Long shot - anyone know about chromium?

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For feeding to horses with recurrent Exertional Rhabdomyolysis (RER)? I don't think the condition is well known or understood. I've read that chromium may help to reduce excitability by affecting insulin response (or something!) and that may help horses with RER. Does anyone feed it, as Brewers yeast or other forms? Has it had any effect on your horse?
 
here I go again, you ask about your horse and I tell you about me :lol: I'm a type 1 diabetic, horrible insulin resistance and controlling my diabetes has been a hideous fight for at least the last 7 years. Anyway, About 2 months ago I started taking a supplement for diabetics, thinking it couldn't hurt. Its made a huge difference! Insulin resistance has gone now, and my blood sugar levels are much, much more stable. When I looked into it properly the only difference between my usual multi vit and the diabetic one is chromium.

So anecdotal and based on humans, but chromium HAS impacted massively on me and my insulin response :)
 
Sorry I haven't followed any other posts about your horse, and I can't help much about chromium, but have you completely ruled out both types of EPSM? It's my hot potato at the moment, as I seem to have one with each type :(
 
Hi yes, after 9 months of thinking he had PSSM I finally got a biopsy done. He shows no sign of abnormal polysaccharide but instead is diagnosed with RER. Mild but chronic. And sadly means I don't have high fat or alcar to mess about with so I'm feeling pretty lost. It does fit with his highly strung excitable nature though.

Frankiecob that's really interesting thank you. Does it make you less spooky and excitable?!
 
KatPT said:
Hi yes, after 9 months of thinking he had PSSM I finally got a biopsy done. He shows no sign of abnormal polysaccharide but instead is diagnosed with RER. Mild but chronic. And sadly means I don't have high fat or alcar to mess about with so I'm feeling pretty lost. It does fit with his highly strung excitable nature though.

Frankiecob that's really interesting thank you. Does it make you less spooky and excitable?!
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Oh sod it. Well, if you decide to go for brewer's yeast as the delivery route, I feed 50g of brewer's yeast a day and some of my horses go footie without it.

25kg delivered by Charnwood milling, costs only a few pence a day.

Progressive earth also sell in bulk on ebay in smaller quantities.

I assume you know the ages old theory about potassium/calcium ratio? It may be discredited by now, I'm not sure.


Hope that helps.
 
Don't assume! I will look into it now. I keep reading that some Brewers yeast goes through a debittering process which removes the chromium too, so I'm trying to find out the chromium content of the products I'm seeing, but I can't find any that say how much chromium is in them. I don't know if it's better to just buy chromium from H&B.
 
I use equimns metabalance supplement which is well supplemented with chromium. I am the opposite of you and get them to leave the chromium out for mine (PSSM) As I get it in 20kg bags it is also removed from the other horse's supplements and I have not seen any difference with them either with or without chromium, however they are not RER.

I remember being told not to feed yea sac either because of the chromium. You could possibly buy chromium also from equimins if you explain why you want it. I expect they would sell it they are very helpful in these cases.
 
KatPT said:
Don't assume! I will look into it now. I keep reading that some Brewers yeast goes through a debittering process which removes the chromium too, so I'm trying to find out the chromium content of the products I'm seeing, but I can't find any that say how much chromium is in them. I don't know if it's better to just buy chromium from H&B.
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It's so long ago that I knew about this, I've looked it up and there are two things to look at. Potassium levels, and phosphorus: calcium ratio. Forty years ago it was well known not to feed horses with azoturia, as it was then known, bran because it was too low in calcium due to modern milling methods and to high in phosphorus.

Good luck finding a solution.
 
paddy555 said:
I use equimns metabalance supplement which is well supplemented with chromium. I am the opposite of you and get them to leave the chromium out for mine (PSSM) As I get it in 20kg bags it is also removed from the other horse's supplements and I have not seen any difference with them either with or without chromium, however they are not RER.

I remember being told not to feed yea sac either because of the chromium. You could possibly buy chromium also from equimins if you explain why you want it. I expect they would sell it they are very helpful in these cases.
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Can I ask who told you not to feed chromium and why? I think I have two epsm/pssm horses, both mild and as I've said I feed them a whack of brewer's yeast.

I've not heard of this before, so I googled it and there is some very conflicting stuff out there. In humans with type two diabetes, chromium reduces blood sugars and lipids and seems to be recommended.

Although I can find sites stating not to feed epsm horses chromium, I can't find any that say why, and I'd be really interested to know if you were told what it does that is wrong for epsm horses. For those who don't know, the disease causes insulin sensitivity as well as the main effect of an inability of the muscles to use sugar (polysaccharides) properly.

Sorry to hijack your RER thread, OP.
 
ycbm said:
Can I ask who told you not to feed chromium and why? I think I have two epsm/pssm horses, both mild and as I've said I feed them a whack of brewer's yeast.

I've not heard of this before, so I googled it and there is some very conflicting stuff out there. In humans with type two diabetes, chromium reduces blood sugars and lipids and seems to be recommended.

Although I can find sites stating not to feed epsm horses chromium, I can't find any that say why, and I'd be really interested to know if you were told what it does that is wrong for epsm horses. For those who don't know, the disease causes insulin sensitivity as well as the main effect of an inability of the muscles to use sugar (polysaccharides) properly.

Sorry to hijack your RER thread, OP.
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Because if they are insulin sensitive, chromium increases sensitivity to insulin. Thats why it works in diabetics. Less insulin has more of an effect and helps stabilize blood sugars. At least thats my laymens terms interpretation of it :)
 
ycbm said:
Can I ask who told you not to feed chromium and why? I think I have two epsm/pssm horses, both mild and as I've said I feed them a whack of brewer's yeast.

I've not heard of this before, so I googled it and there is some very conflicting stuff out there. In humans with type two diabetes, chromium reduces blood sugars and lipids and seems to be recommended.

Although I can find sites stating not to feed epsm horses chromium, I can't find any that say why, and I'd be really interested to know if you were told what it does that is wrong for epsm horses. For those who don't know, the disease causes insulin sensitivity as well as the main effect of an inability of the muscles to use sugar (polysaccharides) properly.

Sorry to hijack your RER thread, OP.
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I was told by the FB "pssm forum". I realise there are 2 conflicting views and also that PSSM horses are likely to be IR.

When I first asked for help on there they advised no chromium which meant I removed yea sac (BY if I had been using it) also mycosorb, also chromium in supplement.

i don't think there is a definitive answer, it depends who you want to believe. I went along with their suggestions when I asked for help. They seem to be the most knowledgeable, the info on there is increasing by the day and I follow their diet plan (on their opening page) strictly. It seems to have produced the best results. My horse is not confirmed by biopsy (he would probably be pssm2 if he was) and as I had such results with vit E I just follow the diet.

You could try trawling their files, cannot remember if there is one specifically re chromium or try asking them.
 
Just saw his muscles spasm this morning :( First time I've seen (or perhaps I should say noticed) it before. He got massively stressed in the field as we have a new addition, so I brought him in and saw him start cramping. How the hell do you minimise stress in a horse that actively seeks out monsters?!
 
KatPT said:
Just saw his muscles spasm this morning :( First time I've seen (or perhaps I should say noticed) it before. He got massively stressed in the field as we have a new addition, so I brought him in and saw him start cramping. How the hell do you minimise stress in a horse that actively seeks out monsters?!
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What a nightmare for you to manage. So sorry I can't help!





Thanks for the epsm/pssm stuff everyone, very useful. One of mine has type 1 and is extremely well controlled by alcar, vitamin e and selenium yeast, so much so you'd think he was completely normal, so it looks like brewer's yeast will be all right for him. I like it because it's so good for their digestion. The other is type 2 if he has it, and I think he does because his muscles go hard if he has several days off work and soften up again when he works. I'm waiting to see if alcar works for him too. With this weather stopping me riding that won't take long! I'm off to Google what to look for if an insulin sensitive horse is made more insulin sensitive.
 
Update edit. Looks like only type 1 epsm/pssm have insulin sensitivity. My other boy is a good doer fatty, far more likely to be IR than IS, I think.

Sorry again for the thread hijack, OP, I hope someone comes along soon who can give you the answer you need.
 
That's fine! I'm a bit obsessive about all things muscle myopathy at the moment so I'm happy to divet if it helps people.
 
In case anyone googles this, I have found out gold label Brewers yeast does not have chromium in it. The label doesn't say so I emailed them. Which I should have checked before I bought it!
 
KatPT said:
Just saw his muscles spasm this morning :( First time I've seen (or perhaps I should say noticed) it before. He got massively stressed in the field as we have a new addition, so I brought him in and saw him start cramping. How the hell do you minimise stress in a horse that actively seeks out monsters?!
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can I suggest the first thing to try is a high dose of vit E oil of say 8 to 10,000iu. Personally I would have thought it could well have been far more effective than chromium.
 
He's already on vitamin e although I will be upping the dose (I'm a moron and read the label wrong so he has been getting 3000 instead of 6000iu) and I have no issues adding more. I spoke to the vet yesterday and his blood tests show he is more deficient now than before I started supplementing, despite having more grass too. I have decided to have him scoped for ulcers too. I hate the thought of the process but I think I have to do everything I can to figure all of this out.
 
KatPT said:
He's already on vitamin e although I will be upping the dose (I'm a moron and read the label wrong so he has been getting 3000 instead of 6000iu) and I have no issues adding more. I spoke to the vet yesterday and his blood tests show he is more deficient now than before I started supplementing, despite having more grass too. I have decided to have him scoped for ulcers too. I hate the thought of the process but I think I have to do everything I can to figure all of this out.
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have you considered giving him a month on 8000iu before scoping, you may be pleasantly surprised. 3000iu would have done absolutely nothing to resolve mine. It wouldn't have made any difference. There is of course none in grass at this time of the year so everything you give will have to be supplemented. Equimins oil seems to be one of the more effective makes.
 
I know you've said them plenty of times but can you please remind me of the symptoms you had with your horse?
 
KatPT said:
I know you've said them plenty of times but can you please remind me of the symptoms you had with your horse?
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he collapsed out riding 30/11/14. Went down with the rider after going up a hill, not very fast and shouldn't have happened. He had walked for an hour before so warmed up, perhaps he should have had an exercise blanket on. No grain, He had hay and lived on a track so little grass. He got up and appeared OK. turned him out in the field and found him laying on his side his legs out as in rigormortis. He got up, and later did it again. Complete muscle weakness and spasm. Thought it was AM but clearly not as we progressed. (no sycamores so unlikely and urine normal)
High (but not massive) CK and AST. Vet said rest and short walks. Muscles totally hard over hind quarters. Retested CK and AST had gone down but not fast enough or far enough. Another month retested and not low enough or fast enough. Vet rang around and suggested PSSM. They knew little about it and were clearly not very happy to do a biopsy. He was very touchy around back end, muscles still very hard. Also very spooky out riding at nothing even if you got off he was still spooky when he shouldn't have been.

I researched a lot, found PSSM forum, clearly little vet could do if it was and I found vit E. Found Minnisota"s vit E deficiency myopathy and bells started ringing. Decided to try it plus the rest of the diet but in all honesty he was on most of it anyway.

four days of vit e at 8000iu and he was a different horse. Friendly, calm and happy. He wasn't happy before. Led him in hand daily, bought exercise sheets and blankets and over rugged. That was Feb 2015. Muscles became soft over hind quarters and since going on vit E oil he has not spooked once irrationally. Occasionally at actual things but never as he used to.

Realised my error as hay and winter grass no E and he was not having much in summer. Looking back the chiro did loads with him but it never really lasted. He was a terrible shape, lacking muscle, saddle fitting a nightmare. Having realised my error with him put the rest on E and the results have been amazing. Realised by not understanding track horses can be deficient I had caused a lot of problems. Looking back everything about him was weakness behind and that was muscle problems. Oh, forgot the colic and thoughts it was hind gut ulcers. Those were very real at the time but looking back they were only the symptoms not the cause. Now the cause has been removed (or in his case added) symptoms have gone.
Bit muddled, I'm afraid but hope this gives you some ideas.
 
KatPT said:
I know you've said them plenty of times but can you please remind me of the symptoms you had with your horse?
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I've got a mild one, probably quarter horse variant. He had zero stamina, a ten minute schooling session tired him out. His muscles in his bum felt far too hard. He was desperately anxious and nervy. He looked like an overgrown two year old at four. He would barely trot and totally refused to canter. Last bit fell into place when he had 'colic', stamping, looking back at himself, but had completely normal gut noises. I found false colic as a symptom, put him on 'the diet' and there were immediate changes. I wanted him off oil for the summer, so put him on alcar and with rda selenium and 12000iu vit E you would not know him from a normal slightly spooky horse.

My other is probably type 2, the heavy variant, also very mild. His only symptom is hard muscles if not ridden for a few days, which go soft when ridden. I've just put him on alcar too, (he was already on the vit E and selenium) and the jury is still out whether it is doing anything after six days, but I think so. If it works, then I'll consider that a confirmation.

Research I found recently said that on biopsy, two thirds of horses with Shire, Clydesdale, Percheron and other heavy horse bloodlines have epsm/pssm polysaccharide storage in the muscle to some degree.
 
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How interesting, thank you for writing it all down again for me. To find him completely recumbent must be really scary. That's really fascinating. Is he naturally a hot excitable horse or a quiet chilled one? Other than the irrational spooking had you had any issues working him prior to him tying up? I've really ramped up the vitamin e from last night, vet suggested 6000 as he is quite little but I may go over the top and do 8000 to start with. I will go back to keeping my diary on changes.
 
Unfortunately with the RER it's a defect in calcium action in the cell sarcomere. Vitamin e I'm sure will help a lot with how his body copes but I now know alcar and high fat will have no benefit for him. He has so many issues it's hard to know what to do. Knowing there is a sacroiliac issue that he may have aggravated doesn't help (when it was medicated in spring all his bloods came to normal for the first time in 2 years). It's bizarre because I can tell you the exact day things went wrong with him. One day he was chilled and happy, the next rearing, napping, head shaking, veering between hypersensitive and dull, ear pinning, less cheerful, panic attacks in field and out riding. Nothing had changed in his management apart from a little more grass which may have led to a spike in blood sugar which could have triggered the cell activity. But despite rigorous management after that I still haven't got him back to the horse he was on May 9th.

He has energy to go all day but certainly has had issues with his back end locking up. Since the craziness of this weekend I have noticed muscle twitches, in rein back (usually his strong point) he is hitching his right hind until warmed up, and when I asked for a tiny trot on the long lines to see how he was his hind leg stride length was only about 18 inches and totally stilted. The more I walked him the more he eased out to the point of walking my legs off! And then he gets hyper.
 
I really feel for you, you are having a dreadful time with this disease. Did you get anywhere with looking at whether you might have to much phosphorus in your forage? I think I might go for a forage analysis, just in case something leaps out at you, but maybe you've already done one.

I hope you find a solution soon.
 
Just been through my forage analysis reports and the phosphorus is on the low side if anything. Potassium levels look okay. Calcium is very high and if calculated he would need 8g of MgO to balance out the Ca:Mg ratio but if didn't seem to make any difference (except making my maths brain hurt doing the sums!)
 
every horse is affected differently and looking back in hindsight there were loads of things with mine that were not right but could be put down to something else, sort of. In fact everything was wrong. He was not the horse that I bought. I knew him before I bought him for a long while. He was exactly what I wanted but then he changed. He trotted down a very slight slope loose, swerved to avoid me and landed in a heap. I wondered how on earth he was going to manage with me on his back. Cantering was poor. He was the sweetest horse but I knew he wasn't right when he double barrelled me in the stomach. I thought I was going to spend Christmas in hospital. All I did was touch his hind legs from behind above the hock.

False colic is a good description. Nothing false about the 2k it cost me however and horsehospital were unable to come up with a reason. I thought for a long time I had a structural problem ie the sort the chiro would treat. He did but this was not the cause it was the follow on.

In your case you have a low vit E result by blood test. Many of your problems could relate to that. Personally I would get the levels higher, up to 10000iu. Only then will you be able to separate vit e deficiency problems with what is left. It will be pointless and expensive treating something that will be resolved by the vit E.

Mine have been on this since Feb and I am still getting results. If you have muscle problems due to low vit E I guess you will be giving a high dose for quite a long time.

If I was in your position I would be considering asking them to send the biopsy to Valentine for a second opinion or at least making sure everything had been retained so you could do that if you wanted.

I have found the E works better in 2 doses a day.
 
Oh wow. Paddy555, do you mean that you touched your horse when he wasn't expecting it and he jumped out of his skin and double barreled you? Mine did that to the person I bought him off, so I was careful always to have a hand on him before walking around the back, and he would often jump as if it was a complete shock. He doesn't do that any more since the alcar, either.

What an odd symptom!

Yours is so much worse than mine, I'm very lucky.
 
ycbm said:
Oh wow. Paddy555, do you mean that you touched your horse when he wasn't expecting it and he jumped out of his skin and double barreled you? Mine did that to the person I bought him off, so I was careful always to have a hand on him before walking around the back, and he would often jump as if it was a complete shock. He doesn't do that any more since the alcar, either.

What an odd symptom!

Yours is so much worse than mine, I'm very lucky.
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nope, as I was working my way behind him, my hands on him, him knowing full well where I was and no nasty shocks he did it. He was in a lot of pain to do that. I suppose it was the only way he could point it out. In fact looking back anything that involved touching his back end from behind the saddle backwards.

The biggest difference now is he doesn't. I can do anything massaging type stuff behind and he is happy.
As you will see it took me a long time to put 2 and 2 together. As you are going through this, as I expect Kat is finding, there are so many things that don't make sense then when you look back it is soooo obvious.

I am interested in looking up false colic. Is that your description or what you found it described as?

edited to add:- no I am the lucky one. Without him teaching me all this I would never have learnt.
 
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