Loaning/ sharing - what happens when the horse is injured.

[05jackd]

Some of you may remember my post a few months ago ago asking about how you work your loan agreements.

I have a competent novice girl who was riding one of my horses. No fee but as much riding as wanted. However she lacked commitment and would often not turn up and certainly wouldn’t come in anything less than ideal weather. Anyway we’ve persevered as I’m a soft touch but last week I noticed as she came back from a ride the horse was lame.

It’s now been nearly 8 days since I noticed the lameness. All indications point to a upper leg injury but vets are booked and he is on box rest till we find out.

However what happens to the loner in this circumstance? She lives 10mins away and doesn’t work but hasn’t been to see him since I said she had to stop riding due to the lameness.

I have another horse she could ride but I’m feeling rather miffed that she’s not bothered to see the injured horse at all and feel disinclined to offer. To be honest the whole experience has put me off loaning- the hassle has been enormous.

What is the norm in this situation? Does the horse just get given back and I say bye to loaners? What happened when/ if my boy comes sound again?

Would you expect them to be helping out?

 

[teddypops]

What does it say in your loan agreement? When I have had horses on loan, I have had 100% responsibility for them, so vets fees etc were on me. I also did all the care as they were living with me. However, the joy of loaning is that yes, you can just hand back the horse whenever or whyever you want (in accordance with the agreement). I think the fact you haven’t seen her should tell you everything you need to know! Hope it’s something minor with your horse.

 

[Polos Mum]

Horses are such injury machines that this is a scenario that probably should have been considered in your loan agreement. I presume you mean sharer as in you are caring for the horse she just rides.

If it's too much hassle then it's a good moment to end the loan and not do it anymore. If that's what you want.

I have personally found charging someone a nominal amount £20 a week for sharing - makes them more inclined to turn up.

With longer term injuries I would expect the sharer to move on - that's the benefit of sharing. For a week off I'd expect them to ask me if I needed a hand muching our - But I would also expect to be disappointed !!

 

[Karran]

I part loan. My ride was off work for about 3 months on box rest. I still went up on "my days" (a 30 mile round trip). And did what was needed of me that day. I was paying for the privilege of mucking out! But if it was my own horse I'd have to go regardless so I suck it up.
I happily admit to being fair weather and not riding in the wet but I always go up on my days to say hello, check every leg is still attached, fill a haynet or do whatever needs doing.

 

[AmyMay]

She sounds like an occasional rider, not a loaner or sharer.

 

[DizzyDoughnut]

When I shared years ago the horse I was sharing was old and sometimes off work, I still went up on my days to do jobs and just brush him, hand walk him etc. I was sharing because I wasn't able to have my own at that time but missed being around them so much, so I was happy just to be there.

 

[splashgirl45]

my loan horses owner said at the beginning, if she goes lame she can come back home and retire so i didnt have a problem. i was responsible for all vets bills,farrier etc .. she went slightly lame once and it i sorted out vet/farrier . and it was an abscess so quite easy..if your loaner hasnt even shown any interest i would let her go...

 

[Trouper]

I think there is a difference between loaning and sharing - I am not sure from your original post into which category yours falls?

To me, someone loaning takes on all the responsibilities and costs of the horse - and that means all the work too. Someone who is just riding is just sharing that part of the horse's routine. If she is making a financial contribution to that, then it seems a bit harsh to continue contributing for something she cannot do.

Whatever the situation, it seems a good opportunity to phase this person out of the horse's life as there seems little commitment there.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I part loan. My ride was off work for about 3 months on box rest. I still went up on "my days" (a 30 mile round trip). And did what was needed of me that day. I was paying for the privilege of mucking out! But if it was my own horse I'd have to go regardless so I suck it up.
I happily admit to being fair weather and not riding in the wet but I always go up on my days to say hello, check every leg is still attached, fill a haynet or do whatever needs doing.

Fair enough if you were happy to do that as up to you but personally I think that's a bit off for someone to take money off you for that length of time in that situation. I also kept going up when my share horse had a couple of weeks out of action, to do his jobs (muck him out, bring him in etc.) but his owner did not charge me as it was saving her a journey to the yard (time and fuel) and the payment was agreed per ride (most weeks I went up three days, paid and rode on two and had a non paid non riding day).

OP from your previous thread you mentioned this person wasn't around when your horse was lame previously and it doesn't sound like things have improved much in terms of general commitment/the set up still isn't working for you so maybe end this arrangement and have a look for someone else with a clear agreement in place from the start. I'm happy to send you the gist of my current share agreement by PM if that would help (I think it's based on a BHS one but for a share instead of a loan).

 

[OrangeAndLemon]

Whenever my horse isn't up to his full, normal workload either through injury or on reduced work due to rehab, I don't charge my sharer. He still comes to visit and can ride as part of the rehab.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Just checked my current written share agreement as I don't have jobs with this share due to livery. It states if horse not fit to be ridden for any reason (e.g. lameness or illness) I will be refunded for any riding days missed. I'd still want to go up and give share horse a groom and a fuss though, or do an in hand walk.

 

[05jackd]

Thanks everyone. I’m never really sure what to class it as. There’s no payment changing hands so I don’t count it as a share but equally it’s not a full loan as I do all of the care as she isn’t reliable. Maybe an occasional rider is more of an accurate description.

The Loan agreement states that I will cover vets fees and he is insured so that is clear.

 

[05jackd]

Fair enough if you were happy to do that as up to you but personally I think that's a bit off for someone to take money off you for that length of time in that situation. I also kept going up when my share horse had a couple of weeks out of action, to do his jobs (muck him out, bring him in etc.) but his owner did not charge me as it was saving her a journey to the yard (time and fuel) and the payment was agreed per ride (most weeks I went up three days, paid and rode on two and had a non paid non riding day).

OP from your previous thread you mentioned this person wasn't around when your horse was lame previously and it doesn't sound like things have improved much in terms of general commitment/the set up still isn't working for you so maybe end this arrangement and have a look for someone else with a clear agreement in place from the start. I'm happy to send you the gist of my current share agreement by PM if that would help (I think it's based on a BHS one but for a share instead of a loan).

You are right for reminding me of this. When he had an abscess she disappeared until he was sound enough to be ridden again.

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

I think you’ve been unlucky really I’ve had some lovely dedicated sharers.

I have a couple of people ride my oldie and I certainly don’t expect them to pay for any treatment nor really have the commitment that I do. They only pay a small amount and only if they ride. However they are both lovely and would absolutely come and see him. In fact he fell over last week hurting his knees and needed a joint flush and one came up especially to see him. The other one who was riding him at the time helped me at dressage on Sunday. Both of them have supported me at various events and sometimes spend the day helping out with yard jobs. They’re both older ladies. A previous sharer still comes occasionally when she’s home but works now for the Met so lives in London and very busy.

When I’ve shared between horses I’ve always helped out nursing any injuries and helping with any rehabbing as I know what it’s like as an owner.

 

[ester]

Would she normally 'do' him on the days she rode? If not is it possible (as a novice) that she just can't work out in her head what she would do if she did visit anyway.

 

[MuddyMonster]

I'd say she was a sharer rather than a loaner.

When I've shared, if it was short term injury then I still helped out with my share as normal.

But, if it if it long term I'm afraid I wouldn't stick ot out - that's one of the benefits to sharing rather than owning.

 

[ihatework]

I’d sack her!
honestly from my experience novice riders/sharers are far more hassle than they are worth - they take longer to supervise and cover for than to just do things yourself!

 

[meleeka]

I’d sack her and find a proper sharer who’ll care for the horse as they would
their own on the agreed days. It doesn’t sound like she deserves a
free ride.

 

[ArklePig]

I'm a sharer. He had about a month off lame in the summer and I still went and did my days. Mucked him out, turned him out, walked in hand as advised by vet etc. My usual jobs of being his sharer, just without the riding. Wouldn't occur to me to do anything else tbh. I know sometimes sharers get a bad rap on here, but at the end of the day you want someone who loves your horse like their own and it doesn't sound like she does.

However, does she do jobs etc? If she doesn't she might feel a bit awkward,like would she be in the way if she was just there, not doing anything? Just worth considering to give her the benefit of the doubt but you said she's generally not the most reliable so maybe it's time to move on.

 

[Lady Jane]

It varies enourmously. I have a horse on full loan. I am totally responsible for him, vets bill etc, absolutely no question. I also ride a friends horse most weekends (sometimes both days). If her horse was lame I would offer to assist with care but she has always refused to let me contribute for anything. I consider her my friend although we met when I was walking someone's dog, she was riding & leading and we got chatting on three occasions. I was having a bad time with lame horses and she asked me if I wanted to ride with her. A very generous lady but no idea why anyone would offer a stranger a ride on their horse-she says she is a good judge of character! Just one of those things that worked out.....Even though I have a horse I can now ride, I still ride with her as I would have done before, but I am slightly less flexible timewise as I obvioulsy want to keep my own horse fit (that means I sometimes can't get to her till 11am instead of 10am).

Years ago I had loaners, the good ones (I only had one I wasn't keen on) always came up regardless of whether the horse could be ridden - he rarerly had a sick day. I would have expected a phone call the next day to see how he was. Unless you need her, I would let her go, she doesn't sound like a good one

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I wouldn’t be happy at all. She hasn’t even been to see him? Isn’t she concerned about him?

I have ridden other people’s horses for them previously and I would have been popping in to check on the horse, and offering to hand walk or skip out etc.

Especially if I was riding when the injury occurred. I know things happen and I’m not suggesting any fault on her part but I would personally feel awful and want to be there for the horse and take some of the weight of box rest off the owner.

 

[Melody Grey]

Going a little against the grain of others here, but is it possible it’s a lack of experience on the sharer’s part? If it’s about riding and there’s no riding happening, perhaps she doesn’t realise you expect other help?

 

[Flicker]

I ride for two people who are stretched for time, to help out. They both approached me, no money changes hands either way and the only ’formal’ part of the arrangement is that I have appropriate insurance and we have set days when I ride. If either horse was lame or not fit for riding, I would not expect to still come up and look at them over the stable door. However, both horses are on part-livery so are cared for regardless. I think if either were on DIY, I would liaise with the owner about whether help was still required on ‘riding’ days even if the horse was out of action as they may have made other plans for that day.

I have also full-loaned, there was a written agreement in place and the horse was considered ‘mine’ to all intents and purposes on sick days and healthy days.

OP it depends on how you want to continue. If the arrangement is helpful, maybe have a word with the rider to formalise the arrangement a bit more. If you’ve lost faith or trust in them I’d be looking for someone else - you probably won’t feel comfortable with the horse being in their care going forward and this may be the time to move them on.

 

[Poingsettia]

Some of you may remember my post a few months ago ago asking about how you work your loan agreements.

I have a competent novice girl who was riding one of my horses. No fee but as much riding as wanted. However she lacked commitment and would often not turn up and certainly wouldn’t come in anything less than ideal weather. Anyway we’ve persevered as I’m a soft touch but last week I noticed as she came back from a ride the horse was lame.

It’s now been nearly 8 days since I noticed the lameness. All indications point to a upper leg injury but vets are booked and he is on box rest till we find out.

However what happens to the loner in this circumstance? She lives 10mins away and doesn’t work but hasn’t been to see him since I said she had to stop riding due to the lameness.

I have another horse she could ride but I’m feeling rather miffed that she’s not bothered to see the injured horse at all and feel disinclined to offer. To be honest the whole experience has put me off loaning- the hassle has been enormous.

What is the norm in this situation? Does the horse just get given back and I say bye to loaners? What happened when/ if my boy comes sound again?

Would you expect them to be helping out?

Have you been in touch with her at all, to see what she is thinking? That might help with your decision, once you hear her side of things.

I had a casual arrangement with a novice rider, to ride my 2nd pony, who was safe as houses. She contributed towards hay when she could. My other horse won’t hack alone, or be left, so I always needed the 2nd horse.
She worked as a carer so had a fixed rota, and I knew which days she was not available. We eventually parted company as her available days became less and less. She knew these were the only days I could ride, but she’d call off last minute, for vague reasons. It was also the only way I could ensure both horses were exercised, so not just about me.
If there ever is a new sharer arrangement, I will be asking for firm commitment in writing.

 

[05jackd]

Going a little against the grain of others here, but is it possible it’s a lack of experience on the sharer’s part? If it’s about riding and there’s no riding happening, perhaps she doesn’t realise you expect other help?

I did wonder about this. But having ridden for the best part of 8 years I would have thought basic care of giving a groom or check over would be second nature.

I don’t want to be mean but I feel that the arrangement means a lot of extra work for me with no benefit and I have noticed a huge decrease in the saintly horses manners which I have sharply had to nip in the bud the past few days. Barging out of the stable and refusing to pick up feet. Nipping at my pockets are not behaviour I encourage.

I think best of I just don’t offer the second horse and hopefully fix my boy up.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

For some, it really is all about the riding. She also might figure you don't need her for anything if she was only riding before (not doing any chores). It's also possible she just doesn't realize she could still see the horse, faff about grooming and whatnot. So I might be inclined to talk to her a bit and see what her feelings are and go from there.

For me I would still be going to see the horse and depending on the diagnosis and plan, I'd stick around. If it's months or rehab, I might not. This is the benefit of not owning. Also might depend on how much I like/connect with the horse.

I've seen it go both ways.

Edit: just read your last post. I might just use this as an occasion to end things then.

 

[ester]

So does she normally do jobs and check over? You haven't clarified that either way.

Re. the doesn't she want to check him/isn't concerned about him etc. I'd know full well that seeing one wouldn't make any difference to their diagnosis or recovery unless req. rehab. So unless asked to by the owner/or having pre-arranged days where I was responsible for the horses care and needs on that day I'm not sure I would be visiting. - Having done non-paid shares, paid shares and been the owner who shared.

Obviously it's entirely up to you what you want to do going forwards.

 

[Odyssey]

I’d sack her!
honestly from my experience novice riders/sharers are far more hassle than they are worth - they take longer to supervise and cover for than to just do things yourself!

I know some people have bad experiences with sharers, but I've shared several horses as a novice rider and been completely reliable and responsible (I've ridden and looked after horses on and off since childhood, but not had regular lessons so haven't progressed as a rider). I've gone up in all weathers including snow to look after the horses, when I've been unwell and exhausted, and when the horses have been lame/off work. I looked after the horses well, and didn't need supervision, even as a child, once I'd learnt the basics. Surely most of it is common sense anyway, and basic horse care isn't difficult.

At the time I didn't realise that I was perhaps the exception as sharers of my riding ability go! I paid to share most of the horses, but even when I didn't, my commitment was exactly the same. I can no longer afford to share due to a change in circumstances, and am also unable to due to deteriorating health, but hope that people will give people like me the chance to share without payment if they don't actually need the contribution. Of course I know that keeping a horse is extremely expensive, and have been very grateful to have had the opportunity to ride and be involved with horses. It's disappointing that bad novice sharers get others a bad name, and potentially deny people the chance to share who would be reliable and committed, and who would get so much out of it, as I did.

 

[Birker2020]

Some of you may remember my post a few months ago ago asking about how you work your loan agreements.

I have a competent novice girl who was riding one of my horses. No fee but as much riding as wanted. However she lacked commitment and would often not turn up and certainly wouldn’t come in anything less than ideal weather. Anyway we’ve persevered as I’m a soft touch but last week I noticed as she came back from a ride the horse was lame.

It’s now been nearly 8 days since I noticed the lameness. All indications point to a upper leg injury but vets are booked and he is on box rest till we find out.

However what happens to the loner in this circumstance? She lives 10mins away and doesn’t work but hasn’t been to see him since I said she had to stop riding due to the lameness.

I have another horse she could ride but I’m feeling rather miffed that she’s not bothered to see the injured horse at all and feel disinclined to offer. To be honest the whole experience has put me off loaning- the hassle has been enormous.

What is the norm in this situation? Does the horse just get given back and I say bye to loaners? What happened when/ if my boy comes sound again?

Would you expect them to be helping out?

I had a horse on loan about 34 years ago and the horse got hit by a car on the roads when I was hacking it. I had done nothing wrong, was right over to the left of the road, riding up a hill on a slight bend and had hi viz on. The driver of the car couldn't see me as I was in his blind spot due to the sun at the top of the hill. I would note the situation now and probably take different action but I was only young and most people would not have realised that they were in a blind spot.

He hit the horse with his wing mirror, I leapt off expecting to see a broken leg or some other injury but the horse was just a bit pottery, he'd been hit on his backside. The driver never stopped. After a day or so he was quite lame and I wasn't able to ride, the vet said, for about 2 months - his spine had done like a concertina type of thing.

I decided to terminate my loan agreement. To be honest I was only about 19 and money was very tight and I wanted to have another loan horse. I did ask about the horse and if he was okay and he was recovering but it was anticipated to be a long haul so decided to terminate the loan agreement (which was only verbal anyway).

In the end I gave up horses for about 8 years as I'd lost the enthusiasm and then had my own horse in 1995.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

So does she normally do jobs and check over? You haven't clarified that either way.

Re. the doesn't she want to check him/isn't concerned about him etc. I'd know full well that seeing one wouldn't make any difference to their diagnosis or recovery unless req. rehab. So unless asked to by the owner/or having pre-arranged days where I was responsible for the horses care and needs on that day I'm not sure I would be visiting. - Having done non-paid shares, paid shares and been the owner who shared.

Obviously it's entirely up to you what you want to do going forwards.

I’d just miss the horse and wonder how it’s doing. I’d be thinking about it being bored on box rest and want to give it a pat.

But maybe I’m just very soppy ?