Loaner/ Borrower Expectations. Advice Please?

[Lizzie66]

The only happy mouth straight they had was a Pelham. They wanted to use it as a straight bar long cheek snaffle ,and the easiest way to do that was to fit it upside down to get the cheek piece ring out of the way. It makes sense to me while they waited to get hold of the right bit. I don't think it was a mistake at all, just a seasoned pro doing their best with what they had available, surely?


PS just seen the post above. I'm betting that they turned it because she copped a wobbler, not because they did it accidentally.

You may well be right I was just trying to make a point that fitting a Pelham upside down was not the end of the world !! Most of the posts on here seem to be making it out to be such a heinous crime that the horse should be removed immediately in case something dire happens. There are normally other ways to look at things and without having the full story I don't care to judge too harshly.

 

[ycbm]

You may well be right I was just trying to make a point that fitting a Pelham upside down was not the end of the world !! Most of the posts on here seem to be making it out to be such a heinous crime that the horse should be removed immediately in case something dire happens. There are normally other ways to look at things and without having the full story I don't care to judge too harshly.

I think if I couldn't see a logical reason and it was a mistake, I'd have had my horse out of there quicker than a rat up a drain pipe

 

[Orca]

The OP has already stated that the people that put the Pelham in upside down noticed almost immediately and rectified it. Possibly they had someone junior tacking up for them and it was noticed by the actual person doing the schooling ? Also OP has said that this is an interim place only as the horse is actually going out on loan to someone else, there is nothing in OP post to indicate that the loanee home is that of a novice.

OP has asked for advice on what to put in the loan agreement, not whether you would loan your horse out.

Thank you, Lizzie.

The only happy mouth straight they had was a Pelham. They wanted to use it as a straight bar long cheek snaffle ,and the easiest way to do that was to fit it upside down to get the cheek piece ring out of the way. It makes sense to me while they waited to get hold of the right bit. I don't think it was a mistake at all, just a seasoned pro doing their best with what they had available, surely?


PS just seen the post above. I'm betting that they turned it because she copped a wobbler, not because they did it accidentally.

No, I'm afraid you are wrong. They sent me video and photo of her with an upside down Pelham, saying they had realised their mistake after having her out in hand in it and had turned it upon realising -not due to a 'wobbler'.

I think if I couldn't see a logical reason and it was a mistake, I'd have had my horse out of there quicker than a rat up a drain pipe

I will be back later to answer more fully.

 

[Crackerz]

When i loaned a pony out years ago, i had things in the contract about how long his mane & forelock should be, his tail shouldn't be pulled too short or cut above X point etc. I stipulated he was leaving me in Show ring condition and turn out and he was to return to me in the exact same condition - ready to enter the show ring.

Never had a moments problem with them, they were amazing loaners and ended up buying my boy.

 

[Merlod]

That she is to be ridden only by the intended loaner/s.

That she is to be left with full mane and feathers. You may want to also say no to neckrugs if you don't want her mane rubbed out.

That you are to be notified of any injuries/ illness right away.

Daily turnout even in winter. Also specify if you have a preference for turnout (i.e. I would never send a horse of mine to individual turnout, I prefer group or herd)

To be ridden in a snaffle only.

To be shod every 6 weeks, or if barefoot to be trimmed every 8.

Must have saddle and teeth checked 6 montly/ yearly and you would like to see report.

They must worm and vaccinate.

If you have any specific feed/ supplements you would like to keep her on.

Anything you send her with must be returned in appropriate condition or replaced if broken.

How much notice you would neither either way if either party cancels the loan.

 

[Orca]

Thanks everyone. I do appreciate all of your input and views.

Merlod, what you have written is similar to what I have so far. That which isn't contained in the BHS agreement, I've added to Schedule 2 as follows...

SCHEDULE 2
2 RESPONSIBILITIES
The horse,
2.1 Must receive adequate turnout.
2.2 Must be kept true to type, fully feathered with long mane and tail.
2.3 Must remain in a pee wee bit unless a change has been discussed with the owner,
2.4 Must only wear saddles fitted to her by a qualified saddler and have saddle fit checked annually,
2.5 Must receive a suitable general vitamin and mineral supplement,
2.6 Must remain unshod and trimmed,
2.7 Must have diet and exercise managed to avoid weight gain and laminitis.
2.8 Must receive teeth float annually.
2.9 Must travel with protective leg and tail bandages on.
2.10 Must not receive ‘dectomax’ injections.

 

[Orca]

Thanks everyone. I do appreciate all of your input and views.

Merlod, what you have written is similar to what I have so far. That which isn't contained in the BHS agreement, I've added to Schedule 2 as follows...

SCHEDULE 2
2 RESPONSIBILITIES
The horse,
2.1 Must receive adequate turnout.
2.2 Must be kept true to type, fully feathered with long mane and tail.
2.3 Must remain in a pee wee bit unless a change has been discussed with the owner,
2.4 Must only wear saddles fitted to her by a qualified saddler and have saddle fit checked annually,
2.5 Must receive a suitable general vitamin and mineral supplement,
2.6 Must remain unshod and trimmed,
2.7 Must have diet and exercise managed to avoid weight gain and laminitis.
2.8 Must receive teeth float annually.
2.9 Must travel with protective leg and tail bandages on.
2.10 Must not receive ‘dectomax’ injections.

 

[ester]

Is she allergic to dectomax?

 

[Orca]

Is she allergic to dectomax?

Not that I know of. She had feather mite when she arrived with me and on discussion with my vet, we felt it best to avoid dectomax as a treatment option. At that point she was very overweight, so we didn't want to do anything which might precipitate a laminitic episode.

She's now not overweight but is very much a 'good doer'. She's shown no signs of lami but having lost a family horse to it many (many) years ago, I'd prefer to avoid it's use when there are other viable alternatives in feather mite treatment.

 

[ester]

Maybe it would be better to say veterinary treatment to be given with consultation with the owner? (except in an emergency)

 

[Orca]

That's much better wording, thank you.

 

[ycbm]

No, I'm afraid you are wrong. They sent me video and photo of her with an upside down Pelham, saying they had realised their mistake after having her out in hand in it and had turned it upon realising -not due to a 'wobbler'.



I will be back later to answer more fully.

Can we see the video? I just can't get my head around anyone except a person who's never seen a horse putting a Pelham on upside down as a mistake

 

[ester]

That's much better wording, thank you.

No probs, we used to loan and had similar wording with vets issues. Please do include that in case of emergency if you cannot be contacted they have permission to PTS under vets advice.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Is she insured? If so, who is responsible for paying the the premiums? I'd advise that you pay the premium, and the person loaning reimburses you. Who pays the excess? Are all vets fees and medications payable by the person loaning, or will you contribute?

I have both had horses on loan, and loaned them out. The loan agreement must be clear, but if it comes across as too controlling, you will put people off.

I hope it goes well, but IMHO the chances of finding a good competent loan home who will correctly bring on someone else's very green and slightly nervous horse for no monetary reward are very slim, I'm afraid.

 

[Orca]

Can we see the video? I just can't get my head around anyone except a person who's never seen a horse putting a Pelham on upside down as a mistake

I know. Me either. I could send it by pm, maybe?

 

[Orca]

No probs, we used to loan and had similar wording with vets issues. Please do include that in case of emergency if you cannot be contacted they have permission to PTS under vets advice.

Thank you, yes, that part is included in the body of the loan agreement.

Is she insured? If so, who is responsible for paying the the premiums? I'd advise that you pay the premium, and the person loaning reimburses you. Who pays the excess? Are all vets fees and medications payable by the person loaning, or will you contribute?

I have both had horses on loan, and loaned them out. The loan agreement must be clear, but if it comes across as too controlling, you will put people off.

I hope it goes well, but IMHO the chances of finding a good competent loan home who will correctly bring on someone else's very green and slightly nervous horse for no monetary reward are very slim, I'm afraid.

She is insured and I will be keeping her insured. I'm not too worried about seeking reimbursement for the premium but within the body of the loan agreement it states the 'borrower' will pay any excess. Any ongoing treatments, etc are something I need to give consideration, thank you.

I agree with your concerns and it is part of why I sent her to be brought on a little before being loaned, in the hope it would raise her chances. The people who have her were very confident that they would be able to find a suitable home and spoke about several prospective ones - now, I'm not so sure. All talk of prospective loanees seems to have dried up.

 

[ycbm]

I know. Me either. I could send it by pm, maybe?

If you send me it by pm, I'll do a drawing of it so no-one is identified, and then we'll all be clearer about how they even managed to fasten it the straps

I'm off out for a while, I'll see if you've sent it later.

 

[electric_circus]

I have both had horses on loan, and loaned them out. The loan agreement must be clear, but if it comes across as too controlling, you will put people off.

I hope it goes well, but IMHO the chances of finding a good competent loan home who will correctly bring on someone else's very green and slightly nervous horse for no monetary reward are very slim, I'm afraid.

One of mine came on loan, though his old owner eventually offered him to us to buy and we gladly bought him... no way would I have loaned where the agreement was so controlling to the nth degree! I'd like to think I was a good loaner; she did offer him to us permanently in the end after all! The owner was welcome to visit when she liked (she came once in 2 years, though it was quite a long way) and I made sure I put lots of pics and updates on FB so she could see he was happy and well-looked after and equally that there was nothing to hide. We are still in contact, I sent her a picture of him only this morning!

There are some super horses available for loan at the moment, with owners who won't be so controlling - the one we eventually bought was 14, a bombproof hack and a kind and tolerant ride for even the most nervous novice, but schools and will jump 3' and has (touch wood) never had a day's unsoundness in the time we've had him.

I'm afraid I agree with Tiddlypom that it is going to be difficult to find someone for a green and nervous horse in the first place, and especially if you are going to attach loads of stipulations to the arrangement. As an ex-loanee I would also have wondered if your situation would be one where I would spend lots of time, effort and money bringing the horse on and then you would just ask for her back! Of course a loan horse will always belong to the owner, but you must recognise that the loanee will have a stake in the horse, even emotionally, let alone financially. If your situation is unlikely to change in the medium to long-term, could it be worth thinking about LWVTB and looking for a long-term permanent home for her?

 

[Orca]

Admittedly, I was made to feel nervous and less trusting due to the bit debacle, which came just as I was forming the loan agreement. However, the majority of the stipulations I have attached are just common sense and part of normal, everyday horse care. Because they aren't outlandish stipulations, I would hope they wouldn't be seen as overly controlling, etc.

I guess I would expect an owner to have some say - if I didn't care for her welfare and future, then I would sell her. Retaining ownership is one way in which I can try to ensure the best is done by her and obviously, if I'm not going to exercise that right and responsibility, then selling up would be the obvious option.

I have discussed what to do at length on other threads and either grass livery or loaning were the two most supported options that came out of those discussions and selling very much not.

As I said in my last post, the people who have her now were previously very confident they would find her a loanee, hence my letting her go to them. I'm going to have to continue to think about where to go from here.

 

[ester]

As a loaner I wouldn't think the list excessive and muc hbetter for everyone to know where they stand on things.

 

[Palindrome]

I think the peewee bit might cause problems as not dressage legal?

 

[smja]

If you send me it by pm, I'll do a drawing of it so no-one is identified, and then we'll all be clearer about how they even managed to fasten it the straps

I'm off out for a while, I'll see if you've sent it later.

I've seen it done - they attached the cheekpiece to the curb ring, but thankfully at that point realised the bit was sitting too low and it was awkward to attach the reins, so rang me. I ended up going over there as I couldn't visualise it over the phone!

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

The pelham story doesn't add up. It wasn't the only happy mouth bit they had which fit her (as per their story) - they had the bit you sent her in. I agree with whoever said it takes a special kind of stupid to put a pelham on upside down in the first place.

I question how they think they can bring a horse on much in 2wks. If it's not suitable to go out on loan in the beginning, 2wks schooling isn't going to make much difference, and anything learned could easily revert backwards within a few weeks with a less experienced rider loaning her. The reason everyone is saying take her home because of the pelham, is because people who are that stupid as to fit a pelham upside down probably can't bring on a green horse at all. I presume you're paying them for this 2wks schooling? Money down the drain IMO. I'd be concerned that "finding her a suitable loan home" just means accepting someone who you wouldn't find suitable, too.


The register is bull as well. It's not the National Equine Database is it, so how exactly does it prevent a horse going missing while on loan? It doesn't, I'll bet. If someone sold your horse on without her passport, how is this "owners register", belonging only to this particular company, going to prevent the sale taking place? Does it even prevent the passport issuer changing ownership details? How would the passport issuer know to contact this company to check who the registered owner is and whether the horse is out on loan? That's something you can cover yourself for by speaking direct with the passport issuer in any case, you can easily tell them yourself that the horse has gone out on loan so not to change the ownership details. This register is just a way of getting the horses owners to part with more cash. They're a business, of course they need to keep a record of who they're dealing with: owners details tied into horses details and loanees details. They've just found a way of marketing it as a service offered just for you owners and asking you to pay for the privilage.

No way are these people doing you a favour. They're just earning a living by offering a service. Nothing wrong with that, just remember you're the customer. If they've got you thinking they're doing you a favour it sounds like they've suckered you right in.

With the loan contract, put anything you don't want to be changed in there. Not that it actually stops someone changing things. You can write whatever you like but you need to accept the possibility of your horse coming back hogged, injected and with confidence issues or whatever. A contract makes your expectations clear and you hope that decent people will abide by it, but a contract doesn't stop less than decent people doing whatever they like the minute you're out of the picture.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Sorry but a professional would not fit a Pelham bit upside down, and I can't believe a yard that takes horses for schooling had a such a small choice of bits to use, and as for someone getting snippy when your paying them for a professional service that would have done it for me, I would be over there that day to collect my horse, op I hope for your sake it all works out well for you especially as you are ill.

 

[Lizzie66]

We put the following in ours:

The Borrower agrees to be responsible for ensuring prompt and required veterinary treatment by a registered and qualified veterinary surgeon at all times. The liability for payment of the aforesaid veterinary treatment lies solely with the Borrower they also agree to keep the Horse routinely and timely fully vaccinated and wormed according to a recognised veterinary programme and keep a record of the same, at the Borrower's expense

In the event that the Horse sustains an injury or develops an illness that will prevent it from fulfilling the purpose set out in clause 3.3 for a period exceeding 30 days the Borrower may terminate the agreement (with appropriate notice) and return the horse, the Borrower will be responsible for Veterinary Fees relating directly and immediately to said injury even after termination of the agreement. The Owner will be responsible for Veterinary Fees relating to illness. For this purpose illnesses caused by poor management of the horse by the Borrower will constitute injuries not illness. (we put this in so that if he got say laminitis which would be illness not injury then they would be responsible for the vets bills as it is preventable with correct care)

The Borrower is responsible for ensuring that the Horse is fully insured for veterinary treatment, third party liability, travelling, saddlery and tack at all times for its full value as agreed to be £x for horse plus tack/equipment in Schedule 3 (full list of everything that went with him, condition and approx. replacement value) and the liability for payment of the aforesaid insurance lies solely with the Borrower. If the Borrower fails to insure the Horse and its effects the Borrower assumes full liability for any loss or damage, including any third party liability

You will have to change your policy if the horse is going on loan and the cost may well increase as from the insurers point of view they are effectively creating an additional contractual relationship and they may judge the risk to be higher.

 

[mayangold]

sorry to be morbid- does the agreement cover what happens if a decision needs to be made about being put down by a vet in an all singing all dancing emergancy ONLY and ONLY IF the loanee cant get hold of you?

 

[Orca]

I think the peewee bit might cause problems as not dressage legal?

Ah, of course! Yes. So, 'mullen mouth snaffle or peewee' maybe? The peewee is the one which we agreed on following the Pelham issue, which she seems happy in.

We put the following in ours:

The Borrower agrees to be responsible for ensuring prompt and required veterinary treatment by a registered and qualified veterinary surgeon at all times. The liability for payment of the aforesaid veterinary treatment lies solely with the Borrower they also agree to keep the Horse routinely and timely fully vaccinated and wormed according to a recognised veterinary programme and keep a record of the same, at the Borrower's expense

In the event that the Horse sustains an injury or develops an illness that will prevent it from fulfilling the purpose set out in clause 3.3 for a period exceeding 30 days the Borrower may terminate the agreement (with appropriate notice) and return the horse, the Borrower will be responsible for Veterinary Fees relating directly and immediately to said injury even after termination of the agreement. The Owner will be responsible for Veterinary Fees relating to illness. For this purpose illnesses caused by poor management of the horse by the Borrower will constitute injuries not illness. (we put this in so that if he got say laminitis which would be illness not injury then they would be responsible for the vets bills as it is preventable with correct care)

The Borrower is responsible for ensuring that the Horse is fully insured for veterinary treatment, third party liability, travelling, saddlery and tack at all times for its full value as agreed to be £x for horse plus tack/equipment in Schedule 3 (full list of everything that went with him, condition and approx. replacement value) and the liability for payment of the aforesaid insurance lies solely with the Borrower. If the Borrower fails to insure the Horse and its effects the Borrower assumes full liability for any loss or damage, including any third party liability

You will have to change your policy if the horse is going on loan and the cost may well increase as from the insurers point of view they are effectively creating an additional contractual relationship and they may judge the risk to be higher.

Thank you, we are using the BHS template and I'm satisfied with the way most of the basics are covered within. It's more the schedule 2 stipulations that I've been pondering but these are all useful points to ensure are included. I will call her insurers to find out what's what with them.

I have also been in touch with her PIO to flag her passport in case it is returned to them for updating with any new details without my knowledge, which as mentioned above is prudent anyway.

mayangold, yes, that's covered

 

[be positive]

Ah, of course! Yes. So, 'mullen mouth snaffle or peewee' maybe? The peewee is the one which we agreed on following the Pelham issue, which she seems happy in.

If she goes to a suitably experienced home they should be allowed to change the bit as and when required, once she develops in her education she may prefer something else, I think stipulating just one bit is too restrictive and may not actually be in her best interests, finding the correct home should give you the confidence to let them make decisions such as bitting without them having to contact you for approval each time they want to make minor tweaks to her tack.

I often change a bit when giving a lesson, I would be shocked if the rider said it was not allowed under the loan agreement and that they needed to contact the owner first, if the loaners and their instructor cannot make this type of decision I would not want to loan to them in the first place.

 

[Orca]

If she goes to a suitably experienced home they should be allowed to change the bit as and when required, once she develops in her education she may prefer something else, I think stipulating just one bit is too restrictive and may not actually be in her best interests, finding the correct home should give you the confidence to let them make decisions such as bitting without them having to contact you for approval each time they want to make minor tweaks to her tack.

I often change a bit when giving a lesson, I would be shocked if the rider said it was not allowed under the loan agreement and that they needed to contact the owner first, if the loaners and their instructor cannot make this type of decision I would not want to loan to them in the first place.

I don't see a bit change as a minor tweak to tack. For me, bitting is a big deal (and as highlighted with the Pelham issue, 'pros' can and do make mistakes), so I will be keeping that point included but I do appreciate your thoughts, thank you.

 

[be positive]

I don't see a bit change as a minor tweak to tack. For me, bitting is a big deal (and as highlighted with the Pelham issue, 'pros' can and do make mistakes), so I will be keeping that point included but I do appreciate your thoughts, thank you.

My point was that as she develops she may need a bit change, in my experience very few horses are happy in mullen mouths once they become more educated and established, very few will remain in the same bit from breaking even for the first year, I do think changing from one snaffle to another is a minor tweak and often several changes will be required until you find the right one, at this stage in her training you really cannot tell what she will prefer even a month down the line.

The pelham issue is hopefully a one off and as I said if you find a home you trust the pros involved should be more competent than to put in a bit upside down, if you don't trust someone to make a few adjustments to tack, putting a martingale on as a precaution for example, then maybe they are not the correct people for your horse.