Lost shoes - horse or farrier problem?

Captain Bridget

Captain Bridget

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Larry is known for pulling off shoes but he's been really good recently until this weekend.

On Friday evening we were jumping, only about 2'3, he went over and over reached on landing, twisting his front left shoe and going lame immediately. We pulled the shoe off, cleaned the hoof up and put a hoof boot on. He hadn't damaged the hoof itself amazingly but was foot sore, but it had been steadily improving and today he looked almost sound even on gravel.

He gets bored easily so I took him out for a walk in hand, didn't think this would do any harm as he had a hoof boot on and is turned out, just gives him a change of scenery.

We were only out for 15/20 minutes and most of it was on grass, came back onto the concrete around the farm and all of a sudden I heard a clank as he walked, turned round and his right front shoe just fell off!

Walked him the last 10 metres back to the yard, he wasn't too bad on flat tarmac/concrete but very lame on gravel. Looked at the shoe and the nails had snapped/sheared off so they were still in his foot! The hoof had cracked a bit where the shoe had come off. We didn't feel comfortable pulling these nails out so have put the hoof boot on this foot instead, given him some bute and turned him back out. He was alright as he walked across the field.

Now, the question is, is this an issue with the hooves or the farrier?

His soles have been a little soft recently so if you pick them out sometimes a bit will scrape away and show white stuff. (I know so little about feet!) But his hoof wall hasn't been too bad, he has 'typical' TB feet that crack sometimes but we've been putting Kevin Bacon hoof gunk on them and they've held up alright.

The farrier put side clips on him instead of toe clips last time he shod him. He is due to be shod on Saturday but hoping the farrier can come out sooner than that as we're entered in a big agricultural show in less than two weeks time! I always thought the angle of the hoof wasn't quite right and maybe his toes were a bit long but like I say, don't know much about hooves! Also someone mentioned today his hooves were quite square on the front.

Unfortunately I don't have any photos right now but I will get some tomorrow. Is this essay useless without them?!
 
The phrase 'Typical TB feet' is my pet hate. It's a man made problem and nothing to do with genetics.

Long toes alter the breakover, so makes it far more likely that the horse will pull shoes, in fact regularly pulling shoes is a big red flag that the hoof balance is wrong. It also sounds like his diet is wrong for him as good horn comes from a good diet, not from painting animal fat AKA Kevin Bacon on them. How many years in a row has the horse been shod?

Photos would be really helpful.
 
very old saying "no hoof no horse" if you have horse that pulls shoes you should really referred to your farrier and he should shoe for work you want to do and conformation of hoof. But as owner you must give farrier every chance and try and improve hoof growth, and use over reach etc and mange your horses environment eg turn time out, book in farrier on time or hoof. As he more shoes they pull off the less your farriers got to work with.
Discuss with farrier, be realistic about your horses conformation, and if farrier is unhelpful = change to better farrier
 
farrier.....
a good farrier will work with and help improve your horses problems
a bad farrier will make what the horse 'has' worse

however it is a bit of a chicken and egg question....bad foot first or bad farrier?
 
If the horse is shod, it has no say in it's hoof balance...

A good farrier/trimmer can take a bad hoof and improve it. Diet is also key if the horn quality is poor.
 
Well the nails shouldn't really be shearing off if the nails are made of good quality metal, so I would definitely question that. How long have you been using this farrier?
 
Faracat said:
The phrase 'Typical TB feet' is my pet hate. It's a man made problem and nothing to do with genetics.

Long toes alter the breakover, so makes it far more likely that the horse will pull shoes, in fact regularly pulling shoes is a big red flag that the hoof balance is wrong. It also sounds like his diet is wrong for him as good horn comes from a good diet, not from painting animal fat AKA Kevin Bacon on them. How many years in a row has the horse been shod?

Photos would be really helpful.
Click to expand...

This. You say you don't know much about feet. Perhaps it's time to educate yourself? (Not meant in a bitchy way)
 
Faracat said:
The phrase 'Typical TB feet' is my pet hate. It's a man made problem and nothing to do with genetics.

Long toes alter the breakover, so makes it far more likely that the horse will pull shoes, in fact regularly pulling shoes is a big red flag that the hoof balance is wrong. It also sounds like his diet is wrong for him as good horn comes from a good diet, not from painting animal fat AKA Kevin Bacon on them. How many years in a row has the horse been shod?

Photos would be really helpful.
Click to expand...

He's been shod probably since he was a youngster as he's an ex racer. We've been using this farrier for less than a year, but he had been used previously on the horse before he moved yards. (He is not my horse, I am just his sharer but ride/look after him every day and am hoping to help his owner out by understanding this problem.) The farrier used before wasn't great and he lost a lot more shoes whilst being shod by him.

He's currently not fed anything, just on 24/7 turnout. Is there any feed or supplement in particular you'd suggest to helping strengthen his feet?

I absolutely should educate myself, hence starting this thread. Like I say, he's not mine so I don't have final say but any suggestions I can make to his owner would be great.

I will take photos when I go up this afternoon. (Yes, I'm a sharer that still goes to the yard even when she can't ride her horse!) ;)

Also, are there any books/websites etc that are good for learning about feet?
 
How long does he go between shoeings?

With regards to supplements prohoof (from proearth on ebay) or forageplus supplements are good for feet and all round health.

also I do think the nails would shear if there has been repeated movement of them for sometime/they are no longer clenched tight.
 
Oh Larry! (I'm jess from HMF :p )
I've just had hero's shoes taken off because he was pulling them so frequently .. after reading up on hooves and barefoot i've realised that he over reaches because the hoof balance is incorrect, and a horse shouldnt have to live in over reach boots 24/7 like Hero did :(

This is my trimmer website http://www.thenaturalhoof.co.uk/ and I found it really informative :)
I've switched his feed to fast fibre with pro balance plus, I can't hack without hoof boots but he's field and arena sound with nothing on his feet. He only had fronts on though so the transition was easier as his hinds are already bare.

Hope you can get him sorted soon :(
 
Jess! <3 I love that you've got Hero barefoot now! I would love for Larry to go barefoot, but we want him sound for this show in a couple of weeks. :( He lives in over reach boots too.

That website is fascinating! Shame they're up north! He's doing it the wrong way round at the moment, he's taken his front shoes off and left his hinds! I think he's shod every 5 weeks if I remember correctly.

I'll have a look at feeds and supplements, he'll need to start being fed soon as he drops weight over winter anyway.

Thanks for the advice everyone, it's so interesting.
 
Feet too long all around, get backs shorter than hinds, shorter feet make a stronger fit for the nail, make sure shoes fit the horse and there is not inches of shoe hanging out the back of the front feet, but definitely get feet shortened for starters.
 
Here are the pictures. He was incredibly uncomfortable standing on the packed hardcore of the yard so tried to do it quickly so they're not brilliant. Poor boy, he's obviously miserable and the farrier definitely won't be out until Saturday when he's due. :( I just don't know what I can do for him, I'm giving him bute, he's got our only hoof boot on the worse foot, I'm cleaning out his feet and checking on them everyday and he's out in a nice field with plenty of grass, I don't want to keep him in his box or he'll go mad. He loves being out.

Sorry, feeling a bit hopeless at the moment with him. Found out today he can't be registered with ROR as he's only raced in Ireland so we might not be able to compete at the big show in the class we want to do.

Photobucket helpfully put them in a random order so fingers crossed I won't get any photos twice..

Front right, the one he pulled off first.
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And front left, with the nails still in.
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Appreciate my awesome shoes please. Haha.
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And for reference, right hind.
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Left hind, do those lumps look like windgalls?
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I have pictures of both shoes as well if anyone is interested!!

Any and all feedback/ideas most welcome! I hate seeing him like this.
 
I am far less of an expert than you Captain Bridget, but I would say if he has had this farrier for a year - and more - and his feet are in this state then IMO the farrier is not doing the best job. Does the yard you are at have any other farriers come to it? You or the owner might be able to get some info on other farriers. And that does look like a windgall to me, not a very big one. Hope he comes right for you but looks to me as though it could take some time.
 
ester said:
also I do think the nails would shear if there has been repeated movement of them for sometime/they are no longer clenched tight.
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No excessive movement wouldn't do it, repeated excessive force would, or possibly excessive heat.

Those feet don't look great - if they've been like that for some while then the farrier should really have at least made some comment to the owner. It's pretty bad practice to just keep nailing shoes on feet like that. Might be worth discussing different farrier options with the owner if they are open too it (since it sounds like barefoot is not really an option). Good luck with him, I'm sure the rough patch will pass - rubbish news about the ROR though :(
 
If he was mine, I'd aim to pull the shoes and get a better Farrier/Trimmer, review his diet and boot (with pads) if needed.

Putting effort into fixing his hoof balance now will give him a far higher chance of staying sound long term. My Farrier certainly believes that poor hoof balance contributes to the development of 'Navicular Syndrome.'
 
Would that mean he would be unsound long term though? I would happily pull his shoes and use a barefoot trimmer but I suggested it to his owner today and she is one of those 'his hoof wouldn't hold up and I don't like it' people. And it's her money going towards it. Unfortunately we are on a tight budget.

Would he come sound, short term, with shoes? Or if he was trimmed correctly be sound in hoof boots?
 
Captain Bridget said:
Would that mean he would be unsound long term though? I would happily pull his shoes and use a barefoot trimmer but I suggested it to his owner today and she is one of those 'his hoof wouldn't hold up and I don't like it' people. And it's her money going towards it. Unfortunately we are on a tight budget.

Would he come sound, short term, with shoes? Or if he was trimmed correctly be sound in hoof boots?
Click to expand...

There are still lots of things you can do to improve the quality of his feet and there are farriers who can help while shoeing him. Unfortunately this farrier doesn't sound the best, but that might be unfair - talk to the owner and see if the pair of you can ask around about farriers or talk to the current one and take it from there. Hoof grows continuously so it needn't be a long term problem :)
 
In simple terms at the moment his hooves are deformed/mis-shapen. This is because the Farrier has not balanced his hooves correctly. The pulled shoes are due to the altered breakover caused by the mis-shapen hooves.

So they need to be improved. Remember - no foot, no horse.

The best way to do this is without shoes.

It can be done to a certain extent with shoes, but you still risk him pulling shoes and taking chunks of horn away. Also the hooves will still be peripherally loaded. Doing this will be far better than doing nothing and continuing how things are presently.

You can improve his diet regardless of whether he's shod or not - so do that. :)

It's true to say that the horses with the most shoe-sick hooves, who 'can't possibly cope without shoes' are the very same horses who would benefit from having a proper BF rehab the most.

But... he's not your horse, so all you can do is talk to the owner and at least try to get a better farrier to care for him.

For your own knowledge - go to the Rockley Farm Blog and search for 'navicular' and 'contracted heels'. Also read as much as you can take ;) the photos of hoof improvements and the videos of footfall will really help you understand what's going on.

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/
 
From the photo evidence alone it would appear that a significant proportion of the outer hoof wall has been rasped out. There is also evidence of dietary issues. If he were mine I would use a quality mineral mix from Forage Plus or Pro Hoof. The stuff you can buy in feed shops is not particularly good value.
 
His feet look like Hero's! He also looks quite flat footed which will be why he is extra sensitive on the stones.

I've ridden him consistently since he's had his shoes pulled :) I just boot up for hacking and stony tracks (getting to/from the field in my case ugh) and he hasn't been lame.

He is field sound with nothing on his feet, and although tender at first, he can walk on flat concrete barefoot too, as well as work in the school. My friend rode him last night and commented that you couldn't even tell that he had no shoes on as he wasn't at all uncomfortable/footy.
The only time he did go really footy even with boots is when i forgot to put his pads in for a hack and we ended up going over a large stony patch which he wasn't sure of.

I would definitely see if you can get another farrier look at him if that's possible if BF isn't an option, or if his owner would let you you could get some hoof boots - i know Robinsons had the cavallo sport/simples in the sale! (I use the simples and even galloped in them and they stayed on apart from once trotting in a lumpy field)

Bridget I hope you can get something sorted for him - and that sucks royally about the ROR :-( Horses are a PITA!
x
 
Yes, he's definitely flat footed. I put sponges under his feet and vet wrapped and taped them up to hopefully give a bit of relief. The farrier is coming on Saturday morning, I might see if I can be there to speak to him.

He's currently not being fed anything other than the grass in the field and a bit of hay if he comes in. As a blank canvas what would anyone suggest feeding? He has a tendency to lose weight over winter and we don't have a huge budget either.

I want to help him but don't want his owner to think I'm nagging or trying to take over with my suggestions!
 
Discuss with your farrier, good farriers will always take the time to work with you to come up with the best management plan for your horse. We have also had a very dry summer, depending on your region, if like one of mine his feet get dry and brittle it may help to use a hoof moisturiser (NAF do a good one), apply daily but not to area where nails go in. If feet brittle and dry more likely to crack and lose shoes. Good luck and never feel worried about asking questions, we all need advice from time to time.
 
you keep mentioning that you are on a tight budget.

Perhaps that may be the way to address this with the owner... "you wouldn't have to pay for shoes each month".

My old tb was exactly the same. The farrier recommended removing his shoes to toughen his feet up (this was 20 years ago, I hadn't even heard of the whole barefoot thing back then). To be perfectly honest, we had a field ornament for quite some time, we just gave him time off and dealt with it. So worst case scenario, you won't be able to do much with him for a while. However, you can't exactly do much now either.

As he keeps throwing shoes and chipping hoof though, you're going to have less and less for the farrier to work with.
 
Whilst they are a bit long at the toe they vertainly aren't the worst I have seen!

If you get yourself a really good farrier they could be sorted with shoes on if owner doesn't want to go barefoot.

Where I am I am spoilt for excellent farriers but if you aren't sure I would
find the nearest big equine clinic and ask them who does their remedial work and then see if they will take a look.

Owner of a TB horse who wouldn't do without shoes even though she had never been shod when I got her and a wbxtb horse who hunted happily unshod.
 
Not the worst at all.

I quite possibly own one that is in the running for that sad honour, which is why I get so cross about it. My concerns with my horse were dismissed by the Farrier and three Vets. It happened quickly too - 'normal' hooves to really long toes in a few months. So a new Farrier was organised and she had her shoes pulled, I got her on a low sugar, high fibre diet and she's never looked back.
 
I know F. I have seen some amazingly bad farriery pictures all over the forum so not just you that got caught out. Was a real eye opener to me as in my neck of the woods the standard is generally pretty high. I am just down the road from Newmarket (so Rossdales and NEH and AHT) and also WHW head quarters as well as Redwings so we really do well for having an excellent standard of farrier. I never knew anything about it until I came on here but that is because I literally never needed to. My farrier growing up shod and still shoes for WHW and my current one does the Redwings bunch amongst many others. I am very, very lucky to be where I am with amazing vets and farriers and physios etc all just down the road!
 
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