Looking for some help with toilet training...

[Chippers1]

Hello everyone,

I've posted a couple of times about my English Setter puppy and she's mostly been a delight (sharp teeth though!) However we're having a few difficulties with toilet training so I was looking for any tips from all you knowledgeable AAD people

She's so smart and picks up training really quickly, and she enjoys training as well (she does all the basics and a few tricks) and will pretty much always wee if I take her out and say "go for a wee!" However she is still weeing inside, and she gives absolutely no signs she's going to go so I can't head her off before she does it. Just now she was sat in her bed, got up to walk into the kitchen and just squatted, no sniffing, circling or anything like she does outside. She's around 14kg now and gangly so I can't easily pick her up to move her outside when she does squat!

When she does this I don't react, I let her outside, ask if she wants to go and clean up the puddle etc and she gets lots of praise and treats when she does go outside still, and i've gone back to taking her out every half an hour so (and she often doesn't need to go as she can hold it longer!) so I'm not sure what to do. I would've thought we could crack it with how willing she is to learn but it's become a bit of a sticking point. She's 4.5 months old so I would expect an accident here and there, and she can sleep through the night now without going, but it seems to be so regular I just need a bit of guidance. She's my first puppy so I want to do my best by her thank you in advance.

Picture tax:



P.S she's eating better now too, the vet said recently that she was looking a bit on the lean side but I've body condition scored her and would say she's a 4 so i'm not overly concerned, i'd rather she not be fat!

 

[splashgirl45]

Does she wee in the same place or the same room? If so you may need to change the way you clean up. Otherwise it sounds like you are doing the right thing by taking her out regularly. Good luck

 

[Highmileagecob]

It might be worth taking a sample to be checked, just in case there is any cystitis going on. Other than that, it's just a case of getting her outside at every opportunity - not easy when it's raining sideways, I'll grant you! Is she gravitating to the puppy wee spots she used when she was younger? If you used newspaper or absorbent pads to train her, it might be worth going back to them and moving them closer and closer to the door until you are able to get her through the door. Possibly not what you want to hear, with the volume of wee involved now....

 

[splashgirl45]

Just saw this on Facebook and thought of you

 

[Chippers1]

Does she wee in the same place or the same room? If so you may need to change the way you clean up. Otherwise it sounds like you are doing the right thing by taking her out regularly. Good luck

It is in either room and not really in the same place each time. I do clean with an enzyme cleaner but yes I may need to do a better job!

It might be worth taking a sample to be checked, just in case there is any cystitis going on. Other than that, it's just a case of getting her outside at every opportunity - not easy when it's raining sideways, I'll grant you! Is she gravitating to the puppy wee spots she used when she was younger? If you used newspaper or absorbent pads to train her, it might be worth going back to them and moving them closer and closer to the door until you are able to get her through the door. Possibly not what you want to hear, with the volume of wee involved now....

That could be a good shout, I'll speak to the vets. No real spot that she used to wee in, we didn't use newspaper or puppy pads as she just ate them so it was just the taking out all the time and praising going etc.

Ah that's a lovely painting!

 

[Clodagh]

Agree with HMC. It’s an easy first port of call to get a wee check.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Ruling out any health issues, if you're at home all day, I'd be confining her to a smaller area and taking her out every 30 minutes to get the idea in her head.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

You've had good advice already that I can't really add to but just wanted to say a friend was beginning to despair about her 1st dog's toilet training. She is a very clever Lab and didn't have far to go to get outside but she was about 6 months old before it suddenly seemed to click. Stick with it!

 

[Chippers1]

Great thank you, I'll get that sorted with the vet. I'll also try making her space smaller and taking her out more.

That's reassuring to hear Pearlsasinger! She's so clever and has learned everything so quickly so I'm just surprised with how long this appears to be taking! I'll go back to basics and persevere

 

[bonny]

I don’t really understand why you don’t react when she pees indoors ? I get it with a little puppy who is learning but your dog should know it’s not the place to go. If she was mine I wouldn’t be so tolerant and I would shout NO.

 

[Chippers1]

Because she's still only young and it's what all the advice says to do, I can only go off what I read and speak to people about!

 

[Equi]

Assuming everything is okay medically, saying no if you catch her in the action isn’t wrong. Saying no after is useless but if she’s actively squatting and peeing you can say no and redirect. She’s not that young, don’t fall into the trap of never being able to react to undesirable behaviour. Redirect to outside and go back to the usual praise of she finishes outside.

 

[Chippers1]

Thank you, it's hard when all you read is to not react I do redirect her outside each time so we've got that bit down already.

 

[AmyMay]

I don’t really understand why you don’t react when she pees indoors ? I get it with a little puppy who is learning but your dog should know it’s not the place to go. If she was mine I wouldn’t be so tolerant and I would shout NO.

It’s 4.5 months old

Op she is still a young pup. Stick with the 30 mins routine, or maybe a bit longer.

 

[CorvusCorax]

It may be something as simple as what/where she was used to going on when she was with the litter. My friend got a pup from a guy who reared the litter in a big open shed lined with mats, for example, so she naturally thought carpets and mats were where you went to the toilet, so that took a while!!
The litter my young one came from were all seen on CCTV sleeping on the tiles and toileting on the shavings (it was meant to be the other way around ) but there was a clear demarcation line in their living area. sleep here, toilet there. Some breeders don't do this.

Re reaction, dogs typically take 3-5 seconds, no more, to link two previously unrelated stimuli. So a not too heavy 'ah-ah!' and whoosh outside then huge praise for going outside rather than anything too punitive.
It's only 'bad behaviour' if she fully understands what 'bad behaviour' is and I'd be super impressed if she did at her age. I prefer 'unwanted' rather than 'bad'.

 

[Equi]

Thank you, it's hard when all you read is to not react I do redirect her outside each time so we've got that bit down already.

Not reacting has a time and place, when they are highly stimulated for example and jumping around on you..any attention is good attention. It’s about knowing when and how which will only come with experience and trial and error. She’ll get it eventually..you’re doing a good job!

 

[Chippers1]

It may be something as simple as what/where she was used to going on when she was with the litter. My friend got a pup from a guy who reared the litter in a big open shed lined with mats, for example, so she naturally thought carpets and mats were where you went to the toilet, so that took a while!!
The litter my young one came from were all seen on CCTV sleeping on the tiles and toileting on the shavings (it was meant to be the other way around ) but there was a clear demarcation line in their living area. sleep here, toilet there. Some breeders don't do this.

Re reaction, dogs typically take 3-5 seconds, no more, to link two previously unrelated stimuli. So a not too heavy 'ah-ah!' and whoosh outside then huge praise for going outside rather than anything too punitive.
It's only 'bad behaviour' if she fully understands what 'bad behaviour' is and I'd be super impressed if she did at her age. I prefer 'unwanted' rather than 'bad'.

You could be onto something with the litter situation as they hadn't really done any toilet training other than letting them out on to the decking to wee - we have floorboards inside.

She definitely doesn't understand bad behaviour but she does understand an 'ah-ah!' I will start to employ this as well.

Not reacting has a time and place, when they are highly stimulated for example and jumping around on you..any attention is good attention. It’s about knowing when and how which will only come with experience and trial and error. She’ll get it eventually..you’re doing a good job!

Oh yes we get the jumping around, we are used to the not reacting for that. Thank you it's been a huge learning curve, and hard work, but luckily she's very willing to learn and she seems to enjoy it so that helps. I'm starting to see glimpses of the future dog and I think she'll be really lovely. She loves people and other dogs, we're working on not jumping up on everyone (don't get me started on people who say 'oh it's fine, she's just a puppy!' yeah and she'll soon be a big dog!!) and she's doing really well with this, despite the look of longing on her little face to pounce

 

[CorvusCorax]

You could be onto something with the litter situation as they hadn't really done any toilet training other than letting them out on to the decking to wee - we have floorboards inside.

And there you have it! She thinks wood is the place to go.

 

[Chippers1]

I'll keep persevering with letting her out more and being over the top with praise - i'll get her some tastier treats as well so it's more worth her while to go outside. Luckily she loves treats anyway but i'm sure I can find something even more exciting!

 

[skinnydipper]

So a not too heavy 'ah-ah!' and whoosh outside then huge praise for going outside rather than anything too punitive.

^This^

"Woo, outside" encouraging puppy to run to the door. Works with puppies, adult dogs who have never lived in a house and imminent vomiting.

I don’t really understand why you don’t react when she pees indoors ? .... If she was mine I wouldn’t be so tolerant and I would shout NO.

This could lead to a dog who will toilet where she can't be seen.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I'll keep persevering with letting her out more and being over the top with praise - i'll get her some tastier treats as well so it's more worth her while to go outside. Luckily she loves treats anyway but i'm sure I can find something even more exciting!

As well as praise, don't forget the cue word like 'pee pee' or 'go empty' or whatever so she links going outside to toilet with party time. Females are the worst as they just drop and go, I find males much more predictable.

 

[Chippers1]

Yes she will go if I say 'go for a wee!' bit long winded but it made her go the first few times so I've stuck with it

 

[malwhit]

I was getting to the stage when I thought Lola wouldn't ever get housetrained. She would wee indoors even with the door open.

It was only a few weeks ago that I realised she had not done a poo/wee indoors for a few weeks. She is now 9 months old & sleeps all night without waking.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I don’t really understand why you don’t react when she pees indoors ? I get it with a little puppy who is learning but your dog should know it’s not the place to go. If she was mine I wouldn’t be so tolerant and I would shout NO.

I wouldn't shout no at a 4 month old pup but if I saw her start to squat I would say "no, outside" in a voice to encourage her out. Out and in are 2 of the words ours learn early on.
It's no good saying no if you don't see her start to squat, timing is everything.

 

[suebou]

Because she's still only young and it's what all the advice says to do, I can only go off what I read and speak to people about!

I too would be saying NO! and shoving her outside. How is she supposed to twig this isn’t a wee place ? No, I’m not advocating rubbing nose in it or similar nonsense but she is old enough to be discouraged now. You can do it after she’s squatted but it’s likely to be more effective as it happens. At four months she probably should be virtually clean when she’s with someone in the house….not necessarily overnight but certainly daytime….

 

[Clodagh]

I got Scout at 6 months ish and he wasn’t house trained. He was also a nervous wreck. I can’t see shouting ‘no’ at him and hurling him out the door would have gained much more than making him even more scared of everyone. He thought dog beds were the place to go, I posted on here about it as my washing machine was exhausted. He did eventually work it out with no negative connotations.
I also inadvertently created a problem with 2 of my bitches going in the paddock, when he hit puberty, by shouting no at him as he went to pester when they peed. Still, 2 years later, they struggle to go there without encouragement.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I got Scout at 6 months ish and he wasn’t house trained. He was also a nervous wreck. I can’t see shouting ‘no’ at him and hurling him out the door would have gained much more than making him even more scared of everyone. He thought dog beds were the place to go, I posted on here about it as my washing machine was exhausted. He did eventually work it out with no negative connotations.
I also inadvertently created a problem with 2 of my bitches going in the paddock, when he hit puberty, by shouting no at him as he went to pester when they peed. Still, 2 years later, they struggle to go there without encouragement.

When we got the brown one at 5 and a bit months she wasn't reliably clean in the house, some of that was inconsistent training, I think and the upset of changing homes set her back. But she got there in the end.

 

[Books'n'dogs]

I would maybe consider allowing her to see you clean it up. I had two female dogs who I struggled to get house trained (one pee, the other poo), I followed the don't-let-them-see-you-clean-it-up school of thought religiously with both of them but when they eventually saw me clean up after them is when they finally stopped going in the house, some people would probably accuse me of anthropomorphizing but I swear they felt bad when they realized it didn't just magically disappear.

Your girl is incredibly beautiful, I hope you continue to post photos of her. I love all the setter breeds but sadly don't have the lifestyle they would need.

 

[Titchy Pony]

At 4.5 months I wouldn’t worry too much. Mine is 6.5 months and seems (touch wood!) To be reliably clean in the house for the last couple of weeks. It sounds like you are doing all the right things, it can just take time.
Whenever we had a set back with mine, it was time to get stricter with myself, because it was invariably my fault. So back to smaller spaces and let out very regularly. If she wasn't going when out because she was distracted by more interesting stuff like what the horse was eating, then out on the lead until she'd been before letting her off for bit. I also blocked off the areas she was going the most often and only let her in there if I was sure she had just been.
I didn't clean up with her around mainly because she would run off with the poo bags or the kitchen roll or step right in it.

For anyone wanting to know why shouting at your dog for doing something that is natural to it isn't a great idea, check out Jean Donaldson's The Culture Clash.

As an aside, my sister's ex shouted at her adult dog once when she had an excitement wee when he got home. The poor dog started peeing in terror whenever someone came home after that and it took a long time to get her over it.

 

[suebou]

I wasn’t suggesting shouting/scaring the dog….. it is perfectly acceptable to say ‘No’ in a firm tone without bullying or frightening a dog….it also isn’t natural for a dog to wee in its bed, therefore if ‘ inside’ the home is a big bed/ safe space, it’s reasonable to encourage cleanliness there.
I believe each dog should be treated in accordance with its personality/nature/ background but if you don’t make it clear what is and isn’t the right thing, how will it know?