Lucinda Green: steeplechase would make eventing safer!

Not so sure about the steeplechase phase but think the long format though tougher in some ways on the horses was far better - the horses HAD to be really fit to compete. Honestly think a lot of accidents happen because horses aren't fit enough. The roads & tracks also warmed the horse up really well.
 
pearcider said:
ohhh maybe TBs will become fashionable (again) rather than the new WB eventes....
Click to expand...

My dumblood does his best to try and fit in. :o


I think it would certainly sort out the men and the boys, you would soon discover if your horse was cut out for it or not!

*Presses like button* :D
 
I do think it will make people rethink breeding though...Ive just brought a WB x depending on her stride length would determine how far she would go if it was long format as she is not as agile as a TB or light ISH

I agree I think people would work 'harder' to get ready for a 3day, although I have always been taught to get ready for a 3 day as if I was doing long formate so the horse is fit. And warm up in intervals so really its not too much different to having long format except there is not as much risk in involved as there is in the SC.
 
I personally would love if it was reintroduced. I used to get the most unbelievable buzz from it which I really miss!!! It also helped put both horse and rider a really positive frame of mind so to be honest I don't think I've ever ridden as well x.c. as I did after chasing.

It was also fantastic for educating youngsters as it really taught them to gallop and cover ground. They learnt to jump out of their stride and at speed rather than being set up all the time. Even if they did make mistakes, the fences were very forgiving.

However, horses have never been my profession and I can see how long format events are not commercially practical for pro's. Fewer runs make it more difficult to keep sponsors and owners happy. It's also difficult to achieve the same level of results if you only have one horse as you'll only be able to get two or three runs in a season.

This said, probably one of my favourite memories was riding the final straight of Punchestown Racecourse flat out in front of the massive grandstand having jumped around the MASSIVE chase course! Didn't matter that the stand was empty!
 
I am actually quite bored of all these debates about long format vs short format. Long format has gone and we have to all get over it and move on. Also am very fed up with the debate about TBs vs WB as frankly not much difference between them all. I am a fan of a good horse and do not care what its breeding is. A 4* horse still has to gallop now.

Steeplechase is fun but there were a lot of breakdowns during it, the ground could be terrible and not all horses benefitted from it. Adding steeplechase would only be for 3 days and so actually the majority of riders who would most benefit would not actually ride steeplechase. Riders should take acount for themselves and get off their lazy backsides to improve. Get proper training, go hunting, go to the gallops, hire some chase fences off a trainer, practise xc as much as possible and get fit. It does not take a genius to mix up the above and get better.
 
LEC said:
Steeplechase is fun but there were a lot of breakdowns during it.
Click to expand...

As far as I am aware, (and I'm more than open to being proved wrong) the break down rate is no better or worse now that we have switched to short format. Yes, the wear and tear on a horse is probably lower now but as long as a "long format" eventer was managed correctly it was no more likely to break down than any modern event horse. When the short format was originally introduced, comparitive vetinary reports were done at both the Rolex in Kentucky (LF) and Athens (SF) and it was found that the LF horses actually had lower heart rates coming in off the course and shorter recovery times.

LEC said:
The ground could be terrible.
Click to expand...

The ground can be terrible at any event from a local unaff to Badminton! At a 3 day conditions *generally* tend to be better due to the money spent (of course there are exceptions). I never encountered a bad chase track but had I, I simply would not have run like at any other event.

LEC said:
Not all horses benefitted from it.
Click to expand...

Of course, every horse is different and not every horse was suited to it but in my opinion, those that didn't run better as a result are the exception rather than the rule.

LEC said:
Adding steeplechase would only be for 3 days and so actually the majority of riders who would most benefit would not actually ride steeplechase.
Click to expand...

Riders from one star up still benefit hugely from it and bearing in mind that 2 star seems to be the bogey level in terms of serious accidents, surely it would be of benefit to this level?


LEC said:
Riders should take acount for themselves and get off their lazy backsides to improve. Get proper training, go hunting, go to the gallops, hire some chase fences off a trainer, practise xc as much as possible and get fit. It does not take a genius to mix up the above and get better
.
Click to expand...

Finally, I've been fortunate enough to train with some of the best, I hunt at least once a week during the winter, I have ride out P2Pers for a neighbour, would describe myself as pretty experienced and fit but still believe that steeplechase hugely benefited my XC riding.
 
I do not see how riding steeplechase twice/three times a year during a 3 day will make a huge difference? It should not change your training at home.
I am not sure why there are more falls at 2* and have not really watched enough of this particular level to have thoughts about it.
 
I do think that LG has a very valid point here; there is something very special and unique about going cross country at a three day having done a steeplechase beforehand. The cross country round is just completely different, i can't quite describe it, I think its largely because you and the horse get your eye in and achieve a much better flow, energy and rhythym and 'togetherness'. A few people /horses dont get it at all; but most do.

You could argue that you can achieve the above without the steeplechase; but the feeling is just not quite the same. Doing the steeplechase at home would alsonnot quite be the same.
So yes, I think the steeplechase is/was fundamental for really setting horse and rider up for the proper thing.
 
When I've watched 2*, some of the near misses or ungainly jumps that I've seen hasn't been because the horse isn't fit enough or scopey enough. It sometimes looks like the rider rides a little backwards - not so much the pros but people going round a 2* for the first time - they sometimes look a little anxious about the fences and fiddle a lot going in. Perhaps the point about the steeple chase is to get the rider's blood up and get them going forward boldly at their fences, while giving the horse the confidence to go forward.
 
The big risk for eventing is rotational falls, and these (to me) seem to be from riders being too brave rather than too backward. Cannot see how galloping over birch before you start will help that one.

To me the biggest safety regulator in Eventing is the one day format, and compulsory retirement at 24 non time SJ penalties
 
seabiscuit, having done both, I disagree, I think you can get exactly the same feeling of 'togetherness' at a one day, and at short format.
I totally agree with what LG says about getting "into the groove", but I think it can be done in xc warm up by just getting a good forward rhythm and aiming at the fences, and letting the horse work it out for himself a few times...
BUT I do think s/c was useful, and taught both horse and rider very valuable things.
I think the 'chase used to be too long and too fast though, for anything not TB or almost-TB. I don't miss it at all in that respect. I think horses are lasting longer nowadays because they aren't having to be trained (for the 'chase) and competed at close-to top speed on the 'chase. Certainly the 'chases I did on my 7/8 TBs were at close to their top cruising speed, and that was hard on them, especially on bad ground for 4-4.5 minutes. I was very glad when it all switched to short format, must admit.
 
Having competed at both, I can definately say that the feeling of the SC was the best and definately set my "jack the lad" 7/8th TB up well for the cross country. At a one day the first 4 fences were an arguement and the SC meant we started in tune from the first fence (and yes I would try to settle him in the warm-up).
However that was all well and good when I worked evenings, we could box to gallops every week, school over chase fences when ever needed (boxing 45mins each way). Plus going to my dressage trainer and SJ lessons/comps. Now I work full time, I don't have time to box and go every few days, I'm now competing on a WBx who is very happy at doing interval training in our neighbours field. If the long format came back - I just don't have the time to have a horse fit enough or schooled enough to compete safely and I believe it will become more eliteist than it already is.
 
LEC said:
I do not see how riding steeplechase twice/three times a year during a 3 day will make a huge difference? It should not change your training at home.
I am not sure why there are more falls at 2* and have not really watched enough of this particular level to have thoughts about it.
Click to expand...

It doesn't change my training at home - I firmly believe that horses should be three day fit regardless of whether they have to chase or not. However, riding steeplechase does have a large educational value - it's a bit like saying theres no point in going for 2 or 3 lessons with a top instructor. You can take alot from a focused session which you can apply to the way you ride on a daily basis. As steeplechasing encouraged more forward riding and taught horses to jump out of their stride, a few sessions of this a year benefitted all aspects of cross country riding.

I agree with seabiscuit - I struggle to recreate the same feeling in the warm-up of a 3 day now. I think its because there are so many other factors to take into consideration - on phases A, B, and C it was only ever you and your horse so it was easier to focus and there were less outside distractions to contend with. Of course, I've successfully adapted because I've had too but its just never quite the same!

Keysoe, rotational falls which cause serious injury are generally caused by riders not riding forward enough. It is rare that a rotational will occur when a horse approaches a fence too quickly and even if it does, the rider is envariably thrown clear.

However I do agree, like Kerilli and Barney that there were drawbacks to the long format and recognise that ultimately it is not commercially viable for either competitors or events. Its a shame to see it go but I can see why the change was necessary and we're unlikely to see a rethink of it any time soon.
 
I'm not really in a position to comment with any confidence as I've only gone upto Novice and done one Unaff long format 3 day however hers's my twopennysworth! I think the suggestion of offering it as a warm up is a good middle ground. As LG says in the interview all the 3/4* have the space, they were doing it before the short format after all. Why not give each rider a designated slot say 45 mins before their XC time? Those that felt it helped them could use it but it wouldn't need to alter the current competition format, those that didn't want it could just opt out. That would let the riders vote with their feet and as far as I can see wouldn't vastly differ in terms of wear and tear to the exisiting XC warm up, as it seems that LG was saying it was the A and C phase were more deterimental to longevity.
 
Long format is gone and will not be coming back. I do not see how 4 mins of galloping round steeplechase followed by a 10 min break then going xc is going to change eventing safety. The types of falls that are occuring are different to the past as are the designs of fences because things have moved on. People have got better, lower levels have been opened up and the challenges are different. I am not saying that steeplechase does not help you have a great round for some people it will but the argument is about safety. I actually think bringing back SC and nothing else would be completely detrimental to a lot of riders and horses. Safety in eventing should be improved across the board and if you looked at the numbers of people competing at 3 day FEI it is neglible that the time and effort it would involve would be worth it.
 
LEC it appears that you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one!

As mentioned I realise that unfortunately long format does not have a place in modern eventing as it is not a financially viable proposition.

You mention that "the types of falls that are occuring are different to the past as are the designs of fences because things have moved on." The types of fall have resulted in an increased level of fatalities so perhaps the new design of fences isn't necessarily a good thing? Perhaps we need to go back to the old style of track that encourages bold brave riding?

With regards to people getting better, I don't necessarily think thats the case! The likes of Lucinda Green, Ginny Elliot and Ian Stark were every bit as brilliant as the William Fox Pitts, Olly Townend etc. I actually think in some ways the standard of riding has probably dropped slightly as the sport is now more open and accessible than ever but this is not necessarily a bad thing.

Finally, it is my opinion that safety would be improved by encouraging more forward riding at every level. Steeplechasing at a 3 day is one mechanism which would facilitate this. It can also be encouraged through hunting, riding out chasers, training etc but the benefit of the long format meant that practicing forward riding on a regular basis was a mandatory element of upper level eventing.
 
It was a most interesting interview but I am not entirely convinced. Looking back to the 1980,s there was a far greater similarity betwean the cross country and the steeplechase . far more good galloping fences but fences are far more technical now.Steeplechase jockeys ride at a fence very differently and I was a bit puzzled about "putting a short stride in " before a steeplechase fence.Not somthing I would advise at a true racing speed,but admittedly the event steeplechase is a fair bit slower. Lucinda made many very good comments regarding wearing out young horses and so forth. For a professional rider who understands how fit a horse should be ,surely this is correct. But I seriously doubt that too many amateurs at the lower levels understand this . Possibly the point is,not that they do do these phases but that they and their rider need to be FIT ENOUGH to be able to do them.
 
Having only competed to Novice level, but done 3-long format 3DEs many years ago, I found at the very first one that I did, my horses went xc much better after the extended "warm up" of the r&t and sc than they ever did at a one day. From that moment on at a one day, if there was sufficient time, I always did a minimum of 30 mins warm up for the xc with a short period of trot work, a couple of minutes of fast gallop followed by a gradual wind down to a "rest" period and then a short sharp warm up again before setting off xc - and I found that if I was able to do this they always went better.

My 14 year old daughter did a BE100 3DE - long format - this year and loved it and also learnt a lot from it especially about getting the pony really fit - although I have to say that on a 14.2hh pony (not a blood type pony either), a 3-minute sc at 600m/min was a tall order but one that they did manage almost spot on and both learnt a lot from it about galloping and jumping from a much faster rhythm than usual. However, it is not something that I would necessarily want a young horse to do early in its career.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top