this is someone doing both Orca and I a favour.

I am incredibly attached to her. She was a quaking shell when I met her and to see the confidence she left me with (which shows no signs of diminishing in the videos I've been sent) and her quick, happy progress as they re-cap on the work I've done with her, is wonderful. So, there is a very positive side to this which I have to balance with the bit issue.

In balance, I think I will keep a close eye on her (as I would have done anyway). I will visit her soon. I will be quite extensive in my loan requirements :)
 
Orca said:
I know. Under less difficult circumstances I wouldn't either but living in the back of beyond meant loanee options were extremely limited. I did try but there was little appropriate interest and her level of education made it even more difficult.

Someone offering to bring her on for a couple of weeks. then loaning her out on my behalf really was the best opportunity which arose. Particularly when it was someone who offers loan welfare checks to horse owners as a service and brings on and adopts out ex-racers.

I do see the Pelham issue as a big one. Fitting one is second nature to me, as I'm sure it would be to most of us, so I'm confused as to how this was bungled. However, there are bits I'm less familiar with.
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Totally appreciate you were kinda stuck between and rock and a hard place but I would be worried about them ruining her and then you being stuck having to undo their bad schooling, which will only make it harder to find a loan home for her.

ETA: sorry just read your last post. In answer to your OP I would certainly stipulate you don't want her hogged or feathers removed.
 
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Add in ANYTHING which is important to you. For me, that was making sure my mare had turnout every day. Everything else I left up to the loaner to decide.
I too believe that leaving your girl with these "professionals" who didn't manage to get a very straightforward bit the right way up is a bad idea.
 
FFS you have to be a TOTAL novice to put a Pelham in a horse's mouth upside down!! Most genuine "novices" would have more of a clue TBH.

Absolutely shocking.

I wouldn't let anyone like this have any animal of mine.

OP if you would like to PM me and give me your e-mail - I'd be quite happy to send you a copy of the loan agreement I used for my boy when he went out on loan. I used quite a bit from the BHS website as there is a pro forma loan agreement there if you'd like to take a look.
 
Presumably you are paying them, so they're not doing you a favour and sniping under any circumstances is not acceptable to a paying customer, unless they're very very wrong, which you weren't. I do hope it works out for you, but I would also put her on grass, particularly given her confidence in you. She has no ambitions to take on the world, so I wouldn't worry too much about her education right now.
 
A professional putting a Pelham on upside down. .... seriously? I would take her and put her on grass livery ASAP -I'd rather the horse had no education rather than a bad education.
 
We put in things like not to be competed above BE90 level without written permission, similarly with regard to hunting. We stated all known issues past and present and for them to call us if they had any problems. We also ensured we went to see them at least a couple of times in the first month but we also made sure that we were supportive without being too involved. Loaning arrangements are fraught with problems and owners who want to control every element of the loan are likely to drive loaners away. You need to be involved enough that you are sure the horse is being well cared for but distant enough that you don't put them off.
 
I have to agree with others, I would take her straight back if she were mine. If these people put a pelham in her mouth upside down, they are not professionals in any sense of the word. You were perfectly within your rights to question their reasoning for using the pelham and there is no excuse for them reacting in a snippy way to make you feel uncomfortable. I would be quite worried about their potential effect on her education/confidence whilst sue is in their care and would not trust their judgement to find her a suitable home.

With regards to the loan agreement, I would stipulate that she is not to be trimmed/hogged and to be left traditional. Things like keeping her barefoot, I think you should state that you would like her kept this way, and that the loaner is to ensure appropriate weight/diet management for healthy hooves. With regards to tack, I'm not sure if you can have that much control over once she is out on loan TBH.
 
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I had to go and get a pelham out of the cupboard and see how you could fit it upside down - it takes a special kind of stupid. I am sorry you are ill, OP, but I know more about horses than these 'professionals'. It sounds like a nice little earner for them.
If she is very green you may well struggle to find a loan home, you are in effect hoping someone will bring her on for you. I would turn her away and get her bought on for you to ride when you are feeling stronger, by a real professional.
 
The OP has already stated that the people that put the Pelham in upside down noticed almost immediately and rectified it. Possibly they had someone junior tacking up for them and it was noticed by the actual person doing the schooling ? Also OP has said that this is an interim place only as the horse is actually going out on loan to someone else, there is nothing in OP post to indicate that the loanee home is that of a novice.

OP has asked for advice on what to put in the loan agreement, not whether you would loan your horse out.
 
The only happy mouth straight they had was a Pelham. They wanted to use it as a straight bar long cheek snaffle ,and the easiest way to do that was to fit it upside down to get the cheek piece ring out of the way. It makes sense to me while they waited to get hold of the right bit. I don't think it was a mistake at all, just a seasoned pro doing their best with what they had available, surely?


PS just seen the post above. I'm betting that they turned it because she copped a wobbler, not because they did it accidentally.
 
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