Long and Low bad for your horse...?

[ester]

THIS IS NOT SCIENCE. Not even close. Taking a video with a hand held camera and writing some gobbledegook on the internet is not science. Scientists have robust hypothesis, they have appropriate methodologies, they have explicit argumentation, they situate their work in light of the work of others and they publish results.

Please do not encourage this rubbish by giving it credence.

Quite I have always found it odd that he calls it 'science in motion' like it adds weight?
But I have little faith in his knowledge of biomechanics, theories, or much of the things he uses as 'evidence' to support them. I have spent some time reading his stuff, and concluded that it was a waste of my time reading much more . That is not to dismiss that he is able to make improvements in horses but that has nothing to do with science and I'd rather he didn't purport it to be something it is not.

 

[Booboos]

Yep, i have no problem with someone who trains horses successfully, or someone who trains riders successfully, but this recent obsession with branding your unique approach, giving it a misleading pseudoscientific name (horsanalities anyone?), pronouncing everyone else to be not just wrong but downright harmful to horses and selling books, videos and demos on the back of it all just has to stop.

 

[Zuzan]

I've just hunted through all my pics, and dug this one out. Not under saddle, but this is what I would consider to be acceptable long and low. I don't really see the point of going much lower than this, as then you are running the risk of the horse falling onto the forehand.

Agree.. lower than this and it brings too much weight forward and blocks the shoulder..

As for Vienna Reins not sure that because the SRS use them is reason to use them.. I don't really understand the science, if there is any, in them.. and really you can achieve the stretch without artificial aids / gadgets whatever you like to call them..

 

[Tnavas]

Correctly done Long and Low is the best way to loosen up and settle your horse

When Long and low is done properly the poll never goes below the level of the withers and the nose no lower than the point of the should. Too low the horse tips onto its forehand and the quality of the exercise is lost.

Interestingly a coach once told me that horses that live out don't need to be worked long and low as they spend most of their days doing just that. However stabled horses need the exercise to loosen up.

We know that stretching is important for warming up muscles.

 

[Tnavas]

Just watched the video - what a load of baloney!

The horse for a start is not even going forward - at no time does it track up. The equipment is too short making it impossible to achieve a correct long and low. I do not like draw reins in any form - with the exception that it may help if you have an over exuberant horse to ride - for me I'd then use a Market Harborough.

I use side reins - fitted to the level the horse is working at - so that it works and seeks a contact.

To be honest I've never seen such poor lunging!

 

[Booboos]

The stretch a horse can achieve in long and low also depends on the level of its training and fitness. A young, unfit horse will fall on the forehand more easily, an advanced, fit horse will find it easier to maintain the shoulders 'up' even when stretching quite low.

 

[Casey76]

Long and low can be detrimental in that people want their horses to work log and low, but in reality they put their horses on the forehand, and never pick them back up again.

Long and low is good for a stretch - as long as the wither remains raised, and the horse is still seeking a contact - but they shouldn't be working in that position for long periods of time.

 

[tristar]

jean luc took a horse that had come out of racing, it had severe problems, it hated people, it is a very big horse, and showed how it is possible to turn a horses life around, how many people on here could do that.

the clip with the dark grey horse is to show how not to lunge, sadly its the kind of thing seen all too often

another clip of him teaching chazot to trot is excellent, he is trying to show a horse how to remodel its trot, i have done this myself and it works.

the best way to warm up a horse is to lunge it with only a lunge rein and whip, allowing it to use its body and put its head where it feels most comfortable, and go straight as well as on circle, shaking out the stiffness and starting the circulation moving to move the blood into the muscles, doing it slowly working up to trot and finishing with a few circles in canter, then get on and trot steadily forward on the outside track concentrating on straightness on the long side and riding corners correctly, coming back to walk and allowing the horse to take the contact forward as it needs to, to stretch its back muscles, then go on to the school movements, i go through this process every time i ride.

 

[ester]

No one is questioning that he has made improvements to horses,

that he seems to want to think his work is scientific is the issue.

 

[tallyho!]

Long and low can be detrimental in that people want their horses to work log and low, but in reality they put their horses on the forehand, and never pick them back up again.

Long and low is good for a stretch - as long as the wither remains raised, and the horse is still seeking a contact - but they shouldn't be working in that position for long periods of time.

You're right. Often people take one thing out of context and it becomes something harmful... long and low is just one stretch. It's momentary, it was supposed to relax the horse, open the TMJ as part of relaxing and suppling the body. So in it's full meaning, you have to be able to do the movement by allowing rotation of the shoulders, fore around the quarters, leg yielding - impossible to do when fixed in position and side reins "may" allow the flexing or opening of the TMJ joint but depends how it's fixed. When in "Vienna Reins" this only allows the up and down movement of the head following only the circumference set by the reins - down and out is not achievable.

 

[tristar]

i think he makes more than improvements, he probably saved chazot from the meatman, and in the process showed what is possible, opening new horizons in how we can show horses what we want them to do, how we can help them and how we can become better rider and trainers.

 

[Tnavas]

i think he makes more than improvements, he probably saved chazot from the meatman, and in the process showed what is possible, opening new horizons in how we can show horses what we want them to do, how we can help them and how we can become better rider and trainers.

But what he is showing is what is wrong with improperly fitted reins and poor lunging. If the video had shown these faults with equipment fitted correctly and the horse going forward and tracking up there could have been some value.

As to saving the horse from the meat man, there would be many on this site who have done just that!

 

[tristar]

he is trying to demonstrate with a horse that is not used to it, the reasons why its wrong and trying to show the effect it has on the horse`s whole physical and mental attitude, i`ve seen people lunging and riding like this many times including professional trainers, in fact worse, and whatever you call it long and low, deep and round, rollkur or stretching or showing the horse the way to the ground, there will be debate about exactly whats going on, and whats right and wrong, or what you are aiming for and if its happening, how it should be happening, which i think is the only way we will get make a decision whether its good or bad or has any true value in training or is damaging to the horse physically and mentally.











not many people would have taken on chazot, please watch the clips.

we know lots have been saved from the meatman or rescued its up to them to post so we can share and praise their efforts too.

 

[Goldenstar]

Anyone who has had correct training knows that working long and low puts the horse on its forehand until it's learnt to more up through its wither .
So the trained horse can work with its head and neck lowered and off its forehand but the young one may be on its its forehand it a question of knowing how and when to use L and L .
However I would not be interested in learning anything from any one who can't even show a horse working Land L when constructing his case .
I alarms me people see this sort of stuff on the Internet and might take it at face value .

 

[paddy555]

i think he makes more than improvements, he probably saved chazot from the meatman, and in the process showed what is possible, opening new horizons in how we can show horses what we want them to do, how we can help them and how we can become better rider and trainers.

Sorry Tristar but I think the problem is that the people on here are the real experts on working horses correctly. Perhaps JLC could learn from here? Many have saved horses from the meatman and I reckon that most of them would have happily ridden Chazot and dealt with the rearing very successfully, most especially the very vertical rears. Why there was nothing to them really!!

as far as I am concerned I don't care if he calls it science of motion or whatever. I have learnt a lot from watching all the videos and reading about his work and his views. I am grateful that he shares all that information and especially for documenting Chazot's progress.. Good to see that at least one other person, ie you, is enjoying it as well.

 

[Booboos]

he is trying to demonstrate with a horse that is not used to it, the reasons why its wrong and trying to show the effect it has on the horse`s whole physical and mental attitude, i`ve seen people lunging and riding like this many times including professional trainers, in fact worse, and whatever you call it long and low, deep and round, rollkur or stretching or showing the horse the way to the ground, there will be debate about exactly whats going on, and whats right and wrong, or what you are aiming for and if its happening, how it should be happening, which i think is the only way we will get make a decision whether its good or bad or has any true value in training or is damaging to the horse physically and mentally.
not many people would have taken on chazot, please watch the clips.
we know lots have been saved from the meatman or rescued its up to them to post so we can share and praise their efforts too.

What does long and low have to do with rolkur?!

No one is saying he didn't retrain the horse well, only that he could have done it without talking rubbish.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

he is trying to demonstrate with a horse that is not used to it, the reasons why its wrong and trying to show the effect it has on the horse`s whole physical and mental attitude, i`ve seen people lunging and riding like this many times including professional trainers, in fact worse, and whatever you call it long and low, deep and round, rollkur or stretching or showing the horse the way to the ground, there will be debate about exactly whats going on, and whats right and wrong, or what you are aiming for and if its happening, how it should be happening, which i think is the only way we will get make a decision whether its good or bad or has any true value in training or is damaging to the horse physically and mentally.

The terms "deep and round/rollkur" don't have the same meaning as the terms "long and low/stretching", you're talking about 2 different things as if they are the same thing.

 

[tallyho!]

Anyone who has had correct training knows that working long and low puts the horse on its forehand until it's learnt to more up through its wither .

It does the opposite when used correctly - not continuously which is how it's used today.

 

[ester]

i think he makes more than improvements, he probably saved chazot from the meatman, and in the process showed what is possible, opening new horizons in how we can show horses what we want them to do, how we can help them and how we can become better rider and trainers.

Sorry I don't understand the concept of more than improvements, and improvement is an improvement I didn't say small improvements did I? As I said before and has been already reiterated no one is disagreeing with anything you have said about his abilites and successes just that to suggest they are under the guise of science is misguided at best but you seem to have ignored that point completely! It is not only what he calls it but his pseudoscience explanations that go along with it.

Long and low does have of course have associated issues as discussed here but it still seems a bit odd to use a video of a horse not in what most would consider a long and low position with head behind the vertical and not moving forwards etc to try and 'prove' that point? Do you not find that a bit odd?