Loose jumping SHBS Addington

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magic104

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www.jc-countryside.co.uk
Please excuse my ignorance, but at what level are these horses being judge for, ie RC, or Grade A/International? It was I believe the first time the SHBS has done this, & Ian Stark was meant to be one of the judges, but did not attend. I am just interested as my colt may be there in 2yrs time, who knows.

Hopefully someone from here was there today. All I would say is the winner was consistant & took it all in his stride. Not sure though what level he is likely to attain in either eventing or SJ. I am NOT critising I dont have enough experience to do that, but I do think if Ian Stark could not make it that they had got another known rider of competition horses. I am not saying the judges did not have the experience, not at all, but lets have someone that is known outside the ring. I did enjoy my day & I was pleased to see horses more like my guys at home. Again this is not a criticism this is me wanting to understand what is being looked for & at what level. I am off to work now, but would be really interested in your comments which I will read this evening. Hope all who went had a good day.
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Well I must say that I was completely bemused by it <sigh>. The judges seemd tio follow the old SHBGB 'can't look at the programme to see the pedigree' bit, and they didn't announce any scores either as they went along or at the end (there is a rumour that the very weird result at the end was as a result of an adding-up mistake but I think that was just a clutching at straws solution to an almost unanswrable question as to how they reached the result they did). I agree with Magic104 that the winner was consistent, but he had the sort of consistency needed to win a county level working hunter class not a serious showjumping or eventing competiition, and he certainly did not have the sort of scope and athleticism that the winner of such a class normally requires.

IMHO it was a class designed for hunters destined to jump fences across a not too demanding country rather than one designed to find a true equine athlete. Sadly, I feel that sometimes the 'Sports' bit of SHBGB can still be very superifical at times.

But congrats to Zulu on her third in a very hotly contested (and well judged by J L-C :-)) 2 year old sports horse filly class :-)
 
Well have to say I am a bit disapointed at the response. How are people meant to learn, when no explaination is available. Where is the training ground for the replacement judges, where is the consistancy with the judging? Did the SHBS not think it would be helpful for the judges to explaine how they came to their marks? I will stick my kneck out & say I would like to know how the judges came to their decesion over the horse that was placed 3rd. I would like to know because from what I saw it was as far removed from what I thought people wanted to breed. I did not think much of the way it was put together, the way it moved or its technique over a fence, therefore it would have been useful to have understood what I was getting wrong. I also still believe that someone of some creditionals should have replaced Ian Stark, no offence, but it is the top riders who are the ones riding these top competition horses. Graham Fletcher went over to Ireland, perhaps they could have got local rider Tim Stockdale!
 
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I will stick my kneck out & say I would like to know how the judges came to their decesion over the horse that was placed 3rd. I would like to know because from what I saw it was as far removed from what I thought people wanted to breed. I did not think much of the way it was put together, the way it moved or its technique over a fence

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I gather you did not like it much then <ROFL>! I have to say I have been juding loose-jumping (for proper sports horses and ponies!) for well over 10 years (although usualy as as part of a grading or assessment procedure) and in doing so I have judged alongside -- and listened at the feet of -- people I regard as real authorities who have bred and produced top international horses across three continents, but according to SHBGB I got it almost 100% wrong. Whist I know (and how from some of the posts on this forum) that things often look vastly different from the stands, it is hard to see why a horse with no natural shape, who overjumps his forelags and still manages to land steeply and not pick up (let alone rush his fences) can be marked so highly or how a horse by a For Pleasue son out of (I think) a Contender mare showing natural talent can be put at the bottom of the line. But then again, what do I know about what is required of a gentleman's conveyance around a low county level working hunter course?
 
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I dont suppose you have the results of the sporthorse in hand classes do you Ciss? I would have loved to have seen them but annoyingly was at work all day

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Sorry, no was too busy chatting and tryiong to predict what J L-C would pull in next in her line ups to catch most of them, especially as it seemed that the non-catalogued late entries did quite well, the announcer although loud was not that clear to me and the yearling classes especially clashed with the loose jumping :-(. However, I will e-mail Catherine Burdock at SHBGB and ask her if she can send the numbers of the winning and placed horses to me, but as she is pretty busy for the next couple of days don't expect a full listing until ealry next week. HTH
 
The results will eventually be on the SHB(GB) website, I find it very frustrating that in some cases the same horses are winning/placed hunters AND sport horses, to my uneducated mind they should be different in type.
 
Agree, though I can not imagine some of these show hunters actually making it as hunters in the field. But then what do any of us know, or will know when it is kept so well hidden! I think people who pay entry fees have a right to know how their horses are judged. This is a way of learning, but it all seems a closed shop. It also seems that no matter how many times judges are informed it is not good to show fat horses they still place them. People are showing what they feel is warrented because this is what they have seen being placed. I am not saying this is the case at Addington, but it most certainly does happen. What education/experiance have the judges had to say judge Sports horses/ponies. Where is the consistancy? It sounds like I am knocking judges, & I dont mean to. I can not be the only person though that goes to shows & hears time after time people at the ring side scratching their heads wondering why on earth!
 
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The results will eventually be on the SHB(GB) website, I find it very frustrating that in some cases the same horses are winning/placed hunters AND sport horses, to my uneducated mind they should be different in type.

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Rather more educated than most of their listed judges I would think as you can see the difference and they can't!
 
But just because a horse is destined for the top as a competition horse it doesnt mean that it shouldnt have show horse perfect conformation.
Shutterfly who is considered to be the best showjumper in the world has the most stunning show hunter conformation.
 
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But just because a horse is destined for the top as a competition horse it doesnt mean that it shouldnt have show horse perfect conformation.
Shutterfly who is considered to be the best showjumper in the world has the most stunning show hunter conformation.

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But not thank goodness show hunter movement (or lack of it) or show hunter fatness. If she had either of those things she would be dead in the wtaer in an English show ring (especially under saddle) as the majority of the judges would not be able to ride the movement or the jump and would penalise her accordingly.

BTW, are you in the USA? The requirements of show hunters are rather different there and one of the best looking warmbloods I ever saw was a top performer in that field. However, even he had been'trained' to jump with a low bascule and a smooth way of going unlikely to be of much use in a GP jumping or dressage arena but as I did not see him as a young horse I have no idea what his natural talent/capacity for sport would have been.

Actually the hunter/jumper market in the USA has been a god-send to the shrewder Euopean breeders who have realised that even their UK clients now know the difference between a moderate horse every well produced to show to its absolute best and a raw horse with lots of talent. They are finding it increasingly hard to sell the former to the Brit clients who used to buy them but they are ideal as hunter.jumpers in the USA and the prices for such animals (especially at the Verden Auctions) shows how high the dollar demand is for them.
 
No England i just happen to like horses with very correct conformation.
I aim to breed very well put together eventers with good active correct movement and good temperaments which if they didnt make the grade could go on and have a useful life as show horses or anything really.
Its just that my first two broodmares which i competed succesfully showjumping as an untrained amateur (Grade B which is my limit) also won at National level under saddle and in hand as Hunters and riding horses before retiring to stud sound in there teens.
They were only 15.1 and 15.2 one full TB one 1/2 TB but both mares went on to be head stud book graded.
I wasnt from a wealthy family my mares cost £350 and £500 at two and three and had to be jack of all trades .
If we went to a show they had to win enough to go the next week and as i worked full time they often didnt get much work between shows either so temperamnt and toughness was paramount .
So often they would jump a suitable jumping class (foxhunter whatever there was) and do a working hunter or such like as well.
Primarily we breed back to our two TB stallions as that is what i like and i find the temperaments suit .
We have shown with great success over the years with both mares and youngsters and i can honestly say we have never had to have them fat to win.
Perphaps if the horse below is good enough they dont have to be fat.
The loose jumping thing btw i think is a total waste of time did it a few years ago at Malvern and found that the ones that won were the ones that had done the most prep work.
Dont know if the set up at Addington was any better but the pen they used to use at Malvern would actively discourage anything with any amount of scope as the surface moved.
Once was enough for my big moving big jumping horse he didnt even want to go forward after having got top marks for conformation and movement.
 
sallyf I wish you could have seen the confirmation for the horse placed 3rd. I have seen your horses, so know full well that you would have had some thoughts on it. I was talking to someone today about their new horse. They had spent 3mths looking for a dressage horse without success. The words were for 15k they were c-ap. They happened to see this horse & the wife said that is exactly what I am looking for. He had come over from Germany, so they were given the contact who happen to be an english couple based in Germany. They were picked up from the airport taken to their hotel & the next 2 days were spent driving to see horses that she had specified. 4/6 years, gelding, no bigger then 16hh. Everyone of the horses they saw knocked spots off those seen in the UK & who wanted more money. The problem is they get government help, their breeding programmes are treated seriously & yes the horses may well be farmed, but why in 2007 do people still feel the need to go overseas? This horse by the way was bred from jumping lines, but had the movement for dressage & showed more talent in this direction. I saw a lot of horses over the 2 days at Addington, some very nice horses, but even at my level of knowledge I know that most would not stand up to the european horses for movement, & style over a fence...I know there are some very smart horses, I have seen them on here, but it seems the UK breeder is up against it because your overheads are way more then your european counterparts. So all I can say is good luck to you, because I think you are fighting an up hill battle. Not something you did not know!
 
I would love to have seen them perphaps next year when we are more central again then we may get back to seeing a few of these classes.
I havnt been to the Hunter show since it was last at Malvern.
I know what you mean about the quality of horses though as my vet made a comment recently about how awful horses are when you go and vet them and i look through H and H and think god that is awful.
I suppose as we have been busy building the yard up and not been to shows for a while things have changed.
The only thing i do know is if i can get people to travel and see our youngsters they generally buy one as they always remark on the quality as does our vet .
Our problem at the moment (hopefully not for long) is getting people to come and have a look.
Say Devon and hear the phone click down.
That said we have 3 lots of people who have rung up about foals/youngsters and we havnt advertised this year as had decided to move them all with us so perphas that is a good sign for us at least.
 
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The loose jumping thing btw i think is a total waste of time did it a few years ago at Malvern and found that the ones that won were the ones that had done the most prep work.
Dont know if the set up at Addington was any better but the pen they used to use at Malvern would actively discourage anything with any amount of scope as the surface moved.
Once was enough for my big moving big jumping horse he didnt even want to go forward after having got top marks for conformation and movement.

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An experienced loose jumping judge should be expert enough to identify horses that have been cooked from those that have natural talent. Even so, saying that the horses at Addington -- prepped or not -- were mostly pretty poor performers anyway and were all given practice times in the hour before the competition anyway!

The one thing that is always OK at Addington is the surface. Tim Price really knows his stuff and the new surfaces are designed to take just this sort of punishment so I don't really think that was an issue.

Now you mention it I had heard that there had been some sort of competition like this at Malvern a few years ago (wasn't iot in connection with a Brightwell's sale?) but the SHBGB one at Addington had no conformation etc section to it so it was judged (?) purely on jump.

One question does remain though. Given that Valerie Redbart, Pauline Ricketts and Tim Price were all on site and avaiable (all of whom have forgotten more about loosejumping than most of us will ever know) why on earth did SHBGB not call on them when Ian Stark failed to turn up? But I guess we will never know the answer to that one!
 
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