Lottie and Everdale latest test wins, God help us rewarding this disgrace.

[splashgirl45]

Quite interesting, he is saying no double bridles and no spurs at any events ,which is unlikely to happen but if you are heavy handed in a snaffle it can be pretty bad for the horse so I don’t think removing the tack will help, the judges need to mark with regard to the fei directives, which at the moment, they are not. So once the judges reward harmony and lightness higher than overbent harshly ridden horses , nothing will change..

 

[Ambers Echo]

I like the parallels he drew with eventing. Change scoring/format and competitors instantly changed how horses were managed and trained.

And very clear that judging needs to change - with judges removed from high level judging for ignoring the rules on blue tongues/tension etc

 

[tristars]

or start a new class for elite riders and horses who can perform without curb bits and whose horses don`t need spurs

a whole new way of rewarding certain training methods, at any level, to show the way forwards and reward the results of a new [probably old system in reality]

introduce a system of scoring that rewards potential alongside new/olds and not rushing youngsters on to much and rewarding relaxation at the lower levels

let the two run concurrently at the same venues

and add serious low marks for tension, tail swishing, etc

 

[Cortez]

or start a new class for elite riders and horses who can perform without curb bits and whose horses don`t need spurs

a whole new way of rewarding certain training methods, at any level, to show the way forwards and reward the results of a new [probably old system in reality]

introduce a system of scoring that rewards potential alongside new/olds and not rushing youngsters on to much and rewarding relaxation at the lower levels

let the two run concurrently at the same venues

and add serious low marks for tension, tail swishing, etc

There is nothing stopping anyone running classes accommodating different tack now: go ahead and organise one. If they are successful and popular then the FEI will accredit the sport and that will be great, and perhaps the modern sport of dressage will adapt and change under the influence of a better way of doing it.

ETA*I don’t understand the fixation on double bridle = bad, snaffle = good. Snaffles are nasty, pinching, bruising things in uneducated hands and are rather “dull”, unclear instruments from the horse’s point of view. Double bridles, and curb bits more particularly, are much finer and lighter in their action and in the hands of an aficionado can give the subtlest communication. Bits are only as good (or bad) as what’s on the other end of the reins.

 

[tristars]

There is nothing stopping anyone running classes accommodating different tack now, go ahead and organise one.

why don`t you ?

 

[Cortez]

why don`t you ?

Because I have no interest in competitive dressage whatsoever. I’ve been riding horses in baroque displays for 24 years, that’s what I moved to after leaving “modern” dressage in despair.

ETA I also don’t think that riding everything bridleless, or bitless, or without spurs, or bareback, is the answer.

 

[eahotson]

There is nothing stopping anyone running classes accommodating different tack now: go ahead and organise one. If they are successful and popular then the FEI will accredit the sport and that will be great, and perhaps the modern sport of dressage will adapt and change under the influence of a better way of doing it.

ETA*I don’t understand the fixation on double bridle = bad, snaffle = good. Snaffles are nasty, pinching, bruising things in uneducated hands and are rather “dull”, unclear instruments from the horse’s point of view. Double bridles, and curb bits more particularly, are much finer and lighter in their action and in the hands of an aficionado can give the subtlest communication. Bits are only as good (or bad) as what’s on the other end of the reins.

Same goes for spurs.They can be instruments of abuse

There is nothing stopping anyone running classes accommodating different tack now: go ahead and organise one. If they are successful and popular then the FEI will accredit the sport and that will be great, and perhaps the modern sport of dressage will adapt and change under the influence of a better way of doing it.

ETA*I don’t understand the fixation on double bridle = bad, snaffle = good. Snaffles are nasty, pinching, bruising things in uneducated hands and are rather “dull”, unclear instruments from the horse’s point of view. Double bridles, and curb bits more particularly, are much finer and lighter in their action and in the hands of an aficionado can give the subtlest communication. Bits are only as good (or bad) as what’s on the other end of the reins.

 

[eahotson]

Same goes for spurs.They can be instruments of abuse

Or they can enable very light aids.

 

[planete]

Unfortunately it is difficult to advocate for spurs and double bridles when people see the way they are often being misused. If we saw more advanced riders able and willing to train and ride with light aids it might go some way towards increasing understanding of what classical riding and the use of double bridles and spurs should look like. As it is, I am afraid we are going to lose it except among some rarefied small groups of enthusiasts.

Perhaps turning an art into a competitive sport was not such a good idea?

 

[Cortez]

Unfortunately it is difficult to advocate for spurs and double bridles when people see the way they are often being misused. If we saw more advanced riders able and willing to train and ride with light aids it might go some way towards increasing understanding of what classical riding and the use of double bridles and spurs should look like. As it is, I am afraid we are going to lose it except among some rarefied small groups of enthusiasts.

Perhaps turning an art into a competitive sport was not such a good idea?

I completely agree with the not-turning-it-into-a-sport sentiment. There are infinite examples of fine riding to be found, just not very often at the higher levels of competitive sport, which is profoundly shameful and reflecting very badly on the governing bodies of those sports. The culprits are of course entirely to blame for their abusive riding and training; so are the judges that reward it, and the rules-makers who arbitrate the standards.

There are as many (if not way more) instances of misuse of snaffles and their derivatives as there are of double bridles.

 

[tristars]

its not just about the misuse of tack

its about the ones who are running the comps FEI needing demonstrate some sort of acknowledgement that things need to change and showing they are making some effort

its not about snaffle v curb, or bitless, more about riders achieving a standard of riding where they can actually use their legs and seat in a way that the horse understands, which is reflected in the positioning of the head and neck and not depending on curbs to flex and over flex the poll

 

[PurpleSpots]

Personally, although it is obviously important that the mouthpiece of any bit is comfortable when at rest and in use for the horse, I think it would be a much better step to ban flashes and similar nosebands, and insist on a loose cavesson noseband rule, checked as every horse leaves the arena after a test, at any competition.

Given that the mouth is often the first area to show any tension or protest, it has always been beyond me as to why it is acceptable to strap the horse's mouth shut, effectively silencing what they feel they need to express. It isn't the judge's opinion which matters most, or what the picture looks like, it is how the horse feels that is the most imperative thing. And how can we tell how they are feeling if we silence them?

 

[SpeedyPony]

Personally, although it is obviously important that the mouthpiece of any bit is comfortable when at rest and in use for the horse, I think it would be a much better step to ban flashes and similar nosebands, and insist on a loose cavesson noseband rule, checked as every horse leaves the arena after a test, at any competition.

Given that the mouth is often the first area to show any tension or protest, it has always been beyond me as to why it is acceptable to strap the horse's mouth shut, effectively silencing what they feel they need to express. It isn't the judge's opinion which matters most, or what the picture looks like, it is how the horse feels that is the most imperative thing. And how can we tell how they are feeling if we silence them?

I think a big part of the problem is that the rules they have aren't being enforced- at higher levels only a cavesson is permitted and there are rules about how tight they can be (which still allow them to be tighter than I was taught in my PC days!), but the tightness rule is not consistently enforced.
Personally, I'd like to see tack checks for everyone by a steward  before competing, so that riders with overly tight nosebands/curb chains etc had to either adjust them or not be allowed to enter the ring in the first place.

 

[planete]

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbi...m.1819649658458485&idorvanity=276428596113940

It can be done...

 

[Tinsel]

I just saw that Lottie and her horse have been disqualified because a judge saw blood in the horse mouth i didn't read much off the story has any of you had a chance to officially read it yet

 

[PurpleSpots]

Personally, I'd like to see tack checks for everyone by a steward  before competing

I absolutely agree, but I think it could be difficult for the rider and horse to maintain concentration and focus if there was this sort of interruption and interference between their warm up and test. Hopefully the knowledge that they'd be disqualified immediately on leaving the ring would be enough to dissaude them all from having tack breaches - and if not immediately as the new rules came into effect, then after one or two eliminations after the follow-through.

 

[Cortez]

its not just about the misuse of tack

its about the ones who are running the comps FEI needing demonstrate some sort of acknowledgement that things need to change and showing they are making some effort

its not about snaffle v curb, or bitless, more about riders achieving a standard of riding where they can actually use their legs and seat in a way that the horse understands, which is reflected in the positioning of the head and neck and not depending on curbs to flex and over flex the poll

Overflexion of the neck and poll - rollkür - is generally achieved by the use of draw reins in early training though, not by using the curb - rollkür involves much more than just the hand and the mouth. And tack is routinely checked before competition at FEI level competitions, at least it was in the days when I was doing it, and often after too.

How can we tell how horses are feeling? By riding them, surely? …..any decent rider should know how their horse is feeling on a minute by minute basis whilst they’re sitting on their backs, and during daily interaction.

 

[PurpleSpots]

My point about restrictive nosebands is that - from a distance - they make the picture look more acceptable. Though this is why the horse then starts to exhibit other signs of pain and stress which are often more subtle - because they are simply not able to exhibit the more obvious signs. One issue is that these more subtle signs of pain/stress/tension are being ignored. If resistance was clearer to see - with an open mouth or similar - there'd be alot less 'woolliness' about people being marked down for it.

At the moment it is deemed undesirable for a horse to open their mouth in a dressage test (and show other forms of resistance), and the focus then goes on how to make sure the horse can't open their mouth so that the picture (unless you look deeper) is more desirable in order to gain more marks. If it was impossible to stop the horse opening their mouth by outlawing anything but a loose cavesson, then the focus surely would have to shift to how to make sure the horse doesn't feel the need to open their mouth (or show other forms of resistance of course, but I'm focusing on the mouth right now), which surely would lead to better, more supportive training. And would reward those who are training more supportively already.

If restrictive nosebands (and I'm sure many other things, but tight nosebands in this train of thought) weren't allowed at any level, it would be far more obvious to anyone that a horse was exhibiting signs of pain/stress/tension, and this would force much change in how horses are trained. The horse's own reactions would indicate clearly what they feel is positive for them and what isn't. For example, if instead of putting a flash on people had to work out WHY the horse had begun opening their mouth (pain of any sort, stress or anxiety from their training, stress or anxiety in their daily life) it would lead to a far more supportive and agreeable training environment for the horse - the horse would have a line of commmunication which couldn't be immediately shut down. I think that is what's missing so much - people are giving the final say in what is ok for a horse to other people. And often to people who are invested in the horse being used as a vessel for a sport/money, rather than those who are not so biased in wanting and needing things to carry on how they are.

The final say in what is ok for a horse needs to be given back to the horse.

The horse is the only one who is capable of being completely unbiased, and honest about what feels good for them and what doesn't. And so we need them to be able to express this, without restriction.

 

[PurpleSpots]

How can we tell how horses are feeling? By riding them, surely? …..any decent rider should know how their horse is feeling on a minute by minute basis whilst they’re sitting on their backs, and during daily interaction.

Sorry, I should have written this reply before my longer one above.

The trouble is, alot of riders aren't able to appreciate how their horse is feeling, either when riding them or when interacting with them in other ways.

And often, when the horse does communicate something to them it is deemed 'undesirable behaviour' which is then shut down with a gadget or new piece of tack, or trained/drilled out of them, rather than the horse's input being taken as important. Because this is being a good horseperson, to be able to get around whatever problems the horse throws at you and to get them to do what you want. Or so many people think it is.

If the horse feels the path of least resistance is to conform then they generally do that after a while, and compensate themselves in order to do it. And alot of people then interpret this as the horse having just been difficult or awkward, and now having got past it and accepting the requirement. But this isn't true.

Banning anything but a loose cavesson noseband is just one idea for how to give the horse more ability to be heard.

 

[ycbm]

How can we tell how horses are feeling? By riding them, surely? …..any decent rider should know how their horse is feeling on a minute by minute basis whilst they’re sitting on their backs, and during daily interaction.

Agreed, but first you have to be feeling and looking, and then you have to know what you are looking at. Some people are almost superhuman in the ability to look and listen and encyclopedic in their knowledge of how to interpret what they are seeing and feeling. And even if many people clear the first hurdle, most of us don't clear the second and that's obvious from being in any big livery yard or at any big competition.

The big issue with high level sport is that people who definitely should know either don't or know but don't want to damage their chances of a rosette.
.

 

[Cortez]

The big issue with high level sport is that people who definitely should know either don't or know but don't want to damage their chances of a rosette.
.

THIS ^^^^

 

[splashgirl45]

I think the noseband should be checked before they start their warm up and stewards should be watching to see if grooms or riders adjust it before the test. There aren’t usually too many horses warming up at the same time so that should be possible. Seems to me that checking as they come out is pointless as they have already been judged and had the advantage of the tight noseband. It’s pointless changing the tack as the abusive riders will still be harsh with their hands. Change is in the hands of the fei judges, as they have been rewarding extravagant movement above smooth harmonious correct tests. I love classic briolincas tests(can’t spell her name) ridden by Gareth Hughes but have always felt she wasn’t marked high enough against the big movers , who IMO didn’t deserve the huge marks that they got .. that photo of Carl and EnVogue shows how it should be done and from posts I’ve seen people were saying it was a beautiful test to watch but he had a couple of mistakes so was still the runner up to CDJ.. I’m hoping there might be a clip of his test online as I don’t have CMH but as I want to watch the equestrians in Paris I may have to splash out

 

[tristars]

If restrictive nosebands (and I'm sure many other things, but tight nosebands in this train of thought) weren't allowed at any level, it would be far more obvious to anyone that a horse was exhibiting signs of pain/stress/tension, and this would force much change in how horses are trained. The horse's own reactions would indicate clearly what they feel is positive for them and what isn't. For example, if instead of putting a flash on people had to work out WHY the horse had begun opening their mouth (pain of any sort, stress or anxiety from their training, stress or anxiety in their daily life) it would lead to a far more supportive and agreeable training environment for the horse - the horse would have a line of commmunication which couldn't be immediately shut down. I think that is what's missing so much - people are giving the final say in what is ok for a horse to other people. And often to people who are invested in the horse being used as a vessel for a sport/money, rather than those who are not so biased in wanting and needing things to carry on how they are.

this is the crux of the matter, do they lack the skills to know WHY and starting by looking at what they as a rider are doing wrong, or is it just brutality

this is what horsemanship is, understanding what it is that makes the horse do something and working out what to do as a long term remedy, and looking what the rider trainer is doing to create or add to the `problem`

all nosebands should be quite loose to allow the horse to move its jaw freely

 

[tristars]

The big issue with high level sport is that people who definitely should know either don't or know but don't want to damage their chances of a rosette.
.

also high level sport is where horses are put in positions, and asked to do things that may kill or damage them. so the element of risk is deemed part of the gamble to be a winner

 

[teapot]

Worth remembering the chap at Badminton in 2021 (?) who was seen loosening his noseband post test, pre leaving the main arena, and was rightly yellow carded/banned.

Noseband rules need to be across all sports imho.

 

[shortstuff99]

Worth remembering the chap at Badminton in 2021 (?) who was seen loosening his noseband post test, pre leaving the main arena, and was rightly yellow carded/banned.

Noseband rules need to be across all sports imho.

Same rider who's horse fell/collapsed at the last fence due to exhaustion and inexplicably not carded for that.