Low Hand Epidemic

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

You answer for other posters now Princess?

Plenty of videos of my riding on my blog, since you appear to mean me with your second paragraph too. Full of flaws and mostly ruined by my stage fright when being judged

And what is your issue with me here? Am I not allowed to comment on low hands because I don't ride as well as some other people? Are you suggesting that only people who ride perfectly themselves can ever spot a problem with other people's riding?

Not at all, I just saw another member being picked on with said snide remarks and then refered back to a previous experience on another forum

 

[cptrayes]

Not at all, I just saw another member being picked on with said snide remarks and then refered back to a previous experience on another forum

Whew that's a relief. I misread your post as picking on me because I don't ride as well as some other people on the forum and suggesting that I therefore had no right to comment on what I see as bad riding.

I'm so glad I misunderstood you there

 

[charlie76]

Whew that's a relief. I misread your post as picking on me because I don't ride as well as some other people on the forum and suggesting that I therefore had no right to comment on what I see as bad riding.

I'm so glad I misunderstood you there

Here we go again, uncalled comments on people's riding ability. How in earth can you tell how some one rides from a tiny picture and a snap shot in time?

 

[Moomin1]

Here we go again, uncalled comments on people's riding ability. How in earth can you tell how some one rides from a tiny picture and a snap shot in time?

I didn't read it that CPTrayes was implying anything derogatory towards her riding?

I think she merely observed low hands, and wondered what that poster's thoughts on the subject matter were.

On the subject, I started riding 24 years ago and was never taught the 'low hand' thing - it was always elbows bent and hands a wither's width apart, and never coming into contact with the horse or saddle. I can however now, see that low wide hands can be useful in encouraging stretching long and low in certain ways, but if I am correct in thinking what you are meaning CPT is the fixed hands down into 'side rein' position to haul the head in - then I would be horrified to think anybody is getting taught that?! Seriously, someone please tell me this isn't the case?!! :-O

 

[its_noodles]

Here we go again, uncalled comments on people's riding ability. How in earth can you tell how some one rides from a tiny picture and a snap shot in time?

well, nothing to do with riding ability, but if u zoooooooom in 3,000 times on that tiny picture, u might still see where the hands were...
just a tiny thought...

 

[charlie76]

I didn't read it that CPTrayes was implying anything derogatory towards her riding?

I think she merely observed low hands, and wondered what that poster's thoughts on the subject matter were.

On the subject, I started riding 24 years ago and was never taught the 'low hand' thing - it was always elbows bent and hands a wither's width apart, and never coming into contact with the horse or saddle. I can however now, see that low wide hands can be useful in encouraging stretching long and low in certain ways, but if I am correct in thinking what you are meaning CPT is the fixed hands down into 'side rein' position to haul the head in - then I would be horrified to think anybody is getting taught that?! Seriously, someone please tell me this isn't the case?!! :-O

I think the ' interesting avatar ' comment was def a dig . As did the owner of said avatar pic

 

[Moomin1]

I think the ' interesting avatar ' comment was def a dig . As did the owner of said avatar pic

Really?

I would have taken that as 'interesting' as interesting to see the style and interested to see what her thoughts were.

Maybe I am wrong then!

 

[cptrayes]

Seriously, someone please tell me this isn't the case?!! :-O

Unfortunately Moomin, quite a few contributors to the discussion have confirmed that it certainly is being taught, by quite a few trainers. Which explains. why I'm seeing it everywhere lately.

 

[Moomin1]

Unfortunately Moomin, quite a few contributors to the discussion have confirmed that it certainly is being taught, by quite a few trainers. Which explains. why I'm seeing it everywhere lately.

What, as in the 'low hands hauling the head in', not low hands allowing stretching down into contact? Seriously?!! That's shocking. I am actually genuinely taken aback about that. :-(

 

[brighthair]

I drop my hands, and I know I do it! I tip forwards when nervous and my hands come with me, or my hands go down and then I tip (vicious circle)
However they are always soft, I'm not a harsh rider, and the improvement in my position has been vast. But if someone saw me they would say I still drop my hands, which I do, now I'm conscious of it. But this is before and after

1001 things wrong with my position in this...

And now, yes I need more bend in my elbows, but my hands are higher and soft and forward (plus massive lower leg difference)

 

[Lolo]

Really?

I would have taken that as 'interesting' as interesting to see the style and interested to see what her thoughts were.

Maybe I am wrong then!

I don't know, having seen many people ripped to shreds for offering unasked for CC (often by the offerer of this 'C'C) I'd imagine the fairly strong rule of the forum where if it's not asked and it's not welfare, don't say it would have been stuck to...

Phrasing that could have been used if there had been a genuine interest in the poster's opinion is "What are your thoughts on this?". Although, the poster had just offered her own thoughts... How odd.

FWIW, I reckon low, still hands are much kinder on the horse than high, unsteady and grabbing hands using the mouth for stability... If your core strength isn't such that your seat and hands are independent I reckon you're better to not give the horse a reason to not trust the contact...

 

[Moomin1]

I drop my hands, and I know I do it! I tip forwards when nervous and my hands come with me, or my hands go down and then I tip (vicious circle)
However they are always soft, I'm not a harsh rider, and the improvement in my position has been vast. But if someone saw me they would say I still drop my hands, which I do, now I'm conscious of it. But this is before and after

1001 things wrong with my position in this...

And now, yes I need more bend in my elbows, but my hands are higher and soft and forward (plus massive lower leg difference)

See (I hope you don't mind me saying this), the first pic shows what I would class as the low hands 'hauling' position which I seriously hope isn't being taught, whereas the second pic I think is more of low and wide offering to stretch down position which I don't think is bad at all in most instances. Looks like a big improvement to me.

 

[brighthair]

Yes, the second photo was stretching down at the end of a lesson. The first photo is on a horse that head snatched and I didn't have lessons for a while. It is nerves that make me tip, but for years people have said sit up, until someone said "pick your hands up!" and then of course you sit up more

 

[JFTDWS]

FWIW, BH, I don't think you're "hauling" your horse's head in to his chest in either of those photos. Your hand position isn't perfect (neither's mine!) but it's not forced either.

 

[Moomin1]

FWIW, BH, I don't think you're "hauling" your horse's head in to his chest in either of those photos. Your hand position isn't perfect (neither's mine!) but it's not forced either.

I didn't say she was 'hauling' her horse's head in. I said that I class that hand position as the 'hauling' position. Straight arms, pinned to the withers in 'side rein' position.

 

[cptrayes]

FWIW, I reckon low, still hands are much kinder on the horse than high, unsteady and grabbing hands using the mouth for stability... If your core strength isn't such that your seat and hands are independent I reckon you're better to not give the horse a reason to not trust the contact...

I agree with you. The thread was prompted, though, by seeing rider after rider in affiliated preliminary and novice competitions riding very good horses. These people aren't beginners, they appear to have been taught to obtain a consistent head carriage by pinning their hands to act as side reins.

 

[brighthair]

I think there's two distinct camps here - the people that do it deliberately to pin the horses head in, and the people that either don't/do realise they are doing it and aren't doing it to "improve" an outline

 

[cptrayes]

I think there's two distinct camps here - the people that do it deliberately to pin the horses head in, and the people that either don't/do realise they are doing it and aren't doing it to "improve" an outline

True. You look like the latter nd you also look like you've improved a lot , you are much more stable in the second photo, and if your horse had a naturally higher set on neck, you'd have a perfect bend in your elbow to maintain the mouth to elbow unbroken line.

 

[JFTDWS]

I didn't say she was 'hauling' her horse's head in. I said that I class that hand position as the 'hauling' position. Straight arms, pinned to the withers in 'side rein' position.

I didn't say you did :rolleyes3:

 

[charlie76]

See (I hope you don't mind me saying this), the first pic shows what I would class as the low hands 'hauling' position which I seriously hope isn't being taught, whereas the second pic I think is more of low and wide offering to stretch down position which I don't think is bad at all in most instances. Looks like a big improvement to me.

in the first picture, yes your hands are too low and wide however you are not having a negative effect on the horse as you have next to no contact. horse looks to be the type to never work into thr contact over his back and if you were to ride him like pic two he would chuck his head about.

 

[brighthair]

in the first picture, yes your hands are too low and wide however you are not having a negative effect on the horse as you have next to no contact. horse looks to be the type to never work into thr contact over his back and if you were to ride him like pic two he would chuck his head about.

Very much so - he wouldn't work into the contact, and asking him resulted in violent head chucking
My riding mainly tries to aim on if I can't have a positive effect, at least have no effect!

 

[charlie76]

so in that case you rode him as well as you could using the position and method he would accept.
A more amenable ride will allow you to maintain a better contact and improve and change your whole position.
some times to get the best result the ideal goes out the window, even if its just temporary.

 

[Tnavas]

I used to write for a dressage judge that would get redder and redder as a test went on when riders did their free walk on a long rein, eventually she would splutter out "Wide, low hands DO NOT make a good free walk on a long rein"

People seem to think the lower and wider their hands the lower and longer their horses head and neck will become!

 

[soulfull]

Unfortunately it seems to be being taught by most of the instructors in my area
Just the same as to keep a horse on the outside track you pull back and hard on the outside rein

 

[Pigeon]

This might be better put onto a new thread, but I genuinely struggle with this and I admit that I probably default into see-saw hands. But it's because I'm not always clear what people mean, when they are asking you to move the bit in the horse's mouth e.g. having a conversation with the reins and other similar expressions.

I *think* they mean pulsing, squeezing the reins, or opening and closing the fingers, but not pulling back with the hands or elbows. I have asked one instructor and she showed me what she meant, but I still struggle to get this right.

If someone out there has a good way to explain, I'd love to hear it please!

I always thought the aim was to have still hands (but soft, following the movement) and then riding the horse into the contact? And then using half halts (using just the bottom finger on the rein) when needed, but not all the time.

Again, I've not had lessons in ages and this is just from watching and talking to other people who do well at dressage, so might be wrong!! My main failing is I have too light of a hold on the reins and they get longer and longer, so my hands get closer and closer to my body in order to maintain a contact!!

 

[blackhor2e]

I'm sorry you felt it was mean.

Your avatar and your post combined led me to believe that you thought low hands were correct, hence my response. It was not, of course, offensive if you did believe in low hands, it only becomes insulting if you don't.

Nice horse

Thank you CP, my perception of your comment was obviously wrong and no offence is taken - believe me I am the first to criticise my own position

 

[khalswitz]

I have been taught recently to lower my hands when jumping my horse. He tends to rush off, and can take a lap of a field to come back as he stick his head right up and tosses the head when I ask him to come back when jumping on grass. However when I sit in, lower my hands and maintain the contact almost with my hands towards my thighs, but with a longer rein, he responds and comes back. He is an exracer so I think having my hands low is just a different way of asking... Either way I'm one who carries my hands too high without enough elbow bend (think Frankenstein lol) when jumping, so I always try to think of lowering my hands.

 

[Tnavas]

I always thought the aim was to have still hands (but soft, following the movement) and then riding the horse into the contact? And then using half halts (using just the bottom finger on the rein) when needed, but not all the time.

Again, I've not had lessons in ages and this is just from watching and talking to other people who do well at dressage, so might be wrong!! My main failing is I have too light of a hold on the reins and they get longer and longer, so my hands get closer and closer to my body in order to maintain a contact!!

My instructor calls that 'Slippery rein disease' I suffer from that periodically.

 

[TheMule]

I always thought the aim was to have still hands (but soft, following the movement) and then riding the horse into the contact? And then using half halts (using just the bottom finger on the rein) when needed, but not all the time.

Phew, glad someone else doesnt think that wiggling the reins or vibrating the fingers is how to get a horse round. Still contact, leg to hand and half halting to balance. Flexions to improve lateral suppleness and the horse should seek the hand wherever it goes to maintain that constant feel, not back off it because it moves the bit everytime they dare to come slightly in front of the vertical

 

[cptrayes]

Thank you CP, my perception of your comment was obviously wrong and no offence is taken - believe me I am the first to criticise my own position

Well it was my perception of yours that was wrong first. You are too self critical if your avatars is typical of how your lovely horse goes. I have a soft spot for the dark ones, mine are both nearly black