Loaning advice needed please

[happyhacking:)]

Two and a half years ago I took on two mares on a loan with view to buy contract. One was almost feral on arrival having been badly handled and was crippled with Laminitis. the other was newly backed and very green. both were very overweight and nervous. I wrote up a loan agreement and in it we fixed prices at which I would buy the horses based on their value at the time of loaning and also put in clauses that allowed me the option of a payment plan if I needed it. I was concerned that being so green and the owner a novice when it came to young horses that I was at the risk of being used. that she might send the mares to me and then take them back as soon as they were going well. So I wrote a clause into the contract that were she to take the horses back that she would pay a % of the increase in value that the horses now were worth. She agreed this. I should add that the horses are a 'rare' breed in this country and have more than held their value despite the recession as there are unique traits to the breed (I cannot say more than this or I run the risk of someone recognising me as we are few in number).
Anyhow the horses came to me and progressed nicely one of them I had begun competing and getting good results. Her training was coming along nicely and the other had some time of to have a foal (with the owners permission and blessing). Then towards the end of the year I suffered a breakdown following the loss of my home and job and was forced to move hundreds of miles back to live with family for awhile. Due to the move it was agreed the horses would temporarily go back to their owner until I could find somewhere suitable for them locally to me.
I now have found somewhere suitable for the horses and am back on track mentally with a much better support system than I had before however the owner (having had the horses with her and found out how fantastic they are now that they are ridable!) has now decided that she does not want me to have one of them back (the one I was competing) and wants me to buy the other at twice the agreed price in the loan contract. She has said that as I voluntarily sent them back that I have no right to expect her to pay the % agreed on them or for any of my time and expertise that have gone into making them the wonderful animals they are. I had expected to have these horses for the rest of their lives and I thought I could trust their owner.
AIBU to feel like I have had my fingers burnt by this woman and any advice on what to do next or should I just chalk it up to experience and move on?

 

[Smurf's Gran]

I think you could consult a solicitor, but the best thing to do would be to move on - the only way you can really be sure you will have a horse forever is to buy it. I know some loans go well, but you see so many threads on here where loans have gone wrong. If you buy you will remove the uncertainty.
Good Luck

 

[bonny]

I would imagine that legally and morally you have nowhere to go with this. You had the horses a long time, did you imagine that you were just going to keep them on loan forever ? Did you try and buy either or both of the horses and you have put yourself in a very weak position regardless by giving them back to the owner. My advice would be to move on and get your own horse, or at best to try and buy the one that you have been offered at a price agreeable to you both.

 

[happyhacking:)]

there was an agreed timescale on which to make a decision about buying the horses which has not yet passed (3years- which was owner suggested as they are her first home bred foals)

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Oh gosh OP, just feel so sorry for you in this............. but unfortunately a "loan" is just that: at the end of the day the horse belongs to someone else and not you, and that can be a very tough call, as you have found out.

It might be worth consulting a good solicitor (or BHS legal helpline if you are a member??) who specialises in equine matters (but be aware they don't come cheap!); as there may be grounds to say that your "contract" was basically you agreeing that you would take the horse(s) to bring on, and then the owner would in effect "pay" you a percentage value of the difference in what they were worth, from the time you took them on, to the date of termination of the loan, yes??? In which case you could try "billing" her in effect, for your time and any expenses such as vet bills etc. But it wouldn't bring the horses back into your domain which is what I presume you want?

If you are in the situation to do so, i.e. have the finances, you could always try making the owner a cash offer???

The feeling of loss that you are experiencing isn't something confined to a loan situation like this where the owner wants the horses back; many grooms/lads get very fond of their charges and find it a heartbreaking wrench when the owner sells the horse on.

 

[twiggy2]

I agree with the owner. she did not 'take' them back, it was your change in circumstances that meant she was put in a position she ended up having the horses back. where is the foal?

 

[happyhacking:)]

it was at the owners request that they went back to her farm. there were three options at the time 1) was the horses remained where they were on full livery overseen by a friend of mine but 200+ miles away from either myself or the owner. 2) the went to a mutual friends who had offered to have them in her herd until things settled down and 3) they went back to the owner. On the day they were due to move to option 2 the owner decided that she wanted them to go back to her farm so the transporter was called off (at my expense) and re arranged to go to her farm about a week later.
the foal is still on his dam at the moment but there is no dispute that I own him and that he will return to me.

 

[twiggy2]

it was at the owners request that they went back to her farm. there were three options at the time 1) was the horses remained where they were on full livery overseen by a friend of mine but 200+ miles away from either myself or the owner. 2) the went to a mutual friends who had offered to have them in her herd until things settled down and 3) they went back to the owner. On the day they were due to move to option 2 the owner decided that she wanted them to go back to her farm so the transporter was called off (at my expense) and re arranged to go to her farm about a week later.
the foal is still on his dam at the moment but there is no dispute that I own him and that he will return to me.

so you have rare breed foal out of a quality mare at cost? I would just stick with that, was it written that the foal is yours or just verbal and not being contested? I would imagine if not in writing she could try to counter claim and make things messy especially if he is in her possession

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

People are horrid when they have what they want.
In spite of your moral and legal contracts, I think you need to get your foal back and accept she has done exactly what you thought you had guarded against.

I would point out that she asked for them back when you had already made alternative arrangements, and therefore you are advised that you did you did not break the contract [subtly suggesting that she did].
A letter headed WITHOUT PREJUDICE "You have taken legal advice and in the interests of harmony you are asking for a fee for to cover only training competing and transport, a fee which is only eg £3,000. However you have totaled your costs and they are nearer eg £10,000,. Obviously legal costs would add to this etc etc should the matter come to court. " ..........
If you can formulate a letter for your solicitor it will cost a lot less than if they have to compose it from scratch, but if you do send a letter from a solicitor, in my experience it just makes them explode, as they are looking for a reason to cut communications.
There is no need to pursue the matter until after you have the foal back, as you are working under duress due to her possession of the foal and the the fact that she has not fulfilled her obligations.

 

[happyhacking:)]

i had written permission to breed from the mare and that resulting foals would be mine. She is in no position to keep the foal as he is of significant linage and is to remain entire at least long enough to see what we have. So yes all paperwork is in my name and ownership details ect. and no she wont dispute it either

 

[twiggy2]

i had written permission to breed from the mare and that resulting foals would be mine. She is in no position to keep the foal as he is of significant linage and is to remain entire at least long enough to see what we have. So yes all paperwork is in my name and ownership details ect. and no she wont dispute it either

at least foal is safely stated as yours then

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I agree with the owner. she did not 'take' them back, it was your change in circumstances that meant she was put in a position she ended up having the horses back. where is the foal?

Nope, the OP made alternative arrangements and as far as we know the owner had no objections, but she changed her mind at the last minute.
Not sure why she has the foal, which must be nearly a yearling by now if in the Northern hemisphere.

 

[happyhacking:)]

he is almost a year now yes although he was a late foal last year. the foal going with them was the obvious solution at the time although in hindsight he would have been better off weaned and gone to my friends along with my other horses.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Mmmm, OP after reading other responses on here, it might just be that you just have to put this one down to experience and concentrate on getting "your" foal back, for now, and worry about the rest later when your lovely foal is back in your possession.

What you don't want to do is act too hastily and then the owner takes their @rse in their hand and insists of keeping the foal. So you might have to sing sweet for the meantime and then when you've got the foal, try legal action against her to pursue your costs/outgoings incurred.

 

[kez81]

I would call her bluff. If you still want the made being offered say no you will only take her at the price agreed upon in the loan agreement, no its buts or maybes. She more than likely doesn't want to keep her if she is offering her for you to buy so stick to your guns. As for the foal if he is over a year it might be a good time to start weaning and bring him home. Maybe look at importing/ purchasing another of this breed to put to him later on if he proves quality enough to keep entire as he matures?

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I would call her bluff. If you still want the made being offered say no you will only take her at the price agreed upon in the loan agreement, no its buts or maybes. She more than likely doesn't want to keep her if she is offering her for you to buy so stick to your guns. As for the foal if he is over a year it might be a good time to start weaning and bring him home. Maybe look at importing/ purchasing another of this breed to put to him later on if he proves quality enough to keep entire as he matures?

I would definitely show no interest in her proposal, if she wants to sell it she will not find it easy, no matter how rare the bloodlines, the people who want such a horse might also be wary of dealing with her if a hint of this emerges, it is a small world.

 

[happyhacking:)]

I have pretty much told her I am not prepared to negotiate at this stage. The foal is going to be moved as soon as possible. She knows she wont be able to sell the mare as she has been written off by one of the big trainers in our sport (not the mares fault I may add but the trainer in my opinion is very narrow minded and has the attitude that if he cannot deal with a horse or its issues then no one else can) Our community is small enough that most of us know each others horses so reputation is everything for us. I have a different approach to training than said trainer and have allowed the mare to come on in her own time and on her schedule rather than mine (trainer likes to turn them out in 4 weeks!)

 

[Firefly9410]

I would be getting your yearling back ASAP. I would not be trusting this person, she has already kicked you when you were down. What if she decides she cannot cope and gelds him? She could not cope with the other two. Or lends him to whoever for breeding and he gets a disease? One of hers came to you with laminitis that does not show good horse care.

Edit: oops sorry did not read whole thread. I see you are moving him. I hope it goes smoothly and she does not try any tricks to keep him.

 

[happyhacking:)]

thanks for all the help and advice. I now have made an offer on one of the mares which is much less than what she wants and have stated in a reasonable and factual matter my reasons for not offering more. I have also said that I am not going to make any further offers and will not increase the amount that I have offered for the mare. That I will simply walk away with my youngster and start actively looking for another horse or saving for a trip abroad to find another to import here. I hope she will be reasonable and do what I think if we are both honest is best for the horse. The mare has had severe laminitis in the past and her farm is prime cattle grazing land. The horses whilst are not native are of native type so it is not remotely a suitable environment for them!