Ludger Beerbaum rapping/poling/'touching'

[ElleSkywalker]

I have seen a very 'well respected' frequent appearer on H&C TV Fellow of the BHS rapping a friend's event horse. At the time I was young and naive and couldn't believe what I was seeing so said nothing. I'd hate to see what she does behind closed doors as this was in public view.

 

[Caol Ila]

It was well-known that George Morris, the once-Chef d'Equipe of the US Equestrian Team, rapped his horses. Some horse people were horrified, but most of the US hunter/jumper community shrugged it off, and for decades, he was one of the most highly-decorated h/j trainers in the country. It was the sex with underage boys that got him in the end. What a guy.

 

[Jayzee]

Unfortunately I think it is much more common than would be thought. Based on what I've seen and heard from people in the showjumping world. Rapping is just the tip of the iceberg there are a range of different barbaric devices used to make the horse make a better shape/ jump cleaner/ scope ect. Horrendous

 

[RachelFerd]

It's an ethical minefield. I've never witness a horse being rapped/poled/touched - I know that it can be done incredibly badly and ruin a horse for life. I also kind of believe that there is probably a way of doing it that isn't inherently damaging and is about improving proprioception, using a light touch and very good timing. But I've never witnessed it being done and so I'm thinking on a theoretical level, in the same way that using a cane to touch the legs of a horse in piaffe is general accepted as a reasonably ethical technique. Am I making excuses... not sure. Am I going to start doing it myself to my own horses, or letting someone do it to my own horses? Absolutely not.

But it's a murky world - I often jump over square showjumping poles - that was a subject of argument on this form a couple of months ago. Lots of people were unhappy about the potential for harm jumping over square poles. For me this allowing the horse to make mistakes and learn from them to improve proprioception... but to others it is cruel.

In a world of lighter and lighter showjumping poles it does get increasingly difficult for horses to learn to be careful over the jumps themselves...

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I know that this is a very naive thing to say but it's just gut wrenching that people can't just enjoy horses for what they are and what they can naturally do.
Why does the human race always have to take something beautiful and 'engineer' it until it's a shadow of it's former self.. the countryside, dogs, horses, water courses, the eco system...

 

[tristar]

I know that this is a very naive thing to say but it's just gut wrenching that people can't just enjoy horses for what they are and what they can naturally do.
Why does the human race always have to take something beautiful and 'engineer' it until it's a shadow of it's former self.. the countryside, dogs, horses, water courses, the eco system...

with you 100 per cent here

 

[tristar]

but jumping is not piaffe

jumping is a huge effort with a rider on board, confidence in their own sense of judgement is everything, how easy it must be to destroy that, and cause them to land awkwardly, not good for the legs or back

 

[RachelFerd]

but jumping is not piaffe

jumping is a huge effort with a rider on board, confidence in their own sense of judgement is everything, how easy it must be to destroy that, and cause them to land awkwardly, not good for the legs or back

But the devil's advocate position here (and this is NOT because I agree with the actions) is that:

1. is this any different to deliberately causing a horse to hit a rail (eg. deliberately missing it to a big upright, using a diagonal pole across the top of an oxer, using square poles, using solid XC fences so horse 'feels' it) [I think the answer is yes but is hard to quantify exactly where you draw the line...]

2. if this is as widespread amongst the top echelons of showjumping as we suspect it might be, then there must be an argument someone/somewhere that you could make that it is improving the judgement of horses and isn't destroying their technique, if done well.

Simple solution for me would to place an outright ban on using this technique. But what else should we be banning? Where does one draw a line? Having horses in sport does lead to some extremely murky distinctions between acceptable and not. We're all used to the arguments we use for carrying/using a whip or wearing spurs... but are these not artificial means of improving performance too?

 

[ihatework]

but jumping is not piaffe

jumping is a huge effort with a rider on board, confidence in their own sense of judgement is everything, how easy it must be to destroy that, and cause them to land awkwardly, not good for the legs or back

Actually, I think they are very comparable. Piaffe takes a huge effort for a horse to do, especially with a rider on top (as does jumping).

In this post I’m not referring to rapping or ‘poling’ of an LB video definition.

I can completely see merit in the very skilled use of a cane/schooling whip in the training/education of a jumping horse. But the active part of that statement is ‘very skilled’. I’ve never seen it done but it’s something I’d like to observe for interest/learning.

Personally, I prefer to allow horses to think for themselves and learn from their own mistakes, but then I’m an eventer at heart rather than a sj, and they are different disciplines. I don’t like tricking horses. My ‘favourite’ way to encourage cleaner jumping (other than correct systematic strengthening and training obv), is the use of scaffold poles as ump poles. Heavy, smooth but make a lovely sound if the horses hit them.

 

[Goldenstar]

Lots of horses who are a bit casual can be sharpened up by putting empty cans those one about 90 cms on their sides under the fences .
The noise of the pole falling does the trick .
I don’t think that’s unethical as long as the horse is in a position where it can adjust its self to clear the jump, by that I mean the canter needs to be good enough until the horse can produce three good canters you need to be training and doing pole work .

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Latest FN statement below. I ran it through Google translate because lazy and I think it still makes enough sense that you get the idea of what was said.

Information on how the FN dealt with the RTL contribution from January 11, 2022
First result of internal review of video sequences and further steps
Warendorf (fn-press). Following the broadcast of a television report about alleged events at Ludger Beerbaum's riding facility, the TV broadcaster RTL has now made a multi-minute compilation of various video sequences available to the FN. So far, the FN had only been shown a few seconds of short and pixelated scenes on one occasion. The location and people involved could not be identified. The FN has now checked the longer, non-pixelated compilation to see whether the scenes shown correspond to the description of touching that is formulated in the Guidelines for Riding and Driving Volume 2. "In an initial evaluation of the scenes, we come to the conclusion that parts of the documented events clearly do not correspond to our description of the touching. For example, a backswing can be seen,

With regard to association regulatory procedures, the FN is now further examining whether the allegations of a violation of the Performance Examination Regulations (LPO) result from the images. Concrete actions are described in the LPO ( §920 LPO ) and only these can be substantiated by the FN with a disciplinary measure. In addition to the question of whether such actions exist, it is also examined who the acting persons are.

The Disciplinary Commission of the FN is responsible for regulatory procedures. The Disciplinary Commission is an honorary body made up of independent legal experts. At the end of a disciplinary procedure, the Disciplinary Commission decides whether a violation has been proven and whether a disciplinary measure is imposed. A disciplinary measure can be, for example, a fine or an exclusion from participation in tournaments, i.e. a ban.

State proceedings by the public prosecutor's office or veterinary authorities for a possible violation of the Animal Welfare Act are independent of the association's regulatory proceedings. The FN drew the public prosecutor's attention to the television report last week.

The video material provided by RTL also shows scenes from a rural horse show. These are also currently being reviewed to determine whether regulatory procedures need to be initiated.

Link: https://www.pferd-aktuell.de/news/a...er-fn-mit-dem-rtl-beitrag-vom-11.-januar-2022

 

[bouncing_ball]

They're fitted so at a certain point within the motion of the horse jumping pressure is applied, which they react to.

What point in jumping motion? Timed so lift legs higher? Very odd.,

 

[LEC]

What point in jumping motion? Timed so lift legs higher? Very odd.,

Yes, it encourages better technique. Usually at the top of the point of the jump. Eventers use them a lot. You can always tell as have hind boots on and no tendon boots. They don’t work on front legs just hinds. Weighted boots also used to be used a fair bit. Properception. Put them on just before you go in the ring and the horse tries harder behind.

 

[Asha]

I just cant see why in a supposed educated/progessive society that anyone could think this type of technique is acceptable.

So what we are saying is the reward for the horse jumping the fence is to be touched/tapped/hit (call it whatever you will). Its so dangerous, the horse is air born, and his balance could easily be affected as he reacts to an unexpected touch. Completely different to a dressage horse being tapped for piaffe, that horse isnt going to fall in a heap.
This does happen. It happened to mine, and we lost him. ( for clarity i wasnt aware this was going to happen, found out afterwards )

 

[YorkshireLady]

its 1990 again and Paul Schockemole!

Have to say it is not just SJ but also eventing as well...and as others have said you can usually tell a horse that has had this done repeatedly....

but also its not all SJ and not all eventers who would do this!!

 

[Rocky159]

Apparently ok under german rules?

https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/ludger-beerbaum-accused-of-poling-horses-in-german-tv-expose

https://www.rtl.de/cms/ludger-beerb...kandal-um-deutschen-reitstar-auf-4897933.html

There are rumblings about other show jumpers in my neck of the woods and their "methods" of training. Of course poor behavior and training happens everywhere and across all disciplines, it's just more tolerated in some places. Or no one wants to question the "big name" rider and just ignores it, or doesn't get involved with them. The "it's not my problem" mentality.

As for the FN, ehh, they certainly could update themselves on a variety of things, but hopefully with some pressure from the FEI, they'll reach a reasonable conclusion. We'll see.

gosh, I thought this had died out 40 years ago. Can’t believe it still goes on. They also used to put spikes/hedgehog skins on the poles. Sick. Should be prosecuted.

 

[Ambers Echo]

It was well-known that George Morris, the once-Chef d'Equipe of the US Equestrian Team, rapped his horses. Some horse people were horrified, but most of the US hunter/jumper community shrugged it off, and for decades, he was one of the most highly-decorated h/j trainers in the country. It was the sex with underage boys that got him in the end. What a guy.

He was so arrogant and felt so untouchable, that he rapped his horses at demos!! Mind you he was right to feel safe doing that as no one ever did anything. Perhaps these days he’d have been filmed and outed.

I do think there is a difference between using heavier poles, or tricky fences and letting the horse make an error and learn from that and deliberately punishing them despite jumping the jump well. Dolly rarely had a pole and when she did she jumped better afterwards. So we were always quite happy if she knocked a fence warming up. But that was her learning from her own mistakes and becoming better at judging fences which meant she became more and more consistent and confident over time. In fact even with a genuine error we always took things back a step or 2 in training to rebuild her confidence. I kept a mental tally of positive jumping experiences adding to the 'bank of confidence' and negative ones taking away from the 'bank'. We made sure that 'bank' was always in credit.

I think it’s unfair and unethical to set a horse up to fail no matter what they do. Plus I think that even if it does improve technique, it will often be at the expense of confidence. So it's completely misguided. I imagine there are some very bold horses who stay confident and improve technique with rapping, but how many actually instead become wary or fearful and actually get worse over time.

I don’t think it’s necessarily true that ‘it must work or top trainers wouldn’t do it’. People are incredibly resistant to change or to having outdated ideas challenged. Especially around making horses do things. I have heard a respected trainer saying 'get after him - he needs to be more scared of you than the fence'. Well here's a radical thought - how about the horse is not scared of you OR the fence?!

Confidence is chipped away gradually. So maybe a rapping session gets the horse jumping more cleanly and everyone thinks, great it works. But at the same time a seed of doubt is planted and the horse becomes a bit anxious, approaches jumps with a slight mental brace. That horse might start refusing months down the line but in my view, the start of the problem could easily have been in making the horse doubt his ability and distrust fences. Like ponies who are overjumped or socked in the mouth get sour over time. It is not immediate and I think a lot of poeple want instant results and don't recognise long term harm.

 

[ycbm]

is about improving proprioception

I can't agree there. It's about creating proprioception because it causes the horse to hit a pole that it wasn't going to hit. That's never going to be fair, though I can see that it can improve the horse's clearance by making it afraid to ever touch a pole.
.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I can't agree there. It's about creating proprioception because it causes the horse to hit a pole that it wasn't going to hit. That's never going to be fair, though I can see that it can improve the horse's clearance by making it afraid to ever touch a pole.
.

Exactly! It DAMAGES proprioception which literally means the horse's awareness of where her body is in space. The horse starts thinking 'Oh I don;t actually know where my legs are'. Which is not great for the horse really. So they overcompensate and tuck up.

 

[RachelFerd]

I can't agree there. It's about creating proprioception because it causes the horse to hit a pole that it wasn't going to hit. That's never going to be fair, though I can see that it can improve the horse's clearance by making it afraid to ever touch a pole.
.

I think my point on proprioception was that touching a horse with a light beanpole was about improving proprioception (not a SJ pole) - BUT heavy caveat - I'll never do this, I have never done this - but I can see how done in a very skilled and calm manner, that it *might* be possible to improve the horses jump. I am not ever going there though...

 

[ihatework]

I think my point on proprioception was that touching a horse with a light beanpole was about improving proprioception (not a SJ pole) - BUT heavy caveat - I'll never do this, I have never done this - but I can see how done in a very skilled and calm manner, that it *might* be possible to improve the horses jump. I am not ever going there though...

I can completely see the merit in it too, but like you wouldn’t try it as timing and skill is so critical.
I have a feeling it’s more used for horses that have one leg that dangles more.

 

[ycbm]

I think my point on proprioception was that touching a horse with a light beanpole was about improving proprioception (not a SJ pole) - BUT heavy caveat - I'll never do this, I have never done this - but I can see how done in a very skilled and calm manner, that it *might* be possible to improve the horses jump. I am not ever going there though...

It's still about making the horse think it touched the pole when it didn't, however light the touch used is. It's a betrayal, imo.
.

 

[MagicMelon]

It really makes me so sad, I used to respect all these riders and now I feel like we can't trust any of them. I hate the fact some riders think they should be untouchable and they can do what they want because they're "professional" or whatever. What a disgrace any of this sort of thing is deemed acceptable. The equine world really have to change their way of thinking and start treating horses with respect.