Long term lameness, ideas

TheBigIrishGrey

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Anyone tried NO BUTE or ZERO BUTE? Or similar? I’m currently using science supplements Flexability professional which has really helped but my mare still has some lameness. We’ve had all tests done by vet, box rested for months but she became worse from this and other legs became swollen, we tried box rest with hand walks after that but didn’t improve only made it worse and her more stiff (she is much better with more riding) remedial farriery by an AMAZING farrier and a fabulous new physio all who tell me she isn’t in pain and that when she warms up she is absolutely sound and that some horses they treat are just like that especially in winter but I want to try anything I can find to help her. I’ve bought equi streamz magnets to see if they help, I’ve got an arc equine to use regularly to try (when magnets aren’t on as I’m worried they’ll interact and zap her!) and I’m now wondering about what to feed her to help. She’s a 13 (rising 14 in January) Irish draught mare who is my only horse and my world. Xrays and nerve blocks show it’s flat feet and she now has good angles but each time we swap from the heart bar shoes down to the X bars to try and get rid of the bar height she goes worse so we are back in heart bars which is apparently fine for life but I’d like to just see what I can do to help her as she ages and in winter as well. The flat feet angle had put pressure on her navicular bone but wasn’t navicular if that makes sense.
Everyone tells me to keep riding her and that we are doing amazingly. We are both partially sighted (blind in right and partially in left) and she has cancer (melanomas) internally and externally. I’ve been paying with my own money not insurance to get every single thing I can done to help her. Chemo, laser surgery, tooth removed when i found sensitivity clipping her chin, you name it. She has to go back for a filling.
I found her at a riding school and they called her the scary horse, I was about to take my life and decided one thing that would stop me doing it would be to have horses in my life as I had always grown up riding but had been bedbound for a decade due to my disabilities and grown crippling anxiety with it. She was known as the scary horse and she was so unhappy, bolting and spinning you name it. When I rode her it felt like we connected, someone had basically sold her to the riding school after losing confidence with her, falling off on a pub ride. I asked to buy her and the rest is history. I hope I’ve turned her life around, moving her from that place physically and emotionally I pray!
I just want any advice on ways to improve her chances of being more comfortable if possible. I’m looking for a second horse to buy that is similar to her but not ever replace her to take the pressure off her but I will never ever replace her, she is the worlds best unicorn! Literally is the safest horse for me as a para rider, but for now I just want to know anyone’s advice on things that might work to help her feel more comfortable. I’m nervous about Bute because it must do something bad being so strong? And people say she’s not in pain, they say she’d have me off if she was but my anxious OCD mind is telling me if she’s lame at all she is in pain. Anyway, I’d REALLY appreciate some kind advice please. She’s on turmeric already which I know will be a suggestion and spillers happy hoof and as mentioned science supplements Flexability professional as it had the most of everything in it.
She’s doing some lovely work at the moment but I don’t and can’t do tight circles and it’s in a large school 20x60, only ever lame in trot. She did really well under side saddle surprisingly!!! Lunge work brings it out the most. Right foot on left rein which is an odd one!
Sorry for long rant and thank you for any advice. She is like my child, I won’t have children because I won’t pass on my disabilities any risk of that, so she really is all I have. Thank you so very much in advance, any ideas welcomed and WILL be followed up with. I would do anything for her xxx
 

Patterdale

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She sounds lovely and like she has really landed on her feet with you! :)

I might be reading it wrong but has no problem ever been found? And you’ve been told she’s fine and to keep riding by a few different people?

I totally get the strong feeling of wanting to keep them 1000% comfortable at all times, but sometimes when you’re so convinced that there’s ‘something not right,’ you can be searching for, or even feeling or seeing what just isn’t there. I know, I’ve been there myself!

What is she like when you ride? Happy and forward? Evasive and napping?
 

TheMule

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She needs bute or Danilon. These will actually have an anti-inflammatory effect and help with the pain.
Personally I wouldn't be riding a lame horse anyway because yes, lame = pain, but I do understand those who use a daily dose of bute and hack quietly
 

View

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Just throwing it out there - but I do wonder if you have PSSM as part of the issue.

Lots of good advice on PSSM in other threads on here, but I would be supplementing for PSSM to see if that makes a difference.
 

ycbm

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Has an MRI been done on her feet? From what you describe on the lunge, it could be collateral ligament damage, but that can only be seen on MRI.

Has anyone ever suggesting trying to correct her flat feet with a barefoot rehab?
.
 

ester

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If she gets worse if you stop shoeing in heartbars I'd consider taking her shoes off too. The angles might be right but that doesn't mean the internal structures are strong.

I say this having had my own shoe in bar shoes, improved the angles to near perfect in a couple of cycles but still wasn't right. Slow barefoot rehab and he was hunting at 24 on them.

If she's lame she's in pain, how long does it take for her to come sound when warming up and how lame is she to start?
 

SEL

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Right foot on left rein is my mare's issue too - its navicular bone damage on x ray and I suspect soft tissue damage if I went down the MRI route but for various reasons I'm not (finances being just one). Mine does have PSSM so can show up lame on a bad muscle day but her right fore 'offness' seemed to pop up too often to be muscular - hence the xray.

She's in gentle work at the moment on the basis that there is a soft tissue injury in that foot which needs time to heal. She was on danilon but her stomach was struggling (history of ulcers) so has recently been moved onto previcox. That is really helping so I now need to make sure she doesn't feel so good she damages herself again. I tried pretty much every recommended herbal formulation out there to no avail.

Barefoot and a recent change in farrier which has made me nervous but does seem to be working. Boots with pads if we go on hard surfaces.
 

TheBigIrishGrey

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She sounds lovely and like she has really landed on her feet with you! :)

I might be reading it wrong but has no problem ever been found? And you’ve been told she’s fine and to keep riding by a few different people?

I totally get the strong feeling of wanting to keep them 1000% comfortable at all times, but sometimes when you’re so convinced that there’s ‘something not right,’ you can be searching for, or even feeling or seeing what just isn’t there. I know, I’ve been there myself!

What is she like when you ride? Happy and forward? Evasive and napping?
Issue was flat feet but angle is back to normal now just can’t get back down from heart bars. Nerve blocked to fetlock and below and then xrayed to find flat feet. Heart bars helped but not 100%. Vet signed her off with nothing more to be done.
Happy and forward when riding, no napping, just this dodgy foot, no problems, ears forward you wouldn’t know she was lame bar looking at her foot if that makes sense. No other signs of it to be chucking me off or anything which is what is horrible. It would perhaps be easier to know what to do if she was telling me as well?
 

TheBigIrishGrey

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She needs bute or Danilon. These will actually have an anti-inflammatory effect and help with the pain.
Personally I wouldn't be riding a lame horse anyway because yes, lame = pain, but I do understand those who use a daily dose of bute and hack quietly
Happy to try either or but my vet has said and physio that she isn’t in pain? Why would they say that if she was in pain? Not being argumentative? I will definitely ask them about Bute and the other drug mentioned. I had planned to.
 

TheBigIrishGrey

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Has an MRI been done on her feet? From what you describe on the lunge, it could be collateral ligament damage, but that can only be seen on MRI.

Has anyone ever suggesting trying to correct her flat feet with a barefoot rehab?
.
I had asked about bare foot and scoot boots to my farrier when we first started doing the remedial work but not since. He said if this didn’t work there may be other options. It’s something I could ask about again for sure.
No MRI done, there was nothing to look at as it was her flat feet and xrays showed it up. I will talk to vet about an MRI but where would we do this, her hoof where we xray?
 

TheBigIrishGrey

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Right foot on left rein is my mare's issue too - its navicular bone damage on x ray and I suspect soft tissue damage if I went down the MRI route but for various reasons I'm not (finances being just one). Mine does have PSSM so can show up lame on a bad muscle day but her right fore 'offness' seemed to pop up too often to be muscular - hence the xray.

She's in gentle work at the moment on the basis that there is a soft tissue injury in that foot which needs time to heal. She was on danilon but her stomach was struggling (history of ulcers) so has recently been moved onto previcox. That is really helping so I now need to make sure she doesn't feel so good she damages herself again. I tried pretty much every recommended herbal formulation out there to no avail.

Barefoot and a recent change in farrier which has made me nervous but does seem to be working. Boots with pads if we go on hard surfaces.
Thank you so much, how did you go about changing to barefoot? It’s something I’d be happy to try with her as it’s one thing I haven’t. Farrier pending approval of course. I had asked about that and scoot boot type things, she does have a brittle right foot so not sure if suitable but I suppose the scoot boot would help this?
I will also talk to our vet about the drugs you’ve mentioned. She hasn’t had any of them only for surgeries but I obviously haven’t been riding her straight after and while she’s on them so I haven’t been able to test it out. After teeth out and chemo.
Thank you again
 

TheBigIrishGrey

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Having a go at side saddle the other day. Our second lesson. Someone made a really nasty comment about her being lame on the lunge but when I was riding her she was sound. It’s the small circle of the lunge (they had a really small line, I only lunged her for about 2 mins on each side if that some transitions with very little trot.)
I won’t be taking her anywhere or doing anything like that until I can get her feeling more comfortable. The colder weather seems to have made her a bit stiff but she still did some beautiful ridden work. When she works properly from behind (she’s blind so she likes to stick her head up, I’m blind too so I understand!) she really feels sound and lovely!! Just doesn’t extend as much as usual. Some weeks she isn’t lame at all. It’s so weird. I’m going to have a proper talk to my vet and farrier and maybe get them out at the same time.
 

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Red-1

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There are a couple of things that stand out to me.

The first is this notion that she isn't in pain. Sometimes, rarely, there can be a mechanical lameness, but that is few and far between. Further between than people like to think. Mecanically lame horses don't nerve block to the feet. If it is a mechanical issue, it is there without pain. If they nerve block to the feet, it can only be pain that is causing it.

I would never ride a head-nodding lame horse.

The lame when the lame leg is on the outside is often when the lameness is on the inside of the leg. I have had this with a flat footed horse, with a bruise on the inside of the foot, and also with a horse with suspensory damage on the inside of the front leg. When they are turning with the lame leg on the outside, the inside of the outside leg is more weighted.

For flat feet, barefoot is fabulous. Sadly, whereas healthy footed horses can stay in work, less healthy hooves need a lot of effort and time out of formal work. They need diet attending to, their surroundings fine tuned to provide different surfaces, their feet trimming just a shave weekly (IMO), sometimes boots, sometimes padding, then a thorough rehab work schedule, which will be in-hand to start with as your weight will put extra strain on weak and bruised structures.

I have also had one, which I retired, with collateral ligament damage. That is not detectable via X ray, only MRI. The horse in question had already had 3 years on 24/7 field rest, was got fit slowly and properly, did one season with me evening, then went lame. I retired him from eventing, he had medicated feet, time off, barefoot rehab, was sound for a bit of BD, went lame again. It is a nasty injury. His feet looked great, the innards would never be strong. He went to a friend and became a hacking horse when he was able. He had around 3-6 months off each year, the rest of the time some hacking. That lameness was one where I could ride him sound. I could get good scores in dressage and ride him sound. But, he was not really. He didn't complain. But, it was not fair to keep him in work.

Bute or Danilon, they can take the pain away and help them be sound. It can be given medium to long term as long as you know it can damage their innards. To keep one happily ticking over, it is a good enough deal though. It is not to keep them in schooling type work though.

The last point is delicate. I totally understand how important the horse is to you. But, he is just a horse. If it is time for him to take a different path to our plans, then that is his path. He doesn't care what your life was like before you met, horse simply aren't like that. Some people (not saying this is you, just flagging it as a thing to watch for) use their horses to help carry their burdens, But some burdens are too heavy for a horse to carry (metaphorically, not as in your weight). He just wants you to give him a good deal.

If he were mine, I would take him out of work, resign myself to not riding for a year if necessary (but hope to be riding before that). I would ask about having the feet medicated. I would change the diet to a barefoot friendly one. I would arrange turnout on a foot friendly surface, lay some pea gravel somewhere where he can have access every day. Make sure his feet can be dry daily, make sure there is no thrush. Find a farrier or trimmer skilled in helping you to go barefoot. Make sure stable is well bedded with dry bedding. Lay carpet strips, if necessary, between stable and field so he is comfy to get in and out, nowhere to pick up a stone bruise.

Once the shoes are off, I would allow some weeks for the feet to simply relax. Then start to hand walk. On the soft if he is sore, start on roads if not. Road walking is great to strengthen feet. Trim regularly, it is best to get the hoof care professional to source a rasp for you and show you how to gently keep them rounded off. I start with just 100m on the road, increase as the horse becomes stronger. See how you get on, increasing work as you go. I would not ride until the horse is comfy for a good daily walk on the roads, no soreness. I would then start a proper kittening, defo 6-8 weeks in ridden walk only.
 

ycbm

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Excellent advice from Red.

"Flat feet" is not a lameness diagnosis. Plenty of flat footed horses are not lame, though many become so if the flat footedness isn't corrected. And the best way to do that is a barefoot rehab.
.
 
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ester

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I just wanted to say about bute alternatives. I fed boswellia for 2ish? years and believe it made a difference because no one knew I had started it yet several commented on the movement I was getting.
But it is not a total alternative to bute, it doesn't give anywhere near the same effect IME.
 

SEL

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Thank you so much, how did you go about changing to barefoot? It’s something I’d be happy to try with her as it’s one thing I haven’t. Farrier pending approval of course. I had asked about that and scoot boot type things, she does have a brittle right foot so not sure if suitable but I suppose the scoot boot would help this?
I will also talk to our vet about the drugs you’ve mentioned. She hasn’t had any of them only for surgeries but I obviously haven’t been riding her straight after and while she’s on them so I haven’t been able to test it out. After teeth out and chemo.
Thank you again

Mine has always been barefoot but Red's advice above is great if you want to go down that route.

Although mine is on previcox as pain relief it isn't to allow me to ride her as I wish (sadly). The pain she had in her right fore was causing her to twist to compensate and straining the opposite hind suspensory - it's to prevent her doing more damage whilst I see if this is something she can rehab from. I do think Red has made some good points about how we ethically manage horses which aren't 100%.
 

TheBigIrishGrey

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Thanks very much especially Red, reading and will reply in full with lots of questions tomorrow as just done mech horse ride this evening.
just to say quickly not important she’s a she and also I promise you if she needed to be retired I would absolutely do so as I am currently looking for a second horse to take pressure off her as she ages and her cancer get worse (ive been paying for her chemo lately so hard to save up for new horse at same time but putting little bits aside for second horse but always putting Coco first).
will reply properly later but promise you I will never put Coco less than first and especially not for my own needs. I get off her and walk miles if I worry she’s not comfortable for any reason, blindness or otherwise.
 
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