Long reining - who does it? Benefits?

[TarrSteps]

Interesting statement in the article (and ignoring the fact regimes is spelled incorrectly):

"Training regimens for horses are mostly based on negative reinforcement (McLean, 2003)"

Not on my watch... How many school with negative vs. positive reinforcement? Is there a cultural bias? I shall get hold of the reference and have a read...

Not to hijack but I'm curious about this comment. Most horse training is a mix of reinforcement methods but I can't think of one that is completely "positive" in the scientific sense of the word, with the possible exception of clicker training and similar. Punishment has been proven to be largely ineffective but negative reinforcement, along with positive reinforcement, of course, seems to be the general successful approach.

Horses train each other with it, "Come near my food and I'll make a face. Keep coming and I'll threaten you. KEEP coming (you idiot) and I'll kick you. Back off and we don't have a problem."

 

[Jul]

Horses train each other with it, "Come near my food and I'll make a face. Keep coming and I'll threaten you. KEEP coming (you idiot) and I'll kick you. Back off and we don't have a problem."

Really well put example of horse-to-horse training there, BUT I don't think it applies in the same way to ridden/long-lining. That would imply that we wait for them to make a mistake and then correct it. Surely the training method for most people (I think/hope!) is to try to show them what we WANT them to do and then reward it.
Yes of course there are going to be times when riding/working from the ground when they need correcting, but I agree with Greybadger in that the majority of the training is done with positive reinforcement: think of teaching lateral work. We don't ask then say 'no' when they don't do it, rather we ask and then when we get the smallest attempt at stepping across we will praise and then ask again. I know that's oversimplifying but it's just an example.

Re long-reining by the way, I much prefer it to lunging because you can do so much more with it than just going round in circles. Also, when I do put them on a circle with the long-reins, it's much easier to change rein so you can do more frequent changes of direction as well as being able to work in straight lines/laterally. Gets my vote any day

 

[TarrSteps]

Really well put example of horse-to-horse training there, BUT I don't think it applies in the same way to ridden/long-lining. That would imply that we wait for them to make a mistake and then correct it. Surely the training method for most people (I think/hope!) is to try to show them what we WANT them to do and then reward it.
Yes of course there are going to be times when riding/working from the ground when they need correcting, but I agree with Greybadger in that the majority of the training is done with positive reinforcement: think of teaching lateral work. We don't ask then say 'no' when they don't do it, rather we ask and then when we get the smallest attempt at stepping across we will praise and then ask again. I know that's oversimplifying but it's just an example.

Re long-reining by the way, I much prefer it to lunging because you can do so much more with it than just going round in circles. Also, when I do put them on a circle with the long-reins, it's much easier to change rein so you can do more frequent changes of direction as well as being able to work in straight lines/laterally. Gets my vote any day

We're wandering off topic but . . .

How do you ask for lateral work, then? A wholly "positive reinforcement" approach would be to wait until the horse takes a step sideways, then reward it. If you put your leg on then the horse takes a step sideways, then you relax you leg, that's actually negative reinforcement as it's stopping the pressure of your leg that is the real signal the horse has provided the right response. Praising afterwards is positive, true, (although debatable, as horses have to learn what human praise means and that they should seek it) but it's not the reason the horse moved in the first place.

People hate the word "negative" because of the connotations but all it really means is you do something that makes the horse uncomfortable until it gives you the desired response then you stop doing it. Hopefully the negative reinforcement also makes it obvious to the horse which way it should go to make you stop - the least looked at aspect of training, if you ask me. As they say, "Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult." Which is a mixture of both positive and negative reinforcements, all directed to the same end.

 

[Jul]

I totally see where you're coming from but I disagree. Personally I don't think a horse moving away from pressure comes under the 'negative reinforcement' banner, more that it is just responding to a signal. I wouldn't term pressure from the leg on their side as unpleasant enough to warrant it being negative reinforcement.
Just different opinions there I think

 

[TarrSteps]

Now I'm just being pedantic . .

The original point was about the use of the term "negative reinforcement" in the long reining article and the resulting opinion that horses (inferred as horses in the UK ) should not be trained that way. We're not talking negative as in "no" we're talking the theory of operant conditioning, a basis of many training programs. At it's most basic, you pull - however gently - on the right rein, the horse turns right, you stop pulling when the horse has turned enough. You're not hurting the horse (hopefully) or making him upset, you're simply using negative reinforcement.

http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/proj/nru/opcond.html

I do think this is, actually, something worth thinking about if one rides, because it so often gets confused with "punishment", which is not the same thing at all. When that happens people either use the success of negative reinforcement to support the idea of punishment or throw the negative reinforcement baby out with the punishment bath water. In fact all aids are negative reinforcement, however lightly applied.

Positive reinforcement is much trickier with horses because what they usually most want from us is to stop asking questions. Or food. Clicker training is wholly positive, although many trainers who promote it actually recommend using it as part of a larger system, also using negative reinforcement, to target and speed learning.