Loans...WWYD?

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catwithclaws

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Sorry, this will be long, it's kind of a rant and to ask you guys if there's anything I could/should do to stop anyone else being endangered.

A friend of mine has taken a horse on full loan, advertised as a showjumper ready to go out and win etc, sound and healthy, no vices etc. Was ok to ride if a little sharp when she tried it out, but she is a confident, experienced rider so it didn't worry her too much at the time.

Since she has had the horse (almost a month) it's done nothing but rear when under saddle. On the ground it's fine, when lunging etc. my friend called the owner, who arranged a physio treatment and then told my friend to carry on and ride as normal.

It carried on happening, owner was adamant that it must be my friends riding that was causing it. Several others have tried, people with many many years of experience, instructors, and the horse does exactly the same thing.

Fast forward to 2 nights ago, friend was riding horse in the school, went to dismount and this horse went vertical and flipped itself over. It landed on top of my friend who was lucky not to be killed, she is very sore and bruised but quite understandably has lost her confidence.

She got in touch with the owner to say she doesn't want to keep the horse after whats happened, and that she needs a work up from a vet to try and figure out what's wrong. The owner has said she won't take the horse back without 2 months notice.

The owner has readvertised the very next day as a competition horse ready to go out and win, works beautifully on the flat blah blah blah, saying 'NO NOVICES, BEGINNERS OR TIMEWASTERS!' This makes me very cross as my friend is not by any means a novice, nor a timewaster!

I suppose my question is WWYD? I wouldn't want the horse to be passed on to another unsuspecting loaner and for someone else to get seriously injured or even killed :( but should I just stay out of it? Please be nice!
 
Nothing you can do :(

Send the horse back (according to the contract terms) - might mean keeping a month but don't ride in the interim. Unfortunately you have little say about the horses future if you don't own it.
 
My first thought is deliver it back to the owner.

Contracts aside if owner threatens suggest your friend counter threatens re the fact horse is dangerous.
 
I would give the owner a weeks notice, load it up, deliver it back and walk away letting her shout and kick off behind me. I wouldnt care if the loan agreement stated two months either, she could have been killed!
 
Horse not as advertised so contract doesn't stand, surely? Murmurings of suing for injuries caused might encourage the owner to take it back earlier than the two months?
 
Thanks guys, it was a truly horrendous situation. The horse has been readvertised on Facebook, I know people on the yard want to write all about it on the advert, but I guess that would just make the situation worse :(
 
catwithclaws said:
Thanks guys, it was a truly horrendous situation. The horse has been readvertised on Facebook, I know people on the yard want to write all about it on the advert, but I guess that would just make the situation worse :(
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You can't control what other people write so leave them to it. Your friend was incredibly lucky .. the next person might not be!
 
If the owner insists on two months notice I would invite them to the yard to ride the horse and prove he isn't a danger
 
Personally? Load him/her up and take it back!

Far too dangerous and also she lied on her advert! (i know this isn't the right way to go but seriously????)

Good luck to your friend and I hope she feels better soon!
 
Was anything found when the horse had the physio? Is it insured? I would be telling the owner I wanted her to have it back, and that I didn't feel it was as described. If she got funny I would be threatening to sue.
As the owner of a genuine pony who has been out on loan several times, as soon as your friend had contacted the owner, if she was honest, I'm amazed she wasn't straight in the car to find out what was wrong, I would then be taking horse back ASAP. The fact that she is trying to blame it on your friend sets alarm bells ringing. Surely she saw your friend ride the horse and thought she was capable?
 
I'd certainly not ride the horse again and let the owner know that the horse will be receiving basic care for the notice period of the loan but nothing more (pop it out on grass if she can) - at the end of the loan contract notice period deliver horse back.

Because I am a little grumpy about these things I would also plaster all over facebook/ preloved etc. an advert that simply states "If you are considering loaning a Xhh, X coloured, X year old mare in the X area - please do make sure you try the mare a
number of times, including in a competition situation, before agreeing to the loan"

Don't mention mare or owner by name and don't do any she does this or doesn't do that statements that can be argued with - but hopefully it'll be enough to make any new potential loaners think very carefully about what they are taking on.

One persons rear is another persons 'bunny hop' and it is possible to pull them over backwards - so without seeing her in person impossible to comment on the mare herself but I'd feel very bad if she went out on loan and someone was injured and I had done nothing to warn people.
 
zaminda said:
Was anything found when the horse had the physio? Is it insured? I would be telling the owner I wanted her to have it back, and that I didn't feel it was as described. If she got funny I would be threatening to sue.
As the owner of a genuine pony who has been out on loan several times, as soon as your friend had contacted the owner, if she was honest, I'm amazed she wasn't straight in the car to find out what was wrong, I would then be taking horse back ASAP. The fact that she is trying to blame it on your friend sets alarm bells ringing. Surely she saw your friend ride the horse and thought she was capable?
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Yes, the owner saw my friend ride so clearly thought she was suitable :( nothing of any note found during physio treatment either
 
WelshD said:
If the owner insists on two months notice I would invite them to the yard to ride the horse and prove he isn't a danger
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This...would love to see their face!

Or...stick it in the trailer, box it over to the yard, unload, ramp up...and drive off.

Sounds like your friend was very lucky to only be bruised and battered.
 
WelshD said:
If the owner insists on two months notice I would invite them to the yard to ride the horse and prove he isn't a danger
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This is an excellent suggestion :D I've sold a horse previously that obviously didn't settle in its new home, and slightly unnerved the new owner, I had no problem going and riding him for them several times, and went and taught them, free of charge, until all was good!

I would also get photo's / doctors note of the injuries sustained, and send copies of them with any correspondence.

To be honest, if that was my horse, and I thought the person it was on loan to was causing the problems, I'd have picked it up by now - who would want their horse ruined?

In fairness, it is perfectly possible that a horse in a new environment is behaving out of character, it is also perfectly possible (theoretically) that the rider is pushing the wrong buttons. However, it won't be the first horse loaned out by someone in the hope that some other mug can sort it's problems out, and get hurt in the meantime.
 
Glad to read your friend is ok. If the horse is so dangerous I think she has little option than to ask the owner to please come over and show me that it really is safe to ride. Play on I am an experienced rider but I think that you must show me how you ride this horse? Is there a chance that you could video the horse doing it's dangerous behaviour and show the owner. If the owner says no or makes excuses as others before have said load this horse up and return it. Your friends safety is the upmost importance.
 
I would give the owner one week to accommodate taking back the horse, don't ride him/her and return. One week should be long enough to find a space on a yard and it isn't too long for your friend to continue caring for the horse until its returned.
The risk any owner takes when putting a horse on loan is having to take back a horse at short notice however be fair to the owner, unless they have their own yard then they might need time to find it a stable somewhere.
You or your friend can't be concerned what the owner does with her horse once returned. Your friend no longer wants him/her (quite rightly) so the owner has the right to readvertise anyway she wants. However It's pointless advertising a loan horse as something it isn't otherwise it's just going to be returned every few months. But that's the owners problem not yours.
I hope your friend can move on and find a more suitable loan horse.
 
ihatework said:
Nothing you can do :(

Send the horse back (according to the contract terms) - might mean keeping a month but don't ride in the interim. Unfortunately you have little say about the horses future if you don't own it.
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I wouldn't even respect the notice period since the horse is quite clearly dangerous and has seemingly been misdescribed. If this girl keeps the horse I'm assuming prospective loaners will be coming up to the yard to try the horse out.... I would not be comfortable as the loaner standing by and watching someone else get on the horse whilst it was my responsibility and in my care, not knowing what she knows.

In a nutshell screw the notice period load it up and take it back this weekend.
 
catwithclaws said:
Thanks guys, it was a truly horrendous situation. The horse has been readvertised on Facebook, I know people on the yard want to write all about it on the advert, but I guess that would just make the situation worse :(
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Or your friend could insist she takes the horse back now or you will expose the truth with photos on facebook:rolleyes: bet she will even pay for transport then:rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Norfolk Pie said:
This is an excellent suggestion :D I've sold a horse previously that obviously didn't settle in its new home, and slightly unnerved the new owner, I had no problem going and riding him for them several times, and went and taught them, free of charge, until all was good!

I would also get photo's / doctors note of the injuries sustained, and send copies of them with any correspondence.

To be honest, if that was my horse, and I thought the person it was on loan to was causing the problems, I'd have picked it up by now - who would want their horse ruined?

In fairness, it is perfectly possible that a horse in a new environment is behaving out of character, it is also perfectly possible (theoretically) that the rider is pushing the wrong buttons. However, it won't be the first horse loaned out by someone in the hope that some other mug can sort it's problems out, and get hurt in the meantime.
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Yes, I had the same with a cob, the new owners refused to ride her (even though they had probably loaned her for two months at min beforehand) at a top competition yard with sharp horses no one would get on her... Not quite sure why as she was fine when I went up tacked her up and jumped on, but I still took her back... Wasn't leaving her to a bunch of numpties!
 
The owner really should take the horse back, or, as others have said, if the owner feels that the problem is your friend's riding, perhaps she would like to come and demonstrate how the horse should be ridden.

I could never in good conscience pass on a horse that had this habit, unless the new owner/loaner knew all the facts about the horse. Couldn't live with the guilt if the horse killed or really injured someone.
 
Queenbee said:
If this girl keeps the horse I'm assuming prospective loaners will be coming up to the yard to try the horse out.... I would not be comfortable as the loaner standing by and watching someone else get on the horse whilst it was my responsibility and in my care, not knowing what she knows.
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I would completely refuse to let random people come and try a loan horse that I was returning on my yard - if the owner wants other people to come and try the horse then she needs to come and collect it asap.

If your friend let someone get on and there is a nasty accident I suspect some lawyer could make a case against your friend - and she may well feel quite guilty anyway!!
 
what does agreement say?
Stick to that so if she agreed 2 months then keep it for 2 months but just don't do anything with it.
How can owner advertise horse how if people cant try it?

If horse is not in obvious pain when at grass just leave it for the two months.

Keep on at owner to get horse checked.
Get them to come to yard to see robin action and see if they notice anything.
 
Nail on the head amymay....!

Don't ride it, put in in trailer, drive it to her yard and pop it in a box if she's not there.

It's dangerous, it's not your horse, and not your problem, harsh as that sounds.
 
I personally wouldn't just box the horse up and leave it. The horse is not dangerous when not ridden, so I would give some notice, its polite and its not the horse's fault its got someone who doesn't care.

What is the official notice period? I wouldn't give two months, but a couple of weeks would be fair. Any more flat refusals from the owner and I would say you would be going to see a solicitor as the horse has hurt you..

I wouldn't stop anyone on your yard posting on Facebook, what can the owner do - take the horse off you? They will no doubt block you all straight away. Other possible loaners should be told if possible.
 
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