Magnesium - the myths and reality

[Caol Ila]

I was scrolling through Facebook, as you do, and came across one of those sponsored ads for something called EquiFeast. Out of curiosity, I succumbed and clicked on it.

It's a feed/supplement company which markets itself on making supplements and feed (especially calming supplements) which do not contain magnesium. They argue that grass and hay contains all the magnesium horses need, and when we add Mg supplements to their diet, we are essentially overdosing them on magnesium. A horse on too much Mg will suffer from some sedative effects and may in fact be more spooky, because their brain isn't working properly. In fact, they assert, oral Mg has similar effects to giving your horse Sedalin. Kind of a big claim.

Magnesium - our controversial but science supported view

equifeast-shop.com

The Myths of Magnesium Horse Calmers

equifeast-shop.com

As you can see from these links, they are backing their claims with studies, although many appear to be their own studies.

This is saying pretty much the opposite of what I'd heard or read before. Which is that a lot of UK forage is deficient in Mg, and a horse with an Mg deficiency might be more unsettled and anxious. If it responds well to an Mg supplement, then that probably explains the spooky behaviour. If it doesn't, then the Mg supplement hasn't done any harm because a horse will pee out excess Mg, but that's not the reason your horse is anxious.

I know a lot of us on this forum use Progressive Earth or ForagePlus balancers. Those all contain Mg. They also seem like well-researched things, but not using the same research as EquiFeast.

Does anyone knowledgeable (@PurBee?) without a dog in the fight - so not a feed company trying to sell you stuff - have any thoughts?

 

[Red-1]

I tried the EquiFeast ones when I had my overwrought mare. She came off a magnesium calmer to have it. She got worse! That is just a sample of one, but it didn't help for my mare.

I think the magnesium calmers only help if they are deficient. One thing that I have been told can tip the balance to being deficient is if you are feeding too much calcium. It is not that they are deficient per se, as in they are not eating enough, more that the ratio becomes incorrect.

Many minerals have to be in balance. I had a youngster way back in the 80s who didn't initially thrive and who had milk powder. She got out of whack with her calcium/phosphorous ratios (according to my vet). I bet she was also out with magnesium but I didn't know about that then.

 

[rabatsa]

So wasted £'s over the years ensuring that our dairy cattle got a magnesium supplement before spring turnout...

 

[YourValentine]

There is an ideal calcium : magnesium ratio for soil, in grass, and in diets.
If the soil is out the hay/grass is likely to be out. In some regions soils are Mg deficient (or very high in Ca inhibiting Mg uptake), so in parts of the country a Mg based supplement will have an impact and in others it won't.

 

[planete]

I put Woody onto Equifeast's Lamicore last Autumn when his normal vitamin E supplementation stopped helping with his muscle myopathy. Like you I read the info with a heavy dose of scepticism having supplemented magnesium to help him cope with grass over Spring and Summer. I was at my wits' end and decided to give their Lamicore a try, stopping all additional magnesium in his diet as recommended. In three days his energy started coming back, after a week he was feeling better than I had ever seen him and he has not looked back since. He is now relaxed and mellow and actually offered canter in the school for the first time a few weeks ago. The vet physio who sees him regularly is also very impressed with the improvement in his condition. I have no scientific background to base any comments on but going by the results something is working. I was put onto it by a saddle fitter whose horse has PSSM2 and who says she has several clients with PSSM2 who are doing equally well on the same regime.

 

[Red-1]

I just had a look at EqiFeast's Bombproof calmer and the top listed active ingredient is tryptophan. I recollected reading something about that on here recently, so had a quick google and found...

Abstract
Preparations that contain tryptophan are marketed world wide as calmative agents to treat excitable horses. Tryptophan is the amino acid precursor for serotonin, a neurotransmitter implicated in sedation, inhibition of aggression, fear and stress, in various animal species and humans. Experiments have shown that tryptophan supplementation decreases aggression in humans, dogs, pigs, poultry, and fish, and that it may reduce fearfulness and stress in calves, vixens and poultry. However, behavioural characteristics more closely linked to excitement, such as hyperactivity in dogs, are not modified by tryptophan supplementation. Research using a variety of animals other than horses, has shown that the behavioural response to tryptophan supplementation varies with age, breed and gender, and can be modified by diet, exercise, social status, and level of arousal. Significantly, the response is species-dependent, and there are no scientific publications that confirm the efficacy of tryptophan as a calmative in excitable horses. The few studies where tryptophan has been administered to horses suggest that low doses (relative to those contained in commercial preparations) cause mild excitement, whereas high doses reduce endurance capacity, and cause acute haemolytic anaemia if given orally, due to a toxic hindgut metabolite. As tryptophan continues to be used as an equine calmative, there is an urgent need for research to confirm its efficacy in horses, and to establish a safe therapeutic dose range. In the meantime, available data suggest that it would be imprudent to rely on tryptophan to calm the excitable horse, and instead, that a greater effort should be made to identify the underlying causes of excitability, and to explore more appropriate non-pharmacological remedies.





I also had a Google of Calcium and Magnesium is consort and found this...

Magnesium Deficiencies
Magnesium is often the most neglected mineral in horse feeds. We have already established that it plays an important role in nerve and muscle function so what happens when a horse has a magnesium deficiency?

Deficiency has varying effects, some horses do not suffer or show any signs, while others can have a poor tolerance to work showing signs of nervousness, wariness, excitability, and muscle tremors. Spring grass is typically deficient in magnesium due to the fast growth rate at this time of year, and owners can often overlook that horses showing the symptoms mentioned earlier, may be deficient in magnesium.

Magnesium has a reputation for having a calming influence on our equine friends because when a horse gets excited, its body uses magnesium to calm down and relax. To understand why magnesium affects the horse in a calming manner, it is important to know what is happening in your horse’s body when there is a magnesium deficiency.

Calcium is responsible for muscle contraction and magnesium looks after the relaxation or release of the muscles. When magnesium levels are low, muscles could contract too much and cause symptoms such as cramps or muscle spasms because the muscle cannot completely relax. This puts the horses’ body into a continually stressed state. A shortage of magnesium makes nerve endings hypersensitive exacerbating pain and noise creating a negative reaction in the body triggering the release of adrenaline and adding to the behaviour we see in some deficient horses.

Magnesium for horses may play an important part in reducing equine obesity lessening the risk of laminitis in horses prone to it during periods of strong spring grass growth. In those with insulin resistance and equine metabolic syndrome, blood magnesium levels rise following a meal high in starch or sugar, indicating that magnesium is involved with the action of insulin to clear the glucose from the blood. If magnesium levels are low, there will be impaired carbohydrate metabolism and reduced insulin response (insulin resistance).

No wonder Magnesium for horses is known as the ‘super mineral’!




So, I guess my advice would be to try something and see if it works!

 

[Sossigpoker]

It's like anything , feed too much or little of something and you'll disrupt the balance.
Horses that go mental on magnesium probably do so because it pushes sodium, potassium and calcium out of whack. The answer isn't to not feed magnesium but to balance the diet.

I feed magnesium and salt to balance the potassium in the grass. Any excess will be peed out anyway.

 

[Caol Ila]

I am mostly surprised/baffled by this part:

"Can we achieve a similar sedative effect [to injections] with oral magnesium? Jess Dodd in Australia has gone a long way to suggesting we can. She measured how fast horses ran away from an acute scare and compared the effect of magnesium supplementation with the veterinary sedative Acepromazine (ACE, ACP, Sedalin). She then found similar results when using both 2.5 grams and 10 grams of magnesium.

So if you have a spooky horse and you give it more magnesium, you may well think that it is calmer. In fact, it is likely to be mildly sedated. Of course, some horses sedate really nicely and are fine to ride. However, our rider and customer feedback suggests many horses become more anxious and less able to cope with pressure when given surprising small amounts of supplementary magnesium.

We shouldn't be surprised by this. The biochemistry and physiology is really clear that EXCESS magnesium impairs brain function (by blocking NMDA channels and calcium receptors). The FEI lists injectable magnesium as a sedative (prohibited in competition) and the science referred to above shows that the same can be achieved orally."

I have been giving horses Mg supplements on and off for years, and not one has shown any similarities to a horse on Sedalin/Ace. Mg did not cure Gypsum's fencewalking, but it decreased the frequency and made it more predictable, thus easier to manage. Both my horses now are on the PE supplement, which contains Mg as well as lots of other trace elements.

Meanwhile, The British Geological Survey say this: "Median ratio comparisons between MgO in Glasgow top and deeper soils and the Humber-Trentregion show lesser levels of enhancement in the Glasgow soils (x1.1-1.8) than those reported for England and Wales, and values in the Glasgow rural and urban top soils are marginally lower (x0.7) than world averages."

This paper goes on to say that MgO is more prevalent in parts of the city where there has been a lot of industrial activity, but my horses live in an area where there has historically been very little heavy industry.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

My appy goes crazy on mag ox so i dont feed him anything with magnesium in.

I have recently been told by a pro that Vit E can cause spookyness in horses, has anyone seen this or seen any research on it?

 

[criso]

I've done a few forage analyses on grass and hay over the years and although there are differences one of the consistent themes has been low mg combined with very high ca, so I've supplemented on that basis.


One thing I do wonder about though is people doubling up. They may feed a balancer, a calmer and something designed to help with laminitis all containing mg

 

[horsesense]

Chlorophyll, the green pigment in plants, contains magnesium, so if horses are eating grass, or dried grass in the form of hay, they are receiving a natural source of the element.

 

[Dexter]

My appy goes crazy on mag ox so i dont feed him anything with magnesium in.

I have recently been told by a pro that Vit E can cause spookyness in horses, has anyone seen this or seen any research on it?

yes, if I gave mine too much she was sharp as a tack and riding was like taking your life into your hands!

 

[Reacher]

post 2 on this thread and the link therein is interesting

Equifeast CC&C

I can’t find any recent reviews on equifeast cool,calm and collected, My mare looses concentration when she sees another horse and totally looses it, I like the sound of their products but read some reviews on here but they’re from 2014! Any recent ones? Is it worth it? She’s currently on...

forums.horseandhound.co.uk

 

[marmalade76]

The Equifeast guy has posted on here before, didn't come across very well at all.

 

[Caol Ila]

post 2 on this thread and the link therein is interesting

Equifeast CC&C

I can’t find any recent reviews on equifeast cool,calm and collected, My mare looses concentration when she sees another horse and totally looses it, I like the sound of their products but read some reviews on here but they’re from 2014! Any recent ones? Is it worth it? She’s currently on...

forums.horseandhound.co.uk

Oh, wow. Very interesting indeed. This is why I love this forum.

 

[Elno]

Balancing minerals is difficult. There are so many interactions that you have to take into consideration, and also the fact that we really don't know how well the extra minerals that we provide the horse actually are taken up and metabolised. It is not as simple as just adding a mineral supplement and hope for the best. Ideally it is best to have a forage analysis, even though even that will be just a point in the right direction.

I've tried a Mg based calmer once and my horse went mental, but she was not oversupplemented Ca on the other hand which is known to mess with Mg and cause a relative defiency

I only supplement with selenium currently because that is for a fact deficient where I live. Everything else...nope, I honestly don't see the point.

 

[ycbm]

I was scrolling through Facebook, as you do, and came across one of those sponsored ads for something called EquiFeast. Out of curiosity, I succumbed and clicked on it.

It's a feed/supplement company which markets itself on making supplements and feed (especially calming supplements) which do not contain magnesium. They argue that grass and hay contains all the magnesium horses need, and when we add Mg supplements to their diet, we are essentially overdosing them on magnesium. A horse on too much Mg will suffer from some sedative effects and may in fact be more spooky, because their brain isn't working properly. In fact, they assert, oral Mg has similar effects to giving your horse Sedalin. Kind of a big claim.

Magnesium - our controversial but science supported view

equifeast-shop.com

The Myths of Magnesium Horse Calmers

equifeast-shop.com

As you can see from these links, they are backing their claims with studies, although many appear to be their own studies.

This is saying pretty much the opposite of what I'd heard or read before. Which is that a lot of UK forage is deficient in Mg, and a horse with an Mg deficiency might be more unsettled and anxious. If it responds well to an Mg supplement, then that probably explains the spooky behaviour. If it doesn't, then the Mg supplement hasn't done any harm because a horse will pee out excess Mg, but that's not the reason your horse is anxious.

I know a lot of us on this forum use Progressive Earth or ForagePlus balancers. Those all contain Mg. They also seem like well-researched things, but not using the same research as EquiFeast.

Does anyone knowledgeable (@PurBee?) without a dog in the fight - so not a feed company trying to sell you stuff - have any thoughts?

I despair of the quality of research which is published about horses.

The calming study took 6 horses. Just 6. And it scared them in a custom built chute and timed how long it took them to run just 2 meters. 2! It says the horses"acted as their own control group". Meaning they scared them without magnesium, then they gave them magnesium for a week and scared them again. And nobody seems to have considered that they might have learnt the first time around that the fright really wasn't particularly frightening, so ran away slower second time.

Honestly, you can't draw any serious conclusions from a study of just 6 horses acting as their own control.
.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I was scrolling through Facebook, as you do, and came across one of those sponsored ads for something called EquiFeast. Out of curiosity, I succumbed and clicked on it.

It's a feed/supplement company which markets itself on making supplements and feed (especially calming supplements) which do not contain magnesium. They argue that grass and hay contains all the magnesium horses need, and when we add Mg supplements to their diet, we are essentially overdosing them on magnesium. A horse on too much Mg will suffer from some sedative effects and may in fact be more spooky, because their brain isn't working properly. In fact, they assert, oral Mg has similar effects to giving your horse Sedalin. Kind of a big claim.

Magnesium - our controversial but science supported view

equifeast-shop.com

The Myths of Magnesium Horse Calmers

equifeast-shop.com

As you can see from these links, they are backing their claims with studies, although many appear to be their own studies.

This is saying pretty much the opposite of what I'd heard or read before. Which is that a lot of UK forage is deficient in Mg, and a horse with an Mg deficiency might be more unsettled and anxious. If it responds well to an Mg supplement, then that probably explains the spooky behaviour. If it doesn't, then the Mg supplement hasn't done any harm because a horse will pee out excess Mg, but that's not the reason your horse is anxious.

I know a lot of us on this forum use Progressive Earth or ForagePlus balancers. Those all contain Mg. They also seem like well-researched things, but not using the same research as EquiFeast.

Does anyone knowledgeable (@PurBee?) without a dog in the fight - so not a feed company trying to sell you stuff - have any thoughts?

My mare was MEGA MEGA spooky when I first got her, and reactive, I tried her on Magic which did absolutely nothing. Then recommended Horsefirst, things seem to be better then by week 5 she was worse. A vet near here recommended Equifeast to a livery as it is calcium based and she was on the cool calm and collected and improved.

So I called them, they asked me what she was on and I told them.

1. Firstly they said cut out the pony nuts, still a bit spooky
2. two weeks later they said cut out the Equivite

We changed her too the coolcore she was def better, but not as perfect as I would like

Then we tried the Bomproofing with added tryptophan even better then after a bit we had too have the fine tune 1 and fine tune 3. + A different horse



Stupidly when she did her check ligament and finally was allowed out 6 months later for 1 hr, I put some pony nuts in a treat ball. By day 5 I went to catch her tried to slip headcollar over her nose she freaked and pulled back.
When I finally caught her I put her in stable to groom her.
Hard to explain how she was, but she was so tense like a board, a body brush on her she jumped away from me. tense and still eyeing me up whites of eyes showing snorting and blowing at me. NO 1 on the yard could touch her as she backed away all tense and would take no treats from anyone.

2nd evening went in with her haynet and she backed away from me, then I hung it up and she started warily to eat it. Standing right beside her shoulder I went to lift her rug up off her withers and she leapt 2 feet away. I had to get a field safe headcollar which made it easier as I got fed up with her shooting off when I tried to put over her nose.


5th day, I led her to mounting block and got on then someone held my stirrup and as they walked back along side her head to go back to the centre chairs, she freaked and bunny hopped backwards across the yard.


I used to cry allot as she would not let me touch her, stroke her, love her, pet her.

Knowing about the magnesium, it dawned on me that maybe the 1/4 scoop in the treat ball (once a day) was what was doing it. So I was recommended to get grass nuts instead, which I did the next day. Of course she loved them and by 3rd day after I noticed less fear.


3 weeks later she was nearly back to her doughnut self.

Now I make sure ALL her diet is kept bellow 6% magnesium as the Gabapentins don't help either with her so have to watch things like stud muffins and herbal treats are all a no no.


I have many video footage of her episodes or freaking out. Now off them she will always be a donut to me.


She is one horse which Magnesium calmers are a HUGE NONO. Equifeast has made all the difference as I nearly sold her during that episode.

Now we dropped the fine tune 1 and 3 but can use it if she gets worst but now fine on just Coolcore Bomproofing.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I bought into the Equifeast hype for a bit with the late maxicob.

On reporting back to the Equifeast marketing bod that he was much worse on it, I was assured that was great news as it proved that it was working .

Pfft. Scam. Avoid.

 

[SEL]

I regularly get into arguments about Equifeast / calcium on the PSSM forums. For some horses lamicore has been life changing. My non PSSM Dales X does better on it than other balancers, but my P1 mare needs magnesium or her crest comes up and her feet go splat. They have the same hay and graze off the same field.

My annoyance on the PSSM forums is Malcolm (owner Equifeast) is allowed to comment and shouts down anyone who disagrees with his interpretation of magnesium as a potentially dangerous calmer.

 

[Sanversera]

So wasted £'s over the years ensuring that our dairy cattle got a magnesium supplement before spring turnout...

Horses arnt cows and don't get staggers

 

[deicinmerlyn]

I tried it years ago. It had no effect whatsoever. Calcium may soothe the gut if it’s needed. Mag ox definitely works if horses are deficient.

 

[PurBee]

Chlorophyll, the green pigment in plants, contains magnesium, so if horses are eating grass, or dried grass in the form of hay, they are receiving a natural source of the element.

The biochemistry of mammals and plants is so interwoven and complex, that any deficiency or excess has a cascading effects on other bodily enzymes/mineral levels/hormone production etc.

This stuff can become a deep rabbit-hole, and as much as i thrive learning and discovering about nutrition of soils/plants/body, even i have to stop and have a breather.

The equifeast products that use tyrosine instead of magnesium, are essentially using another method to alleviate the side-issues that magnesium deficiency causes.
Only magnesium sorts out a magnesium deficient soils or bodies - but tyrosine will alleviate a major side-symptom of horses eating magnesium deficient grass = reactive oxygen species = oxidation.
Tyrosine is an antioxidant.
(Oxidants go around destroying cells…to put it in a nutshell)

…but pssst magnesium is an anti-oxidant and a deficiency of magnesium causes an increase of oxidative stress species in the body (and its far cheaper to supplement than tyrosine and is part of the foundational nutrition of mammals in comparison to tyrosine):

Magnesium, Oxidative Stress, Inflammation, and Cardiovascular Disease

Hypomagnesemia is commonly observed in heart failure, diabetes mellitus, hypertension, and cardiovascular diseases. Low serum magnesium (Mg) is a predictor for cardiovascular and all-cause mortality and treating Mg deficiency may help prevent cardiovascular disease. In this review, we discuss...

www.mdpi.com

“Mg deficiency affects metabolism including Mg deficiency-induced oxidative stress, inflammation, and insulin resistance.”

The above link is a good paper on magnesium many many roles in the body.


Supplementing tyrosine helps l-dopa and glutamate streams that are ‘feel good’ neuro-aids - but that is not addressing any fundamental mineral imbalances/deficiencies/toxicities of calcium/mag/sodium/potassium.
Its like me snorting a line of cocaine for some instant energy to do a fun run instead of eating carb-heavy energy-giving foods. Many supplements are band-aid solutions for an imbalanced basic diet.

We can throw all manner of supplements at horses (and will forever need to) IF the foundational aspects of the diet are imbalanced. The base minerals and calories/ mj /protein content.
It’s vastly under-appreciated how these baseline minerals are important co-factors for thousands of biochemical up-stream reactions.



Oxidation (Reactive Oxygen Species) is caused in grass/plants whose soils are magnesium or potassium deficient:

Functioning of potassium and magnesium in photosynthesis, photosynthate translocation and photoprotection - PubMed

Potassium (K) and magnesium (Mg) are mineral nutrients that are required in large quantities by plants. Both elements critically contribute to the process of photosynthesis and the subsequent long-distance transport of photoassimilates. If K or Mg is not present in sufficient quantities in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

“Potassium (K) and magnesium (Mg) are mineral nutrients that are required in large quantities by plants. Both elements critically contribute to the process of photosynthesis and the subsequent long-distance transport of photoassimilates. If K or Mg is not present in sufficient quantities in photosynthetic tissues, complex interactions of anatomical, physiological and biochemical responses result in a reduction of photosynthetic carbon assimilation. As a consequence, excessive production of reactive oxygen species causes photo-oxidation of the photosynthetic apparatus and causes an up-regulation of photoprotective mechanisms.”

The above embolded part of that paragraph is important for owners of grazing animals to understand.
If, as is often the case in over-grazed horse fields, grass gets stressed for whatever reason, it becomes toxic.
If a paddock gets grazed tight with barely an inch of grass growth the grass can alter its ‘survival capabilities’ and induce toxins/funguses/oxidation species to literally put animals off from eating it.
Plants all over the world have this capability. They can alter their ‘bodies’ to become toxic in various different ways, to stop being eaten.
With grazers, they are confined so have no choice but to eat the grass that has become ‘toxic’.

Because our top-soils have been tested to be on average, low to very low in magnesium, whatever plant grows there, as the above paragraph states in that study, the creation of oxidants is ‘normal’ for the plant.
As this https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3921/9/10/907 study i linked above shows via linking various other studies proving the concept - oxidative stress causes metabolic derangements, EMS For horses, diabetes for humans, aswell as respiratory issues….hello! That’s ever-increasing in the equine world too, despite our dust-free environment efforts…and a whole host of very common to humans and animals diseases.

Everyone is scared of long lush grass - due to sugar - yet the horse can handle sugar IF it doesnt have a deranged metabolism, IF it doesnt spend years eating bare paddocks with toxic stressed-grass thats very contributable to its sugar metabolism issues in the first place!
Land and soil management practices are largely ignored in the equine workd, as we struggle to house horses on the ideal acres needed, and end up destroying land/their health due to soil depletion of essential minerals, and stressed grass.

I did an experiment with my prone to fattiness and fat pad mare -i got rid of the fat pads with magnesium supplementation, that was fairly quick and easy. My grass is high rainfall area and mag deficient. I applied cal-mag pellets to 1 field only as a test field. One of the worse fields for low mag. I noticed the grass growth was faster, greener, glossier. It looked really silky too - such nice quality compared to the mag-deficient pale grass we’re all used to seeing. It’s green but its not that deep glossy green, full of clorophyll.
I grazed the horses on it, long lush grass, no muzzles, for that season, and the mare looked fan-tassss-tic. The best i’ve seen her. The supplementation i gave of mag wasn’t high enough evidently as she was getting her spoonful in her bowl feed and was getting many fresh grams from the calmag field.
Black shiniest coat ive ever seen her have. Body shape very reasonable and slender. The boy looked fabulous too - but she has more welsh in her and being female with a different hormone profile and older than the boy -she visually showed the need for baseline minerals to be adequate and balanced.



Equifeast speak of lack of science, confusingly, as there’s scrolls of lab test data on soil/forage reports worldwide giving us data about average mineral content.
In our own backyard we have forageplus attesting to their testing of forage all over uk shows magnesium deficient values, and an imbalance in ratios.
I’ve seen plenty of forage reports from published online users personal tests worldwide of very out of balance base-line minerals in hay and haylages, that they try to balance with minerals.

Sure, there will be some soils worldwide with more mag and not completely deficient - but modern agri practices focus only on adding NPK to grow hay and haylage, and the calcium lime added is very low in mag if theres any at all. Hence why grass/hays are super high in calcium compared to mag. Farmers used to use dolomite which is calmag, on their fields - but the last mine in ireland closed in 2010 when i enquired for a truckload for my land. I can easily avail of calcium and NPK.

On the whole, magnesium is not commercially added to the soils of commercial farms, thus the majority of forage products are low in mag in ratio comparison to the other minerals.
I’ve spent years happily reading studies worldwide on forages and soils mineral results to learn more about what grazing animals are getting, so to claim there’s no science on this ‘magnesium deficiency agenda’ equifeast seem to imply is occurring, is inaccurate.

But the lengths companies go to, to have a USP, unique selling point, to poke out above the gazillion competition companies, never surprises me.

Yes, tyrosine is a calmer, so are loads of other supplements - but unless the root cause of needing to add that very up-stream nutrient is found (usually a deficiency of other baseline nutrients that *cough* everyone else sells and are cheap), folk will allow marketing, shiny food bags, and dubious ‘science’ studies to sway them to part with their cash.

Finally, to truly know if we, our horse, dog or cat is deficient in magnesium we need to test everything, as we all live on different soils and eat different foods.
We test our paddock soils, paddock grass, hay supply (hopefully we have 1 main supplier we stick with). For the horse, we’d need to test blood - but that won’t give us the whole picture of whether our horse is mag deficient as the body prioritises heart and metabolism health over bone health. Bones store the majority of magnesium in the body, so do some organs, but bones are the main storage of magnesium. The blood results usually show an in-range magnesium level because the body steals magnesium from the bones to put it in the blood for other vital body uses, like muscle relaxation.

A bone density scan can be done but that doesnt show precisely what the bone is made of, just the density. If the density is low, if you know for sure your horse gets high calcium (most do from hay) and high phosphorus (from grain feeds) and you have a low bone density scan and don’t supplement magnesium - by reason of deduction we can guess the bone lacks magnesium. Yet the only true way to know the levels in bones is a invasive bone biopsy. Which, understandably we wouldnt feel comfortable putting a horse through that to know if it magnesium deficient.

Aside from invasive organ and bone biopsies we have the soil/paddock/hay and other feeds to test and measure their magnesium intake, to see if it aligns with the RDA of horse maintenance values, or working values. If the horse is ridden you want to give more as they use more through work.

Sorry this has ended up being long. Nutrition is a vast subject and sweeping statements made by companies like ‘horses dont need magnesium, they need tyrosine!’ hinders understanding and progress, that primarily we need healthier soils/paddocks and forages, to REDUCE the need for supplements, rather than force the need for supplements.

 

[Caol Ila]

Very informative, Purbee. Thanks for that. It's what I was hoping for. I wasn't about to go out and buy EquiFeast, but their claims re: magnesium were so wildly different to everything else I had read about it that I wanted to post on here and see what the knowledgeable collective thought. The whole thread has been very informative.

This paragraph was interesting:

If, as is often the case in over-grazed horse fields, grass gets stressed for whatever reason, it becomes toxic.
If a paddock gets grazed tight with barely an inch of grass growth the grass can alter its ‘survival capabilities’ and induce toxins/funguses/oxidation species to literally put animals off from eating it.

At Hermosa's previous yard, the YO thought most of the horses in her 24/7 turnout field were getting too fat, and she divided the field in two with an electric fence. The very good doers (including my horse) got the smaller section. That got very grazed down very quickly, while the field was kind of a monoculture under the best of circumstances. By September, the grass was so short that it looked like cheap, old astroturf. The horses were hungry. Whenever I brought mine in, she would stuff her face with hay like it was the last hay on earth and walk back to her field at the slowest, most unenthusiastic pace imaginable.

A couple horses in that section of the field started looking fairly ribby and got moved to the 'good' section, where the grass was still pretty long, but Hermosa and a few others didn't lose any weight despite the sh1t grass in their section. I had a conversation with the YO about moving Hermosa to the other half because she was hungry, pissed off, and spookier than normal, but YO pointed out that she was not exactly losing weight, thus she did not concede to moving her to the better grass. I was aware on a very basic level -- before reading this post -- that short grass actually has more sugars than long grass, due to stress, but we've all had that YO who's been around horses longer than you have been alive, and you really can't argue about management things like that.

I was supplementing the horse with MgO powder and the PE balancer, but only when I was there, which was three or four times per week. And never at the full dose of that stuff because you have to sneak it into her feed or she won't freakin' eat it at all. I figured (and still do) that some is better than none.

Before winter really kicked, the grass at the current yard is longer and more varied species-wise than previous yard, and she is on DIY so I can feed her whatever I want every day. Things like Mg supplements. The very dry, itchy skin she had around her mane and dock has gone, and she has resumed being a fairly calm, laid back character.

It's a very interesting rabbit hole. One most of us muddle through with very unscientific experimentation on our n=1 horses. Right now, I have no reason to think what I am giving my horses at this second isn't working, but when you read something that seems totally out there, the little doubting voice in your head goes, what??? and, holy sh1t, what if I shouldn't give them Mg??

 

[Boulty]

This is all very anecdotal but I did try one of the Equifeast calmers on the Welsh idiot out of desperation for a period of a few months & it did seem to help with his more erratic tendencies. Then he went to Rockley & Nic wasn’t keen on continuing it as she felt the calcium in it might throw things out of whack with her mineral balancing to soil analysis. This included feeding Mag Ox at a fairly high rate. He was also less erratic on this regime than he had been previously. (Yes he could still be a div but he was less dangerously over reactive) I never restarted the Equifeast as didn’t see the need but continued with a mineral balancer & Mag Ox.

 

[PurBee]

Very informative, Purbee. Thanks for that. It's what I was hoping for. I wasn't about to go out and buy EquiFeast, but their claims re: magnesium were so wildly different to everything else I had read about it that I wanted to post on here and see what the knowledgeable collective thought. The whole thread has been very informative.

This paragraph was interesting:


At Hermosa's previous yard, the YO thought most of the horses in her 24/7 turnout field were getting too fat, and she divided the field in two with an electric fence. The very good doers (including my horse) got the smaller section. That got very grazed down very quickly, while the field was kind of a monoculture under the best of circumstances. By September, the grass was so short that it looked like cheap, old astroturf. The horses were hungry. Whenever I brought mine in, she would stuff her face with hay like it was the last hay on earth and walk back to her field at the slowest, most unenthusiastic pace imaginable.

A couple horses in that section of the field started looking fairly ribby and got moved to the 'good' section, where the grass was still pretty long, but Hermosa and a few others didn't lose any weight despite the sh1t grass in their section. I had a conversation with the YO about moving Hermosa to the other half because she was hungry, pissed off, and spookier than normal, but YO pointed out that she was not exactly losing weight, thus she did not concede to moving her to the better grass. I was aware on a very basic level -- before reading this post -- that short grass actually has more sugars than long grass, due to stress, but we've all had that YO who's been around horses longer than you have been alive, and you really can't argue about management things like that.

I was supplementing the horse with MgO powder and the PE balancer, but only when I was there, which was three or four times per week. And never at the full dose of that stuff because you have to sneak it into her feed or she won't freakin' eat it at all. I figured (and still do) that some is better than none.

Before winter really kicked, the grass at the current yard is longer and more varied species-wise than previous yard, and she is on DIY so I can feed her whatever I want every day. Things like Mg supplements. The very dry, itchy skin she had around her mane and dock has gone, and she has resumed being a fairly calm, laid back character.

It's a very interesting rabbit hole. One most of us muddle through with very unscientific experimentation on our n=1 horses. Right now, I have no reason to think what I am giving my horses at this second isn't working, but when you read something that seems totally out there, the little doubting voice in your head goes, what??? and, holy sh1t, what if I shouldn't give them Mg??

Yes, stressed grass and what happens to it is an area im looking into deeper. It was another thread that had spurred the research but only incidentally while researching mycotoxins further did i find a japanese study showing the cut grass had developed a much higher value of funguses than the long grass due to the stress of being short and needing to ‘survive’ did it send out ‘poisons’ to stop animals eating it further. If memory serves i think that was a fescue species of grass.
Im looking into other grass species and their reactions to stress that have been studied.

Climate can stress grass, sudden cold downpours or frosts, snows - all can , within hours, alter grass nutritional profile because the grass shifts its resources within itself to preserve itself.
Its taught me, in a way, this survival mechanism/instinct we think requires ‘thought’ and intellectual consciousness, really is a fundamental aspect of nature, that occurs autonomically, when threat, of any sort, is encountered, by whatever means, to any living ‘thing’, even plants!

I first heard of this action of plants in a documentary about these low trees in australia that were being eaten by goats, as there wasnt much else green to eat in the dry heat. The goats got ill and it wasnt understood immediately why. They tested the trees, and found the trees that had been eaten most had developed a higher toxin in the leaves, than the same trees that the goats couldnt reach to eat. The plants intelligence felt the threat of being stripped of its ability to ‘live’ via its leaves and photosynthesis, that it produced, in a short space of time, toxins to put-off grazers.

Its a fascinating aspect of plant growth and survival, and i think it needs to be more widely studied and considered with animal husbandry land management issues and certain health issues we experience with grazing animals.

It’s good to be open to new research, and viewpoints - investigate claims thoroughly though, because its easy for companies to blind with their ‘science’. There will be some animals grazing on fairly adequate magnesium soils or even have a spring water supply giving mag in it, or be on bagged feeds that contain magnesium, yet we cannot discount shed loads of evidence about overall soil/grass/hay magnesium levels being low, because of modern farming/grazing methods, just because one company wants to push their (patented) specialist preparation mineral.

Youre up north with high rainfall, like me in west ireland - mag in topsoils easily gets washed by excess rain to mid-soil regions. I have 4 fields, all with different topsoil profiles, but all low in mangesium, and this farm isnt intensively grazed or farmed, but suffers ‘stress’ to the soil of high rainfall 2000+mm per year, reducing cal and mag in the soil.
Deeper plants safe for horses to eat, like herbs of chicory, dandelion, sainfoin can mine the mid-soils with their longer roots than grass have and provide more minerals for grazers. These deeper rooting safe plants also help stabilise and strengthen wetter soils, protecting from poaching.
Deciduous horse-safe edible trees and bushes edging fields is also a useful natural mineral fertiliser, as they mine deeper for minerals, and their autumn leaf-drop all over the fields rot down to feed the top soil with minerals.

Glad to hear Hermosa is doing well at the new yard Its great you have more freedom there to control her diet. I prefer multi-species grass to mono-grass paddocks. A varied diet is a better balanced diet. Not all grasses are equal, and vary in their nutritional profiles/stress response.

To put the magnesium ‘myth’ to bed, we’d need studies of cadavers from wild horse bones and the soils they roamed on, and domestic horse bones, all certified what diet they were on, and compare their bone mineral values. The results would be so interesting, but to be any use at all, its a study where the animals have been on the same diet for years, to know the longterm implications on skeletal mineral health.

 

[Red-1]

I bought into the Equifeast hype for a bit with the late maxicob.

On reporting back to the Equifeast marketing bod that he was much worse on it, I was assured that was great news as it proved that it was working .

Pfft. Scam. Avoid.

HaHa, that is what they told me too!!!

I was not buying something that made her worse.

Really interesting PurBee, in fact I just ordered some Mag Ox for Rigs on the strength of your post.

 

[tallyho!]

Still an area that interests me greatly. Thanks, PurBee for v. informative posts.

Great suggestion on researching bone mineral domestic v wild... I often think that maybe we give too much grass/forage/feed/supplements, and what we are really balancing here in the domestic world of horses is actually the "too much of a good thing" effect. Whereby, there is already an excess in the system, and the result of that is the behavioural issues, so we add whatever mineral we get sold that works (temporarily), then we get kidney/digestive/liver issues down the line.

Why don't we just, first of all, strip it all back for 12 weeks, and see what happens at the end (as during that phase it'll be the "rebalancing" of the horses' system. If at the end of that trial separation from an abundance of nutrients, there is still an issue, you have a better chance of knowing what - at the very least you might find out it's actually the grass/hay that is the problem orrr.... not. Start there, and test the soil/grass.

After all, the horse evolved to live on practically nothing and is extremely efficient. All the excess is just excreted anyway.

Remember, advertising works on selling you something you think you haven't got and plays on your FOMO. I'm a sucker for it too....

 

[ycbm]

Horses arnt cows and don't get staggers

Some people would disagree, this is from Hygain

GRASS STAGGERS
Grass staggers, also called ‘grass tetany’ is a disorder where horses can exhibit stagger-like symptoms such as lack of coordination, muscle spasms and tremors. ..... Symptoms usually appear very quickly (overnight) and increase as the disease progresses. Affected animals may die within 48 hours. Although the precise cause is not known, grass staggers is known to occur in horses grazing exclusively rich lush pasture, high in potassium and low in magnesium, often accompanied by low calcium levels. Grass staggers can happen at any time of the year but is most common after drought-breaking rain, resulting in lush grass. Rapidly growing grasses tend to be rich in potassium and poor in magnesium/calcium. It should be noted that high levels of potassium inhibit magnesium absorption. Diagnosis is often made on the basis of clinical signs but a blood test can be done to determine mineral concentrations in the horse’s blood. In the case of an attack, veterinary attention must be sought immediately. Treatment may include intravenous injections of calcium producing a spontaneous recovery.

 

[Elno]

Still an area that interests me greatly. Thanks, PurBee for v. informative posts.

Great suggestion on researching bone mineral domestic v wild... I often think that maybe we give too much grass/forage/feed/supplements, and what we are really balancing here in the domestic world of horses is actually the "too much of a good thing" effect. Whereby, there is already an excess in the system, and the result of that is the behavioural issues, so we add whatever mineral we get sold that works (temporarily), then we get kidney/digestive/liver issues down the line.

Why don't we just, first of all, strip it all back for 12 weeks, and see what happens at the end (as during that phase it'll be the "rebalancing" of the horses' system. If at the end of that trial separation from an abundance of nutrients, there is still an issue, you have a better chance of knowing what - at the very least you might find out it's actually the grass/hay that is the problem orrr.... not. Start there, and test the soil/grass.

After all, the horse evolved to live on practically nothing and is extremely efficient. All the excess is just excreted anyway.

Remember, advertising works on selling you something you think you haven't got and plays on your FOMO. I'm a sucker for it too....

Exactly.

I have had a hard time wrapping my head around the whole supplement-thing, especially since some equine veterinarians say that supplementing vitamins, minerals, whatever is not necessary at all and that they see more and more horses with issues because of over-supplementing rather than horses with actual deficiencies.

I think in our effort to do what is best for the horse we unfortunately do too much, and end up harming them. How can we possibly know how much to supplement of mineral X, especially since if we give to much of X then mineral Y will be effected, which in turns effects mineral Z etc etc...and even with a forage/soil analysis (which is a rough estimate anyways and the quality depends on how well you've sampled) and analysis of the amount of mineral X in the supplement how much is actually metabolised in the horse's system in the end?