Lottie's lameness work up...

I would really want to have a look at what's going on inside the front feet .
By all means go into thrush overkill mode it will do no harm .
My worry with physio is that it can send you down the strong track it makes the horse feel superficially better so it goes a bit better but it can muddy the water .
We kept my horse in quite hard work in the hope that he would give us a few more clues he was much less than 1/10th lame .
What did the vet say about work ?
 
Faracat said:
Yes, the hoof is very flared at the quarters.
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Quarters?
Not look at in the flesh her foot looks like 2 different feet too to bottom. It's not easy to see on the photos.

This was her other front foot last week.

BFBED3C3-3FB8-4DAD-8471-E16BD52E2BDF_zpsmxtjpamr.jpg
 
atlantis said:
Quarters?
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If you look at the sole shot and imagine a clock face, the toe is at 12 (or when the minute hand is on the hour), the central sulcus of the frog/heels is at 6 (or when the minute hand is at half past the hour) and the really flared areas with the stretched white line are at 3 and 9 approx (or quarter to and quarter past the hour).
 
Goldenstar said:
I would really want to have a look at what's going on inside the front feet .
By all means go into thrush overkill mode it will do no harm .
My worry with physio is that it can send you down the strong track it makes the horse feel superficially better so it goes a bit better but it can muddy the water .
We kept my horse in quite hard work in the hope that he would give us a few more clues he was much less than 1/10th lame .
What did the vet say about work ?
Click to expand...

Thanks golden star.

To work her. Starting gently and building up. She is very unfit and not strong in any areas.

I see what you're saying about Physio. However I am a perfectionist and will keep on.

I'm not happy with how I've been sitting waiting for this splint to heel when it's been a red herring really. (Or was it, who knows)

Cross with myself but hind site is an amazing thing. I need to get in top of the thrush and I'll get some cleantrax (sp?) asap. I think it started when she was in in box rest and in season so mega mega wet. I was going three times a day and staying as long as my 3 yr old daughter would let me to get her out of her box and to clean it out but it was, quite frankly, disgusting.
 
Faracat said:
If you look at the sole shot and imagine a clock face, the toe is at 12 (or when the minute hand is on the hour), the central sulcus of the frog/heels is at 6 (or when the minute hand is at half past the hour) and the really flared areas with the stretched white line are at 3 and 9 approx (or quarter to and quarter past the hour).
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Perfect thanks!! yes it is!!
 
You guys are great thanks. Sorry if I'm at all snappy. Stroppy Physios (according to my consultant colleagues at work it's a known trait).

So problems are

1. Thrush
2. Weak frogs and underun heels
3. Splint
4. Shoulder reaction (very severe. Sweet pony tried to double barrel me).
5. Overweight / fat pads

So plan is (same numbers)

1. Cleantrax
2. Trim and exercise. Maybe boot and pad
3. Hopefully not a problem. Will keep an eye
4. Physio tomorrow.
5. Exercise and cont with soaked hay and low sugar diet.

Anyone do anything else?
 
atlantis said:
You guys are great thanks. Sorry if I'm at all snappy. Stroppy Physios (according to my consultant colleagues at work it's a known trait).

So problems are

1. Thrush
2. Weak frogs and underun heels
3. Splint
4. Shoulder reaction (very severe. Sweet pony tried to double barrel me).
5. Overweight / fat pads

So plan is (same numbers)

1. Cleantrax
2. Trim and exercise. Maybe boot and pad
3. Hopefully not a problem. Will keep an eye
4. Physio tomorrow.
5. Exercise and cont with soaked hay and low sugar diet.

Anyone do anything else?
Click to expand...

I would make sure you have a good hoof supplement with copper - such as Pro Hoof - as well as just the Clean Trax. Apologies if you already covered that. Hoof health from the inside out. I also think supplementing with salt is not only cheap but seems to show in an improved hoof.

With the look of the side view I would also Xray so your trimmer can plan a personalised trim. I do not want to get into a farrier/trimmer debate, but I would have a trimmer not necessarily to do the work, but to talk you through what they see, as I have found they see differently to a farrier. More knowledge is a good thing, and your current trim looks like a farrier trim, not that that is wrong, but it may be of interest to you to hear an alternate view as I think a trimmer would trim differently.

I use the Clean Trax if the hoof looks to be going off a little but I also scrub daily with a dry brush, and spray some nettex frog health on if anywhere is not immaculate.
 
Red-1 said:
I would soak in Clean Trax, you would need 2 bottles to do all 4 feet, and a soaking boot. It really does get to the bottom of Thrush though, even though it is a bit of a faff standing around waiting for 3/4 an hour soak time per foot. It is around £10 a bottle, and can only be mixed just prior to use, and is not active any more after the hour and a half.
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This stuff is amazing, cleaned little appys feet up fab after his bad abcess last year.
 
atlantis said:
I'm a (human) Physio!!! We don't have magic wands. Contrary to popular belief 2 different professionals can work together. I'm going to get the Physio tomorrow as I valur her opinion. She is an excellent acpat registered Physio.

I agree a further opinion may be necessary but I will do that with full involvement of the vet I was with today. The practice is an enormous equine hospital with many vets. Already had 2 different ones involved. The guy who came out to see her and he referred to the specialist at the practice, who we saw today.

I will fully involve my farrier, Physio and both vets. It's called multidisciplinary working and we do it all the time in the nhs!!!
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meanwhile the vets are spending all your insurance money (don't get me started) get the x-rays done and see what you are dealing with FIRST.
 
Agree that minerals [and linseed and salt] will help hoof health. As long as there is not going to be damage, I would have her on a sachet or a bit more of Danilon overnight so you can long rein on tarmac without pain, assuming she is sensible. Riding on a soft surface is not going to do the job so well. I am sure the feet are going to change quite a lot, I really would not put shoes on until thrush and white line is improved, assuming it can be kept clean and so on. Quite a lot of things have happened, so event lines will appear. I'd hold off with X rays for a week or more till things settle down again.
 
I am sorry that the work up has not come up with things in black and white..poor Lottie. I read the replies and there seems to be lots of food for thought and avenues to pursue ..your plan seems sensible and I don't have any additional insights except perhaps taking very clear photos of Lottie showing current muscle and maybe videos of her moving in straight lines walk and trot...do the work with feet and feed and exercise and take comparison photos etc in a month/two months so that you can actually compare and contrast any changes and improvements.
 
hihosilver said:
meanwhile the vets are spending all your insurance money (don't get me started) get the x-rays done and see what you are dealing with FIRST.
Click to expand...
That is not logical, not sure OP mentioned insurance, but just holding off from X rays is going to reduce current vet fees, having X rays and finding nothing could be a waste of money, but if it needs to be done it won't be any more expensive in ten days time.
My thinking is that they are not clear where the problem is, so waiting a few weeks to see if it improves is one solution which costs nothing. Remember the splint may have started this off, or maybe something else. The feet, soles, frogs can only improve if OP is able to exercise.
Where are they to X-ray? if they don t find something, the next stage gets more technical and more expensive.
 
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Red-1 said:
I would make sure you have a good hoof supplement with copper - such as Pro Hoof - as well as just the Clean Trax. Apologies if you already covered that. Hoof health from the inside out. I also think supplementing with salt is not only cheap but seems to show in an improved hoof.

With the look of the side view I would also Xray so your trimmer can plan a personalised trim. I do not want to get into a farrier/trimmer debate, but I would have a trimmer not necessarily to do the work, but to talk you through what they see, as I have found they see differently to a farrier. More knowledge is a good thing, and your current trim looks like a farrier trim, not that that is wrong, but it may be of interest to you to hear an alternate view as I think a trimmer would trim differently.

I use the Clean Trax if the hoof looks to be going off a little but I also scrub daily with a dry brush, and spray some nettex frog health on if anywhere is not immaculate.
Click to expand...

Guess what I've JUST ordered!! I bought formula 4 feet in Nov from local feed merchants. Found pro hoof as mentioned on here so have just ordered as formula 4 feet ran out last week.

She's not actually had a trim yet as there was no hoof to trim. Farrier has checked her regularly since I got her. Everyone in the yard speaks very highly of him and there is a good mix of shod and barefoot and the barefoot ones have lovely lovely feet. I've had a good talk with him about her and I'm happy to give him a chance. He has suggested boots before too and is very supportive about barefoot and we have ponies jumping stupidly big tracks and top level dressage horses on the yard, shod by him, both barefoot!!

I would like to meet some trimmers, fancy a day out somewhere to learn about barefoot. Aren't thunderbrooks running a day somewhere did I see in fb?

Thanks for the advice though I'm going to investigate trimmers. I'm totally ignorant of different methods etc!!
 
All the info on barefoot rehab and trimming is on Rockley Farm, a rehab centre for vet referrred horses, there is a huge amount of info on there.
The consensus is that when it comes to trimming, less is more.
Nic co wrote Feet First which is full of basic but essential information, I spent a lot of time reading through that to get things clear in my mind.
 
Bonkers2 said:
That is not logical, not sure OP mentioned insurance, but just holding off from X rays is going to reduce current vet fees, having X rays and finding nothing could be a waste of money, but if it needs to be done it won't be any more expensive in ten days time.
My thinking is that they are not clear where the problem is, so waiting a few weeks to see if it improves is one solution which costs nothing. Remember the splint may have started this off, or maybe something else. The feet, soles, frogs can only improve if OP is able to exercise.
Where are they to X-ray? if they don t find something, the next stage gets more technical and more expensive.
Click to expand...

Thank you bonkers for writing that so I didn't have to. We discussed X-rays today, obviously, but decided against it today as the only reaction we got was found her shoulders. I agree no foot no horse and I'm happy to X-ray in the future if the vet and farrier think we need to if it's going to guide their treatment in any way. I'm not one for doing unnecessary tests. He could have x-rayed both feet and scanned the splint today and got the money straight away. I wouldn't have said no if that's what they suggested. I totally think that you can make her more comfortable and maybe sort the lameness.

In my line of work we treat the patient, not the X-ray. If a (chest in my line of work) xray is not indicated we don't do it. If her feet are rebalanced and Physio sorts any signs she finds and thrush is effectively treated and she becomes sound then job done. I'm not one to subject her to radiation unless necessary. If necessary then fine.


Bonkers2 said:
Agree that minerals [and linseed and salt] will help hoof health. As long as there is not going to be damage, I would have her on a sachet or a bit more of Danilon overnight so you can long rein on tarmac without pain, assuming she is sensible. Riding on a soft surface is not going to do the job so well. I am sure the feet are going to change quite a lot, I really would not put shoes on until thrush and white line is improved, assuming it can be kept clean and so on. Quite a lot of things have happened, so event lines will appear. I'd hold off with X rays for a week or more till things settle down again.
Click to expand...

That makes complete sense thanks. The road by us is a little busy but she is very very sensible for a 5 year old. I'll long rein first round the yard I think and see how she is.
 
Midlifecrisis said:
I am sorry that the work up has not come up with things in black and white..poor Lottie. I read the replies and there seems to be lots of food for thought and avenues to pursue ..your plan seems sensible and I don't have any additional insights except perhaps taking very clear photos of Lottie showing current muscle and maybe videos of her moving in straight lines walk and trot...do the work with feet and feed and exercise and take comparison photos etc in a month/two months so that you can actually compare and contrast any changes and improvements.
Click to expand...

Great idea!!! I'll film the Physio with her tomorrow and any other bits.

The day was interesting, but frustrating and so very very cold. We were doing Burpies and star jumps to get warm while the nerve blocks were taking effect and shuttle running to the lorry and back!!!

Positives were she was IMPECCABLY behaved all day. Loaded and travelled well and I survived driving my friends little lorry for the first time. I was bricking it!!!

It was a fairly good experience for her and she was so glad to be home. I do love her to bits!!!
 
Bonkers2 said:
All the info on barefoot rehab and trimming is on Rockley Farm, a rehab centre for vet referrred horses, there is a huge amount of info on there.
The consensus is that when it comes to trimming, less is more.
Nic co wrote Feet First which is full of basic but essential information, I spent a lot of time reading through that to get things clear in my mind.
Click to expand...

I have been in the Rockley site and I follow their fb page. I didn't realise there was a book (is feet first a book?).

Thanks b
 
atlantis said:
I have been in the Rockley site and I follow their fb page. I didn't realise there was a book (is feet first a book?).

Thanks b
Click to expand...

Yes Feet First is a book, it recommends seaweed but that is out of date, otherwise all good stuff.
What I find of interest on Rockley are the slo mo videos, it helps so much to get your eye in on the walk, my favorite success story is ............. Dillon with wedges .......... lol
 
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If vet thinks hoof is unbalanced, personally I think a few X-rays of the hooves would have been a good starting point
 
So there is enough going on in those feet that is expect they might be the issue and then horse moving tensely causing the issues near shoulder.

I noticed you mention fat pads and given the White line stretching is there any chance she has Ems or other metabolic issue going on? Maybe not but thought worth mentioning.
 
wench said:
If vet thinks hoof is unbalanced, personally I think a few X-rays of the hooves would have been a good starting point
Click to expand...

Tbh I can't remember if he actually said that. My friend asked about shoes and he said you could to support and balance the foot. He only mentioned shoes when prompted, which I didn't do.

We've done the xray discussion lol. We'll do then if still required next week or the week after.
 
wench said:
If vet thinks hoof is unbalanced, personally I think a few X-rays of the hooves would have been a good starting point
Click to expand...

I really think this is a important thing to do sooner rather than later .
The outside of the foot can 'lie ' I had one horse where the outside of the foot was at odds with what was going on inside .
We trimmed the foot gradually ( keeping the horse BF )thinking all the time of the story inside , eight weeks later you could see the foot changing after three months the horse was shod to match the inside not the outside and he went back to work sound .
This horse needed shoes for working, his was a conformation issue further up,the leg.
 
I think it looks as though that flare will grow down. I'm not sure X-rays will tell you more than the foot already does - it's pretty sick :p and that palmar hoof is not able to work correctly atm at all. I'm not sure about boots and pads for getting more frog stimulation because it isn't something I know about other than it will likely take time and consistent regular walking work. I have a copy of feet first that an happy to lend out op. It is with a friend atm but can get it posted to you if you would like.
 
ester said:
So there is enough going on in those feet that is expect they might be the issue and then horse moving tensely causing the issues near shoulder.

I noticed you mention fat pads and given the White line stretching is there any chance she has Ems or other metabolic issue going on? Maybe not but thought worth mentioning.
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Yes thank you I discussed that with first vet. He thinks she almost def has it and doesn't think putting her through the test is necessary. No need starving her overnight when it's not going to affect the treatment. Wouldn't treat with metformin at this stage as she is very very unfit and needs exercise and that should make a big difference. She is already on the lowest sugar diet I can get her on but exercise is key.

I have posted before about Superfix supplement which my friend swears by to get rid of fat oads and the associated inflammation. It's very expensive but I am still considering it. Should have asked about it today. Didn't think!!
 
Sorry for posting in bits but on phone so keep going back through - shoes came off October? The EMS would the explain the flare - especially with that diet and that they might be taking longer to get right. IMO I would speak to someone who knows about dealing with compromised feet barefoot and appropriate booting. Has farrier been trimming frogs?

The trouble with exercise being the key is that her feet not be up to enough atm to make a difference. So it might be worth re thinking the metformin? While getting weight down long term
 
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Fatty had awful fat pads it took three years to shift them and he's a hunter doing a lot of hard graft in winter . I thought we would never shift them .
But we did he's a lean mean hunting machine now .
I used the feet first book ( minus the seaweed ) as the guide to how I feed him now .he does much the best on the forage plus performance balancers .
 
ester said:
I think it looks as though that flare will grow down. I'm not sure X-rays will tell you more than the foot already does - it's pretty sick :p and that palmar hoof is not able to work correctly atm at all. I'm not sure about boots and pads for getting more frog stimulation because it isn't something I know about other than it will likely take time and consistent regular walking work. I have a copy of feet first that an happy to lend out op. It is with a friend atm but can get it posted to you if you would like.
Click to expand...

That is very kind thank you, but I have literally just ordered a copy. There was only one left in stock so I just bought it. Shame there isnt a kindle version!! I could read it tonight!!!

The vet today did comment on the much better hoof that is growing down but didn't really comment on the state of her frogs etc. He did ask what I'd changed her diet to but didn't really comment on it at all.

She's on a small handful of Hifi molasses free, was on formula 4 feet but just ordered some pro hoof, linseed. Need to add salt to finalise that I think.

How much walking is good? I was doing 30 mins, almost every day, but it was in the school under the lights most of the time, until she was lame again at the weekend.

She's started off with a LOT of lunging on a relatively hard and really quite hard surface today!!
 
ester said:
Sorry for posting in bits but on phone so keep going back through - shoes came off October? The EMS would the explain the flare - especially with that diet and that they might be taking longer to get right. IMO I would speak to someone who knows about dealing with compromised feet barefoot and appropriate booting. Has farrier been trimming frogs?

The trouble with exercise being the key is that her feet not be up to enough atm to make a difference. So it might be worth re thinking the metformin? While getting weight down long term
Click to expand...

Yes shoes came off in October. I bought her 5th November. She passed a 5 stage getting that day. The vets words were she tried very hard to make her lame but didn't!!

You make another good point about the feet limiting the exercise. I'll discuss it again with the vets I think.

Tbh I could do with moving her to somewhere with fatty paddocks or where I can make a track. I wish I had my own land but with work it would be hard I need the help.

I need more info on boots definitely.
 
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