Lozenge bits and contact ponderings

~ Clear Light ~

~ Clear Light ~

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I'm no bitting expert and I have always tended to use various KK or NS lozenge bits for babies (and upwards) for the usual reasons and they seem to have over taken French links in the popularity stakes for being better designed to accomodate the shape of the mouth and especially the tongue.

However I was talking to my GP trainer the other day about bits and she was saying some horses tend to sort of roll off them so the contact is never quite steady enough. You think its there but then they can drop behind it a bit, and she was saying that sometimes a French link is better as it gives them more of a fixed point. Of course you want some movement within the contact and not have it fixed solid, but I was just wondering what people thought? Has anyone changed from a lozenge type bit to a French link and why?
 
Sometimes with a fussy horse or one with a small mouth/large tongue, the lozenge can 'drop' down onto the tongue instead of ergonomically curving around it if that makes sense?

Millie was in a loosering lozenge and I put her back into a normal french link as she was more consistent into the contact with the plain french link.

Vinnie is very fussy and never settled with any of the NS/KK bits we tried him with and was always rolling his tongue up, like he was trying to lift the lozenge out of the way.
He is in a Hippus now and so much happier.

I've got quite a few NS/KK bits but thinking about it, all of my horses over the last few years have gone back to 'normal' bits which worked better for them.
 
Really interesting, I guess it just depends on the type of horse and what they prefer.

Ive been through so many bits with Jups that i've lost count - the only bit he is happy in is a vulcanite straight bar eggbutt snaffle. Hates everything else spends his time throwing his head, trying to get his tongue over the bit etc. When I talked to my EDT about it (Bob Livock) he said that all horses will naturally be more comfortable in a straight bar than any other bit because it only puts even pressure on the palate/tongue whereas you get the nutcracker effect with most other bits. He said some horses will just object to bits more strongly than others depending on how sensitive they are in the mouth.

Bloss has always gone in a KK ultra, never had her in anything different. I did try her in a myler once and she hated it so went back to the KK!
 
I switched mine back into a french link and she is happier in in that than a lozenge. I think it just takes up less space in her mouth.
 
Interesting topic. I have been trying to find something else for my boy who is currently ridden in a kk lozenge bit. My trainer rides him in a pelham every so often- a rubber straight bar and he is a different horse- he is so easy to ride forward and he really moves into the contact with just the lightest contact on the curb rein. However he needs a snaffle for dressage and I assumed the KK lozenge which suited my mare so perfectly would also work with him. He hates it. He has a biggish mouth and I find he is constantly sticking out his tongue and is very mouthy in it. He has had his teeth done so i know thats not the issue. However he either leans on the bit heavily or is star gazing and not going forward at all. He makes it all very hard work even my trainer has said so. Currently pondering what next I can try so will watch this thread with interest!
 
elliefiz - try a straight bar rubber snaffle, so the same as the pelham without the curb (basically) I would go for an eggbutt so fixed rings as he obviously liked the stability of the pelham.
 
Tempi said:
elliefiz - try a straight bar rubber snaffle, so the same as the pelham without the curb (basically) I would go for an eggbutt so fixed rings as he obviously liked the stability of the pelham.
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Tempi Ive just been online shopping looking at the Nathe rubber straight bar- this thread reminded me i needed to get him one! It seems such a simplistic bit I'm convincing myself that sometimes simple works and he might not need a myler or a kk or any other 100 quid bit! A rubber snaffle is dressage legal right?
 
Tempi thats really interesting- my boy was broken with a straight bar happy mouth, which he was just about ok with, but didn't really take a contact so moved him onto a lozenge which he hated!! Really threw me as my last one went so well in his. We now have him in a flexible rubber snaffle, don't feel as mean in asking him to take the contact when its a bit of floppy rubber, but now wondering if he genuinely prefers it because of the more even pressure?
 
elliefiz said:
Tempi Ive just been online shopping looking at the Nathe rubber straight bar- this thread reminded me i needed to get him one! It seems such a simplistic bit I'm convincing myself that sometimes simple works and he might not need a myler or a kk or any other 100 quid bit! A rubber snaffle is dressage legal right?
Click to expand...

I tried expensive bits before going back to the vulcanite i now use which cost me £7 off ebay.... yes rubber snaffle is BD legal.

zizz said:
Tempi thats really interesting- my boy was broken with a straight bar happy mouth, which he was just about ok with, but didn't really take a contact so moved him onto a lozenge which he hated!! Really threw me as my last one went so well in his. We now have him in a flexible rubber snaffle, don't feel as mean in asking him to take the contact when its a bit of floppy rubber, but now wondering if he genuinely prefers it because of the more even pressure?
Click to expand...

Your youngster sounds like mine, he was broken in a straight bar aswell and has always only been happy in that ever since :)
 
My young ex-racer is a funny sod when it comes to his mouth.
Can't abide a Mullen mouth (tongue over the bit)
He can't stand the action of a single jointed or a French link bit (chucks his head around)
I tried him in a loose ring lozenge snaffle & he dropped right behind the contact. For him it was if there was too much 'play' & movement in his mouth so he just, like your trainer says rolled off the contact.
However for him, putting him in a NS lozenge with a full cheek was the answer. The fixed sides, seemed to hold the bit so he could accept it yet the lozenge gave him room for his toungue.
 
Tempi said:
Your youngster sounds like mine, he was broken in a straight bar aswell and has always only been happy in that ever since :)
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I remeber taking him to his first lesson with my dressage trainer and within 15 minutes she went and got a rubber snaffle for him from the tack room whilst berating me for not realising a happy mouth snaffle was far too harsh for his soft mouth!!!

I suppose if it has always worked why try and change it?
 
elliefiz said:
Tempi Ive just been online shopping looking at the Nathe rubber straight bar- this thread reminded me i needed to get him one! It seems such a simplistic bit I'm convincing myself that sometimes simple works and he might not need a myler or a kk or any other 100 quid bit! A rubber snaffle is dressage legal right?
Click to expand...

I've got a nathe if you want to try?

Vinnie doesn't get on with straight bar bits apparently so it's only been used for one lunge session and he is now back in his Hippus, which is like a cross between a straight bar and a single joint ;)
 
Madam hates lozenged bits and goes in either a French link or a nathe straight bar. She sits behind lozenged bits looking pretty but won't take it forward. Her French link is a myler, and she also goes in a straight bar nathe Pelham too...
 
Wow thank you so much everyone, I've found every single answer really interesting and helpful.

PS yes do report back what you find.

I might try Charmeur in one too. Like KatB said I feel he could take more of a secure contact and I'm wondering if his NS Team Up is too much for his little mouth. At least for once it won't break the bank.
 
~ Clear Light ~ said:
I'm no bitting expert and I have always tended to use various KK or NS lozenge bits for babies (and upwards) for the usual reasons and they seem to have over taken French links in the popularity stakes for being better designed to accomodate the shape of the mouth and especially the tongue.

However I was talking to my GP trainer the other day about bits and she was saying some horses tend to sort of roll off them so the contact is never quite steady enough. You think its there but then they can drop behind it a bit, and she was saying that sometimes a French link is better as it gives them more of a fixed point. Of course you want some movement within the contact and not have it fixed solid, but I was just wondering what people thought? Has anyone changed from a lozenge type bit to a French link and why?
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I found with my yongster. He had such an inconsistent contact with a lozenge, he was continually playing with it. I sold my Team Up, used a single jointed german snaffle for a few months to stop him playing with the bit and am back in an old fashioned plain French link, which he is great in.
 
I went from loose ring lozenge NS to the NS Demi-Anky which is a single joint but shaped to not hit the roof of the mouth, both horses were instantly nicer in the contact, stiller and softer in their mouth and improved at taking the contact forward. I'm waiting on the eggbut version coming up in the right size on ebay so I can try it!

IMO the lozenge loose ring bits can sometimes have a bit too much movement and I can see why that could be an issue when you want a horse to trust and accept a contact.

I've just swapped OH's horse out of his lozenge bit into a french link loose ring, but found an eggbut french link in the depths of my tack room last night so planning to try that as he is a bugger for getting his tongue over the bit...!
 
here's another aspect of it... while I love the Sprenger lozenges (have various weights and thicknesses) my trainer is pretty much adamant that you cannot get a true communication with a double joint, he wants a single joint because then 1 side of the bit is absolutely still, while the other side is being moved by the hand (vibration, squeeze, lightening, whatever of rein) - you should only ever be actively moving/using 1 hand at a time with a snaffle. with a double jointed bit he says you get this sort of baggy, imprecise communication, because of the extra link, so the centre joint moves on the tongue when you might not want it to. Does that make sense?
Spanish Riding School of Vienna horses are all apparently started in single-joint full-cheeks (or fulmers, I'm not sure) and drop nosebands, and this is the combination my trainer swears by too.
 
Another convert away from lozenges! I had my boy in kk and verbindend bits and he just sat behind the contact and refused to take it forward.

It was Hilary Vernons advice that made me look elsewhere. She said that horses with active mouths need the most static bit you can find. I tried a straight bar eggbutt but he wouldnt go forward at all in it. Tried a big rubber eggbutt snaffle and it was like having a new horse. Mouth quieter and actually taking me forward, a revelation.

Sayiing that my mare with a very quiet mouth loves her KK!
 
kerilli said:
here's another aspect of it... while I love the Sprenger lozenges (have various weights and thicknesses) my trainer is pretty much adamant that you cannot get a true communication with a double joint, he wants a single joint because then 1 side of the bit is absolutely still, while the other side is being moved by the hand (vibration, squeeze, lightening, whatever of rein) - you should only ever be actively moving/using 1 hand at a time with a snaffle. with a double jointed bit he says you get this sort of baggy, imprecise communication, because of the extra link, so the centre joint moves on the tongue when you might not want it to. Does that make sense?
Spanish Riding School of Vienna horses are all apparently started in single-joint full-cheeks (or fulmers, I'm not sure) and drop nosebands, and this is the combination my trainer swears by too.
Click to expand...

I really liked being back in my single joint with Coco and now only use an eggbut, just too much vague movement otherwise. Much cheaper bits also, have bought my last 2 bits, bothe french link, one curved eggbut and one cheek snaffle for less than a tenner each.
 
Intresting thread!!

When I got my new boy I was told he went in a loose ring NS (with a lozenge) however after he had settled in at home and we are out jumping I really wasnt convinced this was the best bit for him becuase I could get him to take up the contact. Having trialled a few and spoken to the girl who broken him i put him a happy mouth single jointed eggbutt and he is a super star!!
 
My horse is very settled in his mouth in general, to the point of being a bit too insensitive, I also swapped from a kk to an egg but FL (bridoon) and felt an improvement, although far less than you would with a horse sensitive in the mouth. Might even try a single link bridoon at some stage
 
I've stayed with a sprenger lozenge but moved from loose ring to eggbutt. The contact is so much more confident and consistent now.
 
Interesting thread. Mine has a very very fussy mouth (& has had since he was backed - don't think it's me, but then again I haven't 'cured' it in the 12 years I've owned him!). To some extent if he's really 'with' you it quietens, but doesn't stop completely.

I have a VERY impressive collection of snaffles for a one horse owner - double, single, lozenge, french link, full cheek, no cheeks, eggbut or loose ring, you name it, I've tried it. All to no avail. He was broken in a happy mouth straight bar. I know at one point I did try it again and disregarded it for some reason, but after reading this I might dig it out.

I've never tried him in a really thick rubber bit as I've always assumed he has too much flesh (gums, tongue - which he does have a lot of) to accommodate it, but maybe it's worth a go - who knows!

I'm off to try the happy mouth. I'm blaming you lot if I end up in Kent or Norfolk......
 
the really thick rubber bit is weird - some just love the fat gummyness of it, some make it very clear that they don't.
nathe is always a good thing to try too, for the ones who want it thinner and not so blocky, but still non-metal and bendy.
another option is the Myler 32 mouthpiece, which is basically a central tube with sides that move independently, but the joints in the mouthpiece don't move at all, so it's nearly like a mullen. weird, but some horses love it, and no danger of pinching.
totally agree with you about the collection Alfami, I've never dared count my snaffles..!
 
Alfami, my mare was very similar, and I found the thinnest bit I could (a mylee French link) with fixed cheeks, and wrapped it in latex...it solved her fussiness and she is generally very good in the mouth now :)
 
Well, I feel you guys may have just shed some light on my bitting problems...

J is currently in a NS Verbindend but sits behind it. Have tried her in all kinds of lozenge snaffles but she's actually always been happiest in the double - could it be because she prefers straight bar? I have a single jointed snaffle in her size, I will try that and look for a Nathe on eBay. I would be so happy to at last find her a snaffle she likes!
 
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