Lorry related how much

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Bossanova

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Woman at the yard has agreed in principal to me having the use of her 3.5tonne lorry. (insert celebratory smiley here)
I will pay the extra insurance and obv all fuel but how much do you think I should offer her either per day/per mile/per week/per month or whatever you think's best for the use of it.
It's a fairly old thing but very trustworthy and should be up to both my girls without going over limit but would obv weigh it and check.

Thankyou!!
 
Sorry to put a dampener on it all but supect you need to be very careful about this, if you pay her per mile etc would that not be classed as her operating the lorry for hire or reward even if you are a named driver?

May be way of course but would look into it very carefully.
 
Echo MrsT here I'm afraid, perhaps if you pay the insurance and road tax in full and then obviously always leave with more fuel than you got it with. Also agree beforehand about sharing the cost of maintenance. More miles=more maintenance. Paying per mile or whatever would mean she is operating for hire and reward and would require commercial insurance etc...
 
Yes had thought about this, thats why I was wary of doing it per mile or per day, thought maybe if I was to pay her to become a part owner, that may be a way round it?
 
I think it'll all come back to - if you are using your own or someone elses lorry and you are going to be winning prize money then you should be operating under a commercial licence - it is ludicrous however I understand that there seems to be no way round it. I wouldn't presume anyone will show up at a show ground but these days I wouldn't put it past them. I think if any money changes hands then you'll need to be very careful. x
 
Prize money??? You've obviously never met my horses
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Hmmm I'd have thought that hundreds of people do a similar thing though. Maybe I'll swap the lorry for me schooling her horse
 
How big are your 2? A 3.5t lorry is likely to be overweight (unless new and very lightweight) with 2 x 16hh plus all their associated gear!

I have a 6t lorry and am nearing max weight when fully laden with 16.1 TB type and 16.3 ID X TB, 2 adults and 2 teenagers.

My first thoughts on reading you proposals were that it would be hire and reward too.
 
I am sure there probably are loads of people who do what just this with lorries. Doesnt bear thinking about what would happen if in an accident and the insurance was delcared nul and void.

Are you saying as "payment" for use of the lorry you will school her horse? If so the interpretation is the same.
 
I think that has been the problem and the monkeys have cottoned on to the fact that people go out, pay to compete and win a nominal amount back so they might as well jump on the band wagon, they say wer're doing it as a living and charge us to pay for a licence. There has been a lot of press about it recently - I'll see if I can find an article. But your right - offer a non financial arrangement and that may get you round it.
 
Is this licence thing actually officially "in", know it has been talked about but different govt. departments say different things.

Personally would love to challenge that legislation, as an amateur rider in full time non-horsey employment how the hell can they say I am making a living from driving my lorry if I win a fiver on my own horse? If I am lucky enough to win the fiver it is, to my mind, reward for a performance in the ring, not for driving the lorry.

What a crazy world we live in.
 
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How big are your 2? A 3.5t lorry is likely to be overweight (unless new and very lightweight) with 2 x 16hh plus all their associated gear!


My first thoughts on reading you proposals were that it would be hire and reward too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mine are skinny 15.2s, as stated I'd get it weighed before considering travelling them both together. Gear isnt a problem, have someone who has already volunteered to cart it in her car so I think it would be very do-able.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I am sure there probably are loads of people who do what just this with lorries. Doesnt bear thinking about what would happen if in an accident and the insurance was delcared nul and void.

Are you saying as "payment" for use of the lorry you will school her horse? If so the interpretation is the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll have myself insured on the lorry so presumably that would be ok in event of an accident??
If no money changes hands, presumably the two events(me using lorry and schooling her horse) need not be connected....
 
Totall y agree with you!!! That's exactly how I feel about it! I'm scrolling through this internet for the articles I have read on this and can I find them!!! I'll post them as soon as I do!
 
Found it!
Winnings may make horsebox drivers illegal

Abigail Butcher and Karen Spinner

23 November, 2006

Horse & Hound examines the implications of a ruling that suggests horsebox owners who have won money at a competition need to have an operator's licence

Owners of horseboxes heavier than 3.5 tonnes who win competition prize-money but do not have an operator's licence for their vehicle run the risk of being fined, having their vehicles impounded, and facing prosecution, according to the Vehicle & Operator Services Agency (VOSA).

Even if winnings amount only to £5, this is the likely scenario if the owner/driver is found guilty in court of undertaking an activity that may be construed as "hire and reward" without the special licence, says VOSA, a subsidiary of the Department of Transport.


Likewise, if the horsebox owner offers a friend a lift — to anything from a competition to a ride on the beach — in return for petrol money or any other reward, VOSA says an operator's licence is required.


H&H reader Mark Batchelor says he will stop accepting prize-money at shows after VOSA contacted him to inquire whether he was operating his HGV for hire and reward.


"I wrote back to VOSA explaining that I only use the horsebox to take my wife and daughter's horses to local shows and that I did occasionally move a horse for a friend, but for no more than the cost of the fuel," Mr Batchelor explained.


"I received a letter from VOSA informing me that the moment you receive prize-money or fuel money, you need an operator's licence. As such, I have no option but to stop competing for money.


"How many private horsebox owners are in breach of the law? It does not seem to matter whether it has cost you £100 to attend a show and pay entries — the moment you win £5 you are in breach of the law."


A VOSA spokesman explained to H&H that it is the job of a court to rule on whether "hire and reward" is taking place, or whether a vehicle is being used in connection with a trade or business.


But he said: "When prize-money is awarded to someone in the operation of a horsebox with a gross plated weight of more than 3.5 tonnes, this may well be construed as commercial activity.


"If competition prize-money is considered 'reward', for the purpose of deciding if a vehicle is being used for hire and reward and thus requires an operator's licence, the amount is irrelevant."


VOSA also concludes that people with horseboxes transporting other people's horses as well as their own for "fuel money" translates to "hire".


But British Horse Society (BHS) chief executive Graham Cory doubts the validity of VOSA's claim.


"VOSA's view confuses purpose with incidental outcome. As only a minority of competitors will receive a prize, it cannot reasonably be held that they are acting in anticipation of a reward," he said.
 
But from what i have gathered the Lorry Bossanova is going to be using is under 3.5 tonns, so from scanning the article the rules will not apply?
 
I did read that article. Yet DEFRA say they do not interpret it the same. Talk about the left hand not knowing what the right is doing.

Would be interested to see an amateur go to court on this, if you presented the financial evidence of you "making a living" I suspect (and hope) any Judge in the land would laugh!

If I played golf and won £5 in a tournement would I then need "commercial" insurance for the vehicle that I used to get to the tournament with my golf equipment - I doubt it but it equates to the same "hire and reward"scenario.
 
If its under 3.5 tonnes then yes I gather you are correct however I would say it'd be a bit touch and go! Its just a bloody shame that noone is allowed to enjoy their hobbies without the ridiculous amount of unnecessary red tape!

If you google 'operators licence for horsbox owners' there are quite a few articles on it.
 
It's the world going mad and everyone trying to make money out of anything - oh I can feel my heart beat getting faster and the blood beginning to boil!
tongue.gif
 
Yes-I know what you mean about not being able to enjoy your hobby! It seems you can't do anything nowadays without having to have some sort of permission or license!
 
If VOSA/DEFRA deem winning of any prize money to be reward and thus require a commercial licence then I think I will register as a business and claim ALL horse and lorry expenses against my full income from all sources.

That should reduce my tax bill nicely.
 
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