Loaner unfortunately lost horse but now in tricky situation...

exactly!
If I lose my own tenner, that's my problem, but if I lend you a tenner, I want it paid back, whether you spent it or lost it. So, the OP insured the horse to save forking out its value from their own pocket.
 
Cowpony said:
Exactly! You, like most of us I suspect, would want something to say that if the loaner couldn't return the horse for any reason you would be compensated. Unfortunately that wasn't the case here, and we only have the OPs word for it that the owner said she could keep the insurance money. That is a bizarre thing to agree to and is contradicted by the owner's subsequent request for half the money, which suggests that she didn't actually agree to the OP keeping the money. Regardless of what was or wasn't agreed the OP has sustained no financial loss and what she was insuring was not the loss of the horse, which wasn't hers to insure, but her liability to compensate the owner if she couldn't return the horse.
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Think you may have crossed wires here regarding replying to each others posts! I'm on OP's side atm regarding this, not the owners.
 
Fides said:
But yet you say that if you were loaning your horse you would expect the loaner to pay you...
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Could you quote me on that? Wasn't aware I stated I would expect a loaner to pay for the loan of the horse and/or fully or even partly reimburse me of the loaners insured Policy value of a horse I loaned out without a specific and detailed contract in place before the horse exchanged hands?
 
I have a pony out on loan I don't insure him his loaner does. If anything were happen to him I would not expect the money. They have had him a number of years and I have paid nothing for him in that time
 
A few years ago I had a horse on winter loan from a riding stables, the owners didn't insure their horses as due to numbers it wasn't economically viable. However I did insure her as she was effectively a business asset and if anything had happened in the time I owned her they would have had to replace her and I didn't want them to be out of pocket.
I also loaned another mare recently and when I insured her Pet Plan required the owners details. Any claim for vet's fees would have been paid to me and in the event of the horse's death the value to the owner.
 
Illusion, I wouldnt lend you so much as a pen if that is how you treat other peoples property.

Its stories like this that completely put me off loaning any horse or pony ever again.
I had a gorgeous 12.2hh perfect 1st or second pony, he did everything from tiny tots lead rein to eventing for pony club teams! he was worth his weight in gold. When my sister, my cousin and I alloutgrew this pony he was put out on loan,not because we didnt care but because we did! The pony was happiest in a job, doing something but was hopeessly outgrown and we did not want to lose control of his future.
He gave many young girls great joy as very few people can afford or find a pony like him, but it is loaners like you that eventualy ment he sat in our field doing nothing for the best part of 8 years as we couldnt trust Loaners with our precious pony!

If something is lent to you then you must return it when asked to. As the OP can no longer return the horse then she must return the horses value.

People are forever bemoaning the fact that there are no good loan horses/ponies available or that the animals owners are crazy/controlling/idiots (take your pi of the colourful names I've heard given to horse owners who loan thier animal out) but is it realy suprising no one is willing to loan out horses when the attitude of loaners tends to be of wanting everything for nothing! by loaning a horse you are not helping the owner, they are helping you!
 
I wish the people who loaned my horse had thought like most of you.
All I got was a dead horse, (who'd been competing at 2* worth approx 25k) and a 5 figure vet bill. Not so much as a thank-you, never mind a bouquet! :rolleyes3:

Taught me some valuable (but very expensive) lessons.

- never take anyone's word for anything
- never mix business and friends
- and kindness rarely gets you anywhere

So as I say, legally, the OP can take the money.
Morally, I think she's being a ****.

Not that it matters, as I suspect that the whole thing was a work of fiction designed to advertise the blog in OPs username :rolleyes3:
 
I am loanee and loaner.
In both cases i pay the premiums. If anything happened to the pony i loan out I would expect to receive the money.
For the horse I loan, I would pass the money on to his owner. He belongs to her. I didn't buy him and I do not own him so why would I expect to keep the payout.

in this case there is an agreement though so I would expect that to stand.
 
Patterdale said:
Not that it matters, as I suspect that the whole thing was a work of fiction designed to advertise the blog in OPs username :rolleyes3:
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What a clever blooming troll!!

Though this is a topic dear to my heart and something I have been trying to raised peoples' awarness of for a while.

I guess the moral of the tall tale is that if you loan a horse out, make sure that you insure the horse yourself - judging by the morals of some people on here the post could have been very, very real...

Edit - but at least now we have a list of members that we won't be loaning horses to ;)
 
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jemima*askin said:
Loaner has to be in a position to return the horse. Loaner therefore insures horse so that in the event of the loss of the horse, and thus their no longer being able to return it, they can return the value of the horse. It's quite easy! Loaner insures for vets fees because as a loaner they are responsible for vets fees and they want to have any unexpected bills covered, completely different issue.

Owner, according to OP, paid for the £900 saddle which is going back to them as, of course, it should - they paid for it!
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This!
 
Legally - the horse has to be returned - but it is an animal that died of natural causes ... Which it would have done anyway. So you could return the dead horse (ie it's corpse ) at which point legally the money is yours - if you haven't returned the corpse (which would be quite costly to do, ) you owe them all the cash... Or if you really wNt to argue the toss - the cost of the carcass - which is of course it's meat value .
 
So basically, the learning point here is that it all needs sorting out from the beginning of the loan, with a proper contract in place, which the insurance need to have sight of, otherwise you can end up in a right mess.

I've done a quick Google.

Allianz insurance require a written statement from the owner stating that the loaner is at a financial loss from the death before they pay out to a loaner rather than an owner. I've just had a look at NFU s small print too and that says they will only pay out death benefit to the owner. I would imagine other insurance policies are similar.
 
I think she is real, I googled the name and it brings up a twitter account which mentions the horse, has pictures etc from a month or so ago.

I too wonder if the letter was needed by insurance company to authorise the payout - and misconstrued - perhaps the owner didn't realise they were signing their rights to it away, and thought that it was just a means of speeding up the claim? No idea, someone else suggested it and worded it better!
 
I know my insurance has small print in it that says death money only paid to owner; it would appear most others do as well.

So does the insurance company know the horse is on loan? If they believe op owns the horse they would be well within their rights to get any monies paid out to op, as details given at time of taking out policy would be incorrect.

Also if insurance are paying out for death, they generally want to see evidence of market value, and ownership. Ie a recipt. How is op going to supply one of those?

And if it was my horse, and worth a reasonable amount of money (£2k. +) I'd definatly be going to a solicitor and taking advice about getting my money back
 
last year when I applied for a humane death request from Petplan I had to submit proof of purchase and his original vetting-horse was 11, vetted as a 4yo. I do so hate it when I'm told my experience didn't happen..


I had a loan horse last year, owner kept insurance, I paid the premiums to her and we had a contract that detailed what would happen in event of illness, injury and death (it was only to be a 6 month loan). I wouldn't either loan or loan out without insurance-even if I didn't usually insure.

its been an interesting thread though!
 
So shocked by some of the opinions expressed on this thread - is it a reflection of the something for nothing society we are purported to be living in?!

I am so grateful for my loan - I was unable to afford a horse at the time, but could afford the running costs. Essentially I see it as a huge favour. I got to ride (and now keep) my horse of a life time. My loaner did not want to sell as she wanted to ensure the horses future- NOT because she couldn't be bothered to care for it (as has been suggested why people loan and not sell).
I could have sent the horse back it was my choice not too. A horses value my increase or decrease (how many horses of high value have ended up having a career ending injury then been deemed to be worth very little). Regardless of how much a horse is worth you still have to pay the running costs. I've have years of fun without the initial outlay.

The money is the owners.

I sometimes ride other peoples horses - I also have rider only insurance. Not because I have been told to but because I think it's the right thing to do and gives me peace of mind.
Potential loaners please don't be put off. I will be looking for another horse in the future (again probably on loan) and would hate to think people have been put off loaning from this thread. There are still honest and trustworthy people out there!
 
I think all of us must have been googling insurance small print last night. Most seem to want the loan declared, proof of purchase, and the owner is informed of the death and claim. Insurance companies love to wiggle out of paying so in the end they may not pay out.I found only one that paid the claim to the loaner
http://www.seisinsurance.co.uk/assets/pdf/SEIS Policy Document 7306-5.pdf
This is the time of year when loads of horses and ponies are put out on loan, many are family friends that are passed from child to child and go out on loan because there is a gap and are loaned to other children whilst the owners younger child are big enough to ride them. The attitudes of some people on this topic will reduce even further the willingness of people to loan, and in future there will be a clause in my loan agreements that will cover this.
 
Fides said:
This is why as an owner I would always pay the insurance myself when loaning. The owner has no comeback unfortunately :( it is a horrible situation :( the owner is the one that has lost the financial side of the horse but the loaner gets the money :( you legally get to keep the money but morally, I think it is wrong :(
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Bang out of order!
 
Surely, morally if not legally, the loaner is responsible for the health and well being of the horse and should be able to return it in good condition, or pay the full market value of the horse to the owner. The loaner should keep the insurance money and re-pay the owner whatever the horse was worth before it was killed/died. If the insurance money more than covers the value of the horse, they have had a windfall. If it doesn't cover the value of the horse, they should make up the difference.
 
I leased a mare and insured her. If she had died during the period the money would have gone to the owner, I would never even have thought it would come to me.
 
Never in all my days have I heard of (or read of, insured or otherwise) a loaner paying the purchase price of a loan horse back to the owner on it's death for whatever reason. So it's interesting to read these posts saying that owners should get the value of the horse from the loaner. Genuinely didn't know that was expected.

Likewise I've heard of, and read of on here or anywhere else, many broken horses being returned to their owner with never a mention of the person who was in control of the horse a the time of it's injury making up the shortfall in value between healthy horse and broken horse.

Moral of the story for me is, if you loan out your horse, insure it yourself.
 
This whole thing just shows how very very important it is to have a solid agreement in place. The OP states that the owner was quite happy for payment to go to the loaner in the event of the horses death when she took the insurance policy out so surely the owner should stick to that agreement and not change her mind. If owners want to remain in control then all insurance premiums should remain the responsibility of the owner, who should pay the premiums and deal with any claims. When we had a horse on short term loan recently, the owner kept the insurance up to date and would have made any claims were it necessary.
 
My two pence worth - I'm with nfu and you don't get a choice about whether you insure for death on humane grounds or not, it's part and parcel of the insurance package
 
The owner may not insure her current horses as she accepts that they are her responsibility and she alone would have to deal with any finances. In your case its reasonable that the owner would expect you to be able to meet all the financial needs of the horse whilst in your care including compensating her for any loss of use or death. I would pay out half the money as requested and end things on a good note. Bank the rest and start saving towards a new horse or why not looking at loaning from a sanctuary so you won't have to shell out to buy a new horse and you will have proper loan agreement to protect you from situations like this? There are plenty of damn good neddies in need of new homes in rescue centres all over UK.
 
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