Looking for suggestions for backup stopping power for a strong cob

feesh

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I'm looking for suggestions for tack to use with a cob type (15hh, probably Canadian x draft) who goes quite well in a lozenge baucher 99% of the time, but who is very herdbound, and will take off back to the barn when he's overwhelmed - not a panicked bolt, but sudden, fast, and strong (I think it's called tanking off over there?). It's his go-to evasive behaviour when he wants to escape a situation on the ground, too, and he knows how to set his neck and catch you unawares. I can do a one-rein stop, but not necessarily in time to avoid a high-speed crossing of an area that often has (slow) people in it.

I'd really like to keep his day-to-day setup as gentle as possible, because he's obviously had a pretty unpleasant past, and has been pretty convinced that human requests will = pain. I've had a huge amount of success with a gentle/consent-based/R+ type approach, and things that are genuinely unpleasant usually result in a setback.

Things I'm considering:

Kineton or Worcester/bit lifter - Kineton would be hard to source, but Worcester I could improvise with a flash strap to try it out. He may already be familiar with this as it's apparently often used in driving? Not sure how successfully it can be adjusted to only come into play if I'm pulling hard on the reins?

German martingale ("Market Harborough," I think?) - would allow him to pull partially against himself (although he doesn't particularly throw his head up/out, just sets his neck in place and GOES)

Standing martingale - I doubt I'd be able to adjust it to be useful without impinging on his beautiful long & low stretch at a relaxed walk. And he's not otherwise fussy with his head.

Kimblewick - possibly a good option? I worry that I don't have the skill to be very gentle with it day-to-day, although it would probably do for stopping him.

Pelham - seems like it would probably be the best solution, except that I have no experience with two reins, and roundings just seem like a Kimblewick with extra steps?

Locking mouthpiece - seems like a possibly good option? Have only just heard about them. They also seem to only be available from $$ manufacturers?

Obviously more training is the ultimate solution, and we're making great progress, but I'd like some backup power to use while we're working on it! Especially since both times it's happened (in the 8+ months I've been working with him), it's been the result of trigger stacking where I didn't know about one of the major triggers until afterwards. His behaviour right before he takes off is almost identical to his behaviour when he's "stressed, but coping well enough that I have time to bring him back to his literal &/or metaphorical comfort zone." And we will, hopefully, eventually manage to hack further than just around the farm buildings (maybe even across a whole field!), and I won't have the option of bringing him back to his literal safe place to calm down.

Feedback on what I should try first? Comments on any misapprehensions I have about how stuff works? Or suggestions of things I haven't considered?
 

meleeka

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I used a universal bit with two reins. I rode with the bottom rein knotted and sitting on his neck so didn't have to ride with two reins, then used to just pick it up if needed.
 
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SEL

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Pelham with two reins on my draft who would decide he was going home / to the hay barn / field with grass and forget he had a rider on top.

I rarely needed to use the curb - a gentle wiggle would remind him.
 

blitznbobs

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I have used a Cheltenham gag with success on horses like this, with 2 reins.

That way, when everything is going well, it is a plain snaffle with whatever mouthpiece is best for schooling. Only when the horse tanks do you use the gag rein to bring them up sharp.
I really like a Cheltenham gag in this situation because it is essentially a sbaffle but it has the gag rein to say ‘No’ when it is required but for this to work as Red says it has to be with 2 reins
 

ycbm

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Try anything you can put two reins on where the lower one will give you a lever action, basically. A pelham worked well on mine that would decide to take me home if he wanted to, but he needed a curb strap and some don't. Some bits will take a curb strap, some won't.
.
 

maya2008

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As above, something with two reins. What will work, will depend on what he likes. Some horses can’t stand unjointed mouthpieces or curb chains so a Pelham would be out, some run through a Dutch gag, or put their head up not down, so a Cheltenham isn’t as effective.
 

Red-1

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As above, something with two reins. What will work, will depend on what he likes. Some horses can’t stand unjointed mouthpieces or curb chains so a Pelham would be out, some run through a Dutch gag, or put their head up not down, so a Cheltenham isn’t as effective.
OP says he doesn't particularly put his head up or out, just sets it in place.

You can get pelhams with jointed or double jointed, or Waterford mouthpieces, so a Pelham wouldn't be 'out' because of a straight mouthpiece. In this case of a strong minded cob who tanks with their head in place, I would rather a Cheltenham Gag to a pelham, as I find that one who learns to tuck their head to their chest and tank is more of a menace than one who lifts.
 

Pearlsacarolsinger

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I used a NS Universal on my Westphalian Kaltblut, with 2 reins and a loose fitting curb strap. I rode on the snaffle rein most of the time but didn't drop the curb rein.
 

feesh

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Sigh. Thanks everyone for the quick consensus! I was afraid that the answer would be two reins! It did seem the most likely solution, from my research so far. In theory I'm always up for learning new skills, but so much of our success so far has been the result of paying minute attention to his reactions (and feelings!), and I don't love the extra distraction. I think I'm also a bit worried that in an emergency I won't have the muscle memory to go for the curb rein, especially since he does this so rarely - but I suppose I won't develop it without practice, so.

I do think I'll start with a pelham, as the support of a half/full cheek is currently very useful for him. I've seen a few with a similar mouthpiece to what he currently has, so that seems like a good place to start.

Am I right that Kineton/Worcester/Market Harborough would have some effect, but not separate gentle/firm as effectively as two reins?
 

Jambarissa

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Well, you're not wrong that it'd be best to stop the behaviour before it starts.

My new one has the same idea but fortunately he is a bad liar and I can see it coming several steps before it's out of control. His attention switches, steps shorten or his shoulder starts to move over, he even holds his breath while he's thinking.

As soon as this happens I slow (so covering less ground with each step and he can't just swing round) and either start small circles or ask him for something more interesting like stepping over a nearby pole or I'd do lateral work if he was better schooled.

Mine are clicker trained so as soon as I have his attention I reward with a click and treat and he forgets what he had planned.

If you're going to have 2 reins make the bottom one really thin, it's easier to hold or knot.
 

saddlesore

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Could you fasten your second pair of reins through a monkey strap on the pommel? You could even do a small knot depending on how long your reins are. This should allow you to ‘ignore’ the second rein as it will be securely out of the way when you’re hacking out, but quick to grab if needed. Big pats and a treat when he stops. Cobs really thrive on praise so praise each time and it’ll help his confidence that he’s doing the right thing in sticking with you and not running to his ‘safe place’
 

feesh

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Well, you're not wrong that it'd be best to stop the behaviour before it starts.

My new one has the same idea but fortunately he is a bad liar and I can see it coming several steps before it's out of control. His attention switches, steps shorten or his shoulder starts to move over, he even holds his breath while he's thinking.

As soon as this happens I slow (so covering less ground with each step and he can't just swing round) and either start small circles or ask him for something more interesting like stepping over a nearby pole or I'd do lateral work if he was better schooled.

Mine are clicker trained so as soon as I have his attention I reward with a click and treat and he forgets what he had planned.

If you're going to have 2 reins make the bottom one really thin, it's easier to hold or knot.
Alas, it is already a very well-established behaviour - as I said it's his go-to evasion on the ground, and I strongly suspect he used to do it in previous homes under saddle and in harness. He's clearly had a less-than-ideal life, and most of the work I've been doing has been proving to him that I won't take him out of his comfort zone; we're working on expanding the comfort zone, instead. I have never worked with a cleverer or more distrustful horse.

I'm doing more or less the same as you, except mine is an excellent liar, unfortunately. I'm getting much better at reading him, and he's getting less shut down so it's easier to see, but it's slow progress. He's also only ever exploded when there was an extra stressor I didn't know about. Usually, I know how he's feeling about stuff, and offer distraction/reassurance/treat as appropriate. He never forgets what he has planned, but he does usually choose to give me his attention and do what I'm asking instead. Unfortunately, if he's stressed enough, he's perfectly capable of paying attention to me/poles/circles/lateral/treats AND paying attention to his stress/stressor at the same time - which usually means we're too far outside his comfort zone, so I bring him back to safety, to prove that I have heard his concerns. Which is sort of the opposite of the usual advice, but it's been working very well.

(And yes, I actually picked up a pair of very thin reins at a tack sale last weekend!)
 

feesh

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Could you fasten your second pair of reins through a monkey strap on the pommel? You could even do a small knot depending on how long your reins are. This should allow you to ‘ignore’ the second rein as it will be securely out of the way when you’re hacking out, but quick to grab if needed. Big pats and a treat when he stops. Cobs really thrive on praise so praise each time and it’ll help his confidence that he’s doing the right thing in sticking with you and not running to his ‘safe place’
I will probably do that or a knot - I've picked up a pair of nice thin reins that should be easy to handle. (Although I do think I'll also try to learn to ride with two.)

And yeah, he's getting tons of praise and treats and so on. I think I spent a good 50% of our ride yesterday telling him how brave he was! It's done wonders for him, and he's SO much braver now than when we started. The taking off happens when he's over threshold, and no longer feels he can trust me - basically hits the point of "Crap, no one else is going to look out for me; I guess I have to solve this problem MYSELF!"
 

ILuvCowparsely

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I'm looking for suggestions for tack to use with a cob type (15hh, probably Canadian x draft) who goes quite well in a lozenge baucher 99% of the time, but who is very herdbound, and will take off back to the barn when he's overwhelmed - not a panicked bolt, but sudden, fast, and strong (I think it's called tanking off over there?). It's his go-to evasive behaviour when he wants to escape a situation on the ground, too, and he knows how to set his neck and catch you unawares. I can do a one-rein stop, but not necessarily in time to avoid a high-speed crossing of an area that often has (slow) people in it.

I'd really like to keep his day-to-day setup as gentle as possible, because he's obviously had a pretty unpleasant past, and has been pretty convinced that human requests will = pain. I've had a huge amount of success with a gentle/consent-based/R+ type approach, and things that are genuinely unpleasant usually result in a setback.

Things I'm considering:

Kineton or Worcester/bit lifter - Kineton would be hard to source, but Worcester I could improvise with a flash strap to try it out. He may already be familiar with this as it's apparently often used in driving? Not sure how successfully it can be adjusted to only come into play if I'm pulling hard on the reins?

German martingale ("Market Harborough," I think?) - would allow him to pull partially against himself (although he doesn't particularly throw his head up/out, just sets his neck in place and GOES)

Standing martingale - I doubt I'd be able to adjust it to be useful without impinging on his beautiful long & low stretch at a relaxed walk. And he's not otherwise fussy with his head.

Kimblewick - possibly a good option? I worry that I don't have the skill to be very gentle with it day-to-day, although it would probably do for stopping him.

Pelham - seems like it would probably be the best solution, except that I have no experience with two reins, and roundings just seem like a Kimblewick with extra steps?

Locking mouthpiece - seems like a possibly good option? Have only just heard about them. They also seem to only be available from $$ manufacturers?

Obviously more training is the ultimate solution, and we're making great progress, but I'd like some backup power to use while we're working on it! Especially since both times it's happened (in the 8+ months I've been working with him), it's been the result of trigger stacking where I didn't know about one of the major triggers until afterwards. His behaviour right before he takes off is almost identical to his behaviour when he's "stressed, but coping well enough that I have time to bring him back to his literal &/or metaphorical comfort zone." And we will, hopefully, eventually manage to hack further than just around the farm buildings (maybe even across a whole field!), and I won't have the option of bringing him back to his literal safe place to calm down.

Feedback on what I should try first? Comments on any misapprehensions I have about how stuff works? Or suggestions of things I haven't considered?
What about a combination hackamore, you have the kimblewick mouth piece and pressure on the nose too. I have this really happy too https://www.horsebitbank.com/products/beris-tandem-us-with-tongue-port
 

feesh

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blitznbobs

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I was looking at a bunch of those and considering them. They seem like they're more like bitting up, though, rather than offering two-stage action? Unless I am misunderstanding how they work.
Definitely bitting up… all that metal above the rings leads to massive leverage.
 
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