Lordosis

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tinawales

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Yearling Welsh Section A. As a foal was noted to have slight lowering of central part of back, looked bum high, and very high head carriage. As yearling has developed rather pronounced withers and is still bum high leaving a quite apparent lower section between the two. Moves fine and is super well in himself. If, as I fear, this is lordosis will it increase as he grows further? Is there any way (save at post mortem) to establish the diagnosis?
 
I know a welsh D who has a similar lordosis and although this has not affected his ability to work it does look unsightly especially as he is also rather porky in the belly dept!. I suspect that other than PM there isnt much you can do to get a diagnosis apart from chucking money at scans and scintigraphy etc. Belly lifting physio has been suggested and does work short term, as does being asked to work correctly from behind but Im not sure that any of this would make a long term difference. In people this condition often requires surgical straightening.
 
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In people this condition often requires surgical straightening.

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spanial i thin you;re getting scoliosis and lordosis confused, lordosis describes a curvature that is in the anterior (to the front) direction in humans -seen in the lower back, and curves in the ventral (towards the ground) in horses, scoliosis is a side to side (lateral) curve (as seen from the back) and yes if severe often surgically treated.
functionally for the horse an exaggerated lordosis could predispose towards kissing spine but like humans every horse is different, so long as the pony is functioning happily then don;t panic too much, as said working with a long low outline is most helpful as it will strengthen the topline muscles and help support the spine from the top as well as strengthening the abdominals which will bring the 2 ends of the 'lordotic curve' together heping to flatten it out thus helping keep the spinous processes apart.
hope that helps
 
So far as I can understand the condition in young horses it is caused by bilateral hypoplasia/aplasia of the articular facets of the vertebrae (pair of nubbly bits missing off the face of the vertebra) whilst scoliosis is unilateral (one nubbly bit missing). I doubt that exercise can do much about that - even if one could expect a small child's pony (which would be his future) to work in any outline.

Gallagher seems to suggest that it is heritable but a recessive gene. The mare, sadly, is in foal again and to a different stallion so I must hope that he is not a carrier.

It is very depressing as the yearling has a personality to die for - a real cheeky chappy who just loves to be fussed - and is, in all other respects, a most beautiful pony out of the best showing lines.

Vet coming over on Monday to have a look and advise on prognosis. I was hopeful that others on the forum would have had experience of this and its potential progress over his continuing growth period. If it does not progress further he would be rideable. If the future holds increasing deformity then pts may be the sensible option which would be heartbreaking.
 
Just for info severe lordosis can be treated by spinal fusion.

I think the symptoms described by OP are of lordosis rather than scoliosis as she doesnt mention convexity to either left or right.

Either way hopefully the yougster will be ok!
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sorry wires crossd here yes spanial quite right with the surgery however only if neuro involvement and other non surgical treatment isn;t effective.
tina, i think it really depends on the severity of the lordosis as to whether strengthening exercises could help, only real way to get a definitive answer is to have the xray/scintigraphy done,i would think as the pony is still a yearling it would be too early to definitely say he won't be able to adapt/cope with some lordosis and perhaps if you start early enough there may be benefit in the long term with this. can't see a problem with him working in some outline, plenty of event ponies manage ok!
let us know how he goes on.
 
The piebald in my siggie has lordosis. I bought him at 4 & he was bum high. He sadly never evened up but it doesn't affect him in any way.
He looks ok with his saddle on, but I get a few odd looks when I take it off!!
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He is working at novice BD & has just got his first points, plus he jumped clear in his first British novice SJ.
He has the most amazing attitude to work, is lovely to be around & although I wish he didn't have it, I wouldn't change him for the world.
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There is a picture of a horse which is affected at this url:

http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/hor...ion-231631.html

Searching the web for images brings up even worse cases. Little Isaac isn't that bad yet - but he is only 11 months old. He has a lot of growing to do to make 12hh. If it does not stabilise until he ceases growth he may end up in that configuration. So, whilst Spider may be competing successfully, and well done to Lucy for taking him on and giving him a happy life, who will want a little chap with that sort of deformity?

Keep fingers crossed that the vet will say that the condition will not increase much further.
 
We had one, a welshy. It became obvious around 8 months of age and became more pronounced until he was a yearling. After discussion with the vet he was turned out with the other youngsters to see how he matured. Unfotunately by the time he was four the dip was so extreme it was decided to pts. I believe it can be quite an issue with some welshies. It was worth waiting the few years to see how the condition developed, it may not have turned out to be so extreme and the pony could have gone on to have a useful life. Unfortunately this was not the case. Sorry if this is not a very positive story.
 
At last, a name for what my horse has - apart from dippy back, sway back. Never heard this term before. My lad is as bad as the one in the picture. He has been an advanced dressage horse (not with me !) He is as extreme as this picture. He has a special pad and doesnt seem to suffer with back trouble, he is checked 6 monthly and when he rolls in the field he rolls right over several times.
 
there's a good sjer (Grade A iirc) who has this (has extreme dippy spine like the one in the photo linked to above), apart from difficulties saddle-fitting, it doesn't seem to affect his ability or athleticism. i'd give the pony a good chance, esp as he'll only ever have small kids (and therefore light weights) on him presumably.
edited to add:
there's a good page about it here
http://www.equisearch.com/horses_care/health/anatomy/swaybacks_081205/
which states that it doesn't compromise the horse's ability to work:
""One of the unique characteristics of lordosis in horses is that the spinal deviation does not have a disabling effect," observes Patrick Gallagher, PhD, who researched equine lordosis while a graduate student at the University of Kentucky. "Even the most severely affected individuals can be trained and ridden and can participate in horse shows. Reports of spinal deviations in other species, such as people and dogs, identify drastic neurologic impairment in the most severe cases. These include incoordination, paralysis and risk of death."

i'm guessing this is because the very long dorsal spinous processes of the horse mean that the actual spinal column and cord are not affected, it just LOOKS weird as hell!
 
Yes I read the Gallagher paper. Comforting to know that there is no suffering involved. Dispiriting that he clearly identifies the heritable link. I am concerned that he just won't find a decent home.

We had intended to keep him entire (Sire was a multiple winner of RW stallion class with a personality to die for and his Mum has had a decent career in the show ring) as he was the last ungelded son of that stallion. Obviously once we realised that the dippy back was not just foal gawkiness but a genuine problem that idea went straight out of the window - as did in hand showing.

So his only potential future can be as a child's pony or a small driving pony. Who will want a pony which needs special saddle work in a credit crunch (I suppose we might get out of the recession by the time he is grown up)? Most of the horse charities are full to bursting with neglected animals and those whose owners have fallen on hard times.

We shall see what the vet says on Monday. Perhaps if we cut him somebody might fancy a free pony who is a sweety as a companion - with a loan agreement so that he doesn't get sold down the road.

Keep your fingers crossed that the mare doesn't produce a second problem foal. I don't think I could bear that.
 
If it is any consolation the dam of the lordosis case I mentioned had not previously, and has not since had any problem foals. She was put to a different stallion after the 'problem baby'. As far as we were aware the sire of the lordosis foal has not sired other foals with this problem either.
 
please don't put him to sleep just because he's not perfect, if, as it seems, it will not affect his usefulness as a riding or driving pony in future. i am sure he will find a place, there are lots of softies (like me) who would have him as a companion if absolutely necessary!
 

As promised, some photos of Spider. These 2 photos were taken today. He has definately improved with correct work & a correctly fitted saddle.
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This one is of him jumping..... so you can see it doesn't give him too much of a problem
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Thanks to Spider for posing so beautifully. He looks wonderful, fit, happy in his work - just a slightly eccentric gem who demonstrates that a good owner can make a happy horse.

Isaac isn't quite so "dippy" as that yet but he has a lot of growing to do. The vet texts say "not noticeable in foal" +"develops between 1 year and 18 months". So with it being discernable at 11 months I am pretty worried.

Mum still hasn't foaled - watching the monitor as I write - so fingers crossed (and "vibes" - whatever that may be). I'll report back after the vet comes tomorrow. I'll also post some pictures if my daughter will explain how to get them off the new digital SLR and onto HH. I'm too old to be handy with new technology.
 
Well, the vet has been. He is hopeful it will not develop much further so he is going to cut him next week. He hopes that might slow his growth a bit and might help (I don't actually see the logic to that). I did cheekily suggest that if he was wrong maybe he would like to refund the fee? However he didn't seem minded to back his opinion:)

Anyway we will give him a chance and see how he grows on. Meanwhile Mother still has her legs crossed and I have my fingers crossed for his sibling - I just wish it would put in an appearance...
 
This thread is really interesting. My daughter's Section A, Tweenie, has always been referred to as sway backed (and barrel ribbed bless her).

Hers is nothing as drastic as the picture posted though and isn't at all noticeable once she's tacked up.

When the osteo first saw her, she commented on how long the area behind her ribs to her pelvis is. It was so long ago now that I really can't remember how she termed it.

I just have to try and keep her slimmer, to prevent her belly from making her back dip more as she ages. I never thought of it as a condition before, more of an observation about her type. Interestingly, her sire was Twyfords Newflash and on several pictures of him, he also looked to have a sway back.....although I realise it could just be bad picture angles.

The oste also gave me some little exercises to do with her to make her "hump" her back...for want of a better phrase. I had to stick finger tips under the belly as that worked and also had to run my fingers along her quarters, down towards her hocks as this would also make her tuck under and lift up along the spine.
 
Great news. I will keep my fingers crossed that it doesn't worsen & that he will be able to have a good life & make some children very happy.

Plus, Good luck with the new arrival. Let us know when they put in an appearance
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Having mastered bucketshop I thought you would be interested to see the colt with lordosis. He is the little chestnut - you can see how his back joins on to the excessively high wither. Anyone who wants a free companion pony please contact by PM. He moves a treat and is the friendliest chap alive.
 
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