Loans:- If the worst happens

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*hic*

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If you loan a pony to someone with the following clause from the BHS Loan Agreement:

(8) It is understood by the BORROWER that she is responsible for ensuring that the HORSE is fully insured for veterinary treatment, third party liability, travelling, saddlery and tack, etc at all times for its full value and the liability for payment of the aforesaid insurance lies solely with the BORROWER. If the BORROWER fails to insure the HORSE and its effects the BORROWER assumes full liability for any loss or damage, including 3rd party legal liability.


and the borrower decides not to insure said pony and the pony dies does the borrower need to pay the owner the value of the pony?

Also if it's my pony (which it is) and I have chosen not to insure it (which is of course my own risk) does that make a difference if the borrower decides that she doesn't wish to take up the quote I have obtained to cover death and vets fees and the pony dies? ie would she still need to refund me the value of the pony?
 
Technically under that agreement, it looks as though she does have to. Death insurance does add a forune onto premiums, so I've always avoided it, and would feel mean makinga loaner do it.

If the pony died, and had been properly looked after,a nd treated by the vet etc, I would not push for the money - the pony was loaned out to help you out at a time when you couldn't use it, or when it needed exercising etc.

I had a pony die while out on loan, and wouldn't have dreamed of claiming for it. I even contributed towards the huger vets bills they had had...
 
I just took one back off loan, gave immediate notice given as pony was dreadfully lame & in pain. I saw her 3 days prior & she was sound & fine then, came back in the afternoon & found her sweating buckets in the field & not wanting to move - had been ridden hard 3 hours previously. At rising 27 & not having been ridden more than twice in the previous 2 months, I found it apalling that the usually very sedate pony had been cantered several times as 'she wanted to' and also been allowed to work so hard she looked like she'd done 2 lines drag hunting.

They then refused to pay for vets bill - said it wasn't their fault at all, the severe concussion & bruising to the loins area of the spine was nothing at all to do with being ridden....they disagreed with vet & then also horse back lady.....

One month on & still no money - nor anything from them for the broken fence post done by their horse at the end of November, nor for the damaged kickboards in the stable they used for their horse (rotted as they wouldn't clear mucky old shavings away from them for months & months despite being asked to repeatedly) - nor the final key for the yard gate has been returned....

Short of going to court, or sending a solicitors letter, I'm pissing in the wind for any recompense. Won't be loaning out ever again - and this one was on my property! :(

Good luck in your result OP
 
This is why I maintain the insurance for the pony I loan out! Even though i trust my loaners, it takes all the ambiguity and risk away to have the insurance paid by me....I think it would need to be specified very clearly in the contract that loss of horse was to be included.
 
Honey08 said:
Technically under that agreement, it looks as though she does have to. Death insurance does add a forune onto premiums, so I've always avoided it, and would feel mean makinga loaner do it.

If the pony died, and had been properly looked after,a nd treated by the vet etc, I would not push for the money - the pony was loaned out to help you out at a time when you couldn't use it, or when it needed exercising etc.

I had a pony die while out on loan, and wouldn't have dreamed of claiming for it. I even contributed towards the huger vets bills they had had...
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I don't know where you get the idea that insurance for death is more expensive as it's the vet cover (and LOU if you use that) that pushes the premiums up. I insure mine for £1000 for death by accident, illness or disease and it costs £63 a year; if I wanted vet cover on that I'd be paying more than £250 for the same amount (£1000).

Anyway, when mine are out on loan, I always pay the insurance (I include vet cover for those!) and then expect the loaners to pay me back; there is no way I would let one go that wasn't insured to my satisfaction, far too risky IMO. At least if they're insured then the loaners have no excuse to get the right help when it's needed and I can relax (slightly!) because I know I've done all that I can to cover the horse and myself.

I do agree, that as long as they did everything they could and the vet backs them up that they did, then I wouldn't have the heart to claim from them. If they hadn't taken the necessary action then I'd be after them for recompense, there's no excuse for that. If you gave them the choice to insure the horse themselves without checking that they did or chasing them up to do it, then I feel you don't have any comeback whatever the loan agreement says because you should have made sure your horse and yourselves are covered for situations like these. I'm sorry if that's not what you want to hear.

ETA: from your quote - Also if it's my pony (which it is) and I have chosen not to insure it (which is of course my own risk) does that make a difference if the borrower decides that she doesn't wish to take up the quote I have obtained to cover death and vets fees and the pony dies? ie would she still need to refund me the value of the pony?

I'd be on the loaner's side TBH as you took the risk of not insuring yourself, it was an option you chose, you can't blame her for taking your lead.
 
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If the loaner is paying the premium for the horse I would have thought the loaner would then get the payout on death.. at least can't see the insurance company paying someone else for ponies death other than premium payer? Just to throw a spanner into the works..
 
SusieT said:
If the loaner is paying the premium for the horse I would have thought the loaner would then get the payout on death.. at least can't see the insurance company paying someone else for ponies death other than premium payer? Just to throw a spanner into the works..
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That is exactly what I have been thinking.

However, I suppose to have no outlay initilly for a loan, then £30 or so pounds a month ( depending on the value of the horse) is not to much to pay
 
Just to add - I think the only way to enure your horse is properly insured is to do it yourself (and then charge the loaner afterwards if you want to) as has been suggested above. I have treated fracture lame loan horses whose insurance had been cancelled/run out. If the loaner has no money to diagnose and treat (and horse has previous problems which will complicate recovery) then euthanasia is a realstic option. In one case, had the horse belonged to the loaner they would have pts however the owner didnt want this. The onus was therefore on the owner to take over responsibility for vet treatment if they wanted to give the horse a chance. In a case like that taking one to court would probably be difficult - and not necessarily fruitful.
This sort of situation can also result in the horse unnecessarily suffering - the last thing any owner would want.

(I know I havent been very coherent above but having had experience of tricky loaner/owner /vet situations its not something I ever want to repeat!!) :(
 
SusieT said:
If the loaner is paying the premium for the horse I would have thought the loaner would then get the payout on death.. at least can't see the insurance company paying someone else for ponies death other than premium payer? Just to throw a spanner into the works..
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This is why I still take out and initially pay for the insurance myself, there are no mistakes and if I can't get the money off the loaner I can always take the horse back anyway but at least my horse is covered should anything happen.

Let's face it, it's not only the owner who is having a favour done for them; yes, they are supplying a horse for one reason and another whether they can't keep it themselves and don't want to sell, lost land or something like that;but the loaner is having a horse given to them to do what they wish with, no massive investment needed from them just the normal keep. In those situations I don't think it's too much to ask them to reimburse the owner for the insurance at all; it's their cost if you like for having the horse on loan. It's a darn sight cheaper to pay the insurance for the times something happens and the vet is needed than it is to buy and keep your own with all the associated costs (including insurance).

Agree with Glenruby too about what the owner desires as opposed to what the loaner thinks (usually with vet advice to back it up) should happen AS LONG AS IT'S NOT DOWN TO NEGLIGENCE BY THE LOANER OF COURSE.
 
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Firstly, I'm asking as I'm trying to do the right thing by the pony and potential loaner BEFORE she goes out on loan. That's why I'm looking at modifying the BHS Sample Loan Agreement and wondering what others think of the unmodified clause 8 as quoted in my OP. The "loan" agreement is happening because she has for the past three years been "shared" at my yard under my supervision, care and control and at my expense but the potential loaner (current sharer) wishes to move her off my yard. I have no problem with that but obviously I'm then NOT in control - and weight management and laminitis are an issue and the loaner is still very novicey. She is certainly not doing me a favour - I've paid for the pony for the past nine years - her child has used it for the past three years, the pony has a use to me as a field and travelling companion and driving pony and is a loved member of our family. I'm very much doing the loaner and the owner of the yard she's moving to a favour!

If the loaner is paying the premium for the horse I would have thought the loaner would then get the payout on death.. at least can't see the insurance company paying someone else for ponies death other than premium payer? Just to throw a spanner into the works..
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AFAIK as a loaner if you insure someone's else horse the insurance company SHOULD ask you whether anyone else has a financial interest and you should say then that you don't own the horse and in that case any payment on death would (should) go direct to the owner.

As it stands I have now shown the potential loaner the agreement with that clause in and she has a while to scrutinise it. I've also enclosed a copy of a quote obtained today to insure the pony for about half it's actual value and £5K vet's fees and explained that if she wants to insure then I may well need to take up the quote and she refund me. I've told her that I only insure some of my horses and that this little pony is not currently insured. I've explained that it's a gamble. In the three years she's known the pony the vet has been out once to the tune of a couple of hundred pounds, the insurance premiums would have been around £1K in that time.

If the pony died I know she'd be so devastated that I'd never press her for the money, I suspect the danger is that if something goes wrong she will just return the pony pronto.

Thank you all for your comments!
 
Maesfen - you're right re insurance costs - I think that I was thinking loss of use!

Regarding the insurance policy, we loaned a pony a few years ago, and the insurance co made us write a letter (after we said it was on loan) to them saying that if we claimed for medical costs the money would come to us, if we claimed because the pony died, then the money would go to the owners.

Jemima_too - sorry if I offended you. From your initial post, it sounded different, as though you were trying to work out what you could make!

Knowing the full story, totally understandable. Hope the pony is ok with them if they're novice and there is laminitus in the history - we had our pony out on loan get laminitus because the loaners were novice - wasn't good!
 
Honey08, not offended just worried that people thought I was trying to stiff bereaved loaners!

I've fought to keep this little pony lami-free and her attacks whilst she's been with me have been very traceable to when "helpful" people have come up my track from the road and kindly let her out into the hayfield overnight from her starvation paddock or the other times when she had a grazing muzzle on and was on reasonable grass with the others and the helpful people decided the muzzle was cruel and kept taking it off. When I fastened it so it couldn't be undone they cut it off her.. The potential loaners have a regrettable desire to see my pretty white pony grazing in a field of lush green grass . . . the reality of nearly bare ground is abhorrent to them but sadly a necessity for the pony.
 
TBH, while they might have been good loaners while they've been on your yard, with this particular pony and the attitudes they have to the precautions you have to take for him to stay laminitis free, perhaps it's woth thinking they may not be the people you should be letting him loose with. It will be very hard for them to change their attitudes when they're away from your strict eye. I can understand what a dilemma it is for you, it's certainly not one I'd like so good luck with it.
 
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