Magnetic Boots

[SunSmile]

Has anyone used magnetic boots? What did you use them for? Would you recommend them? My mare has bad feet, she was diagnosed with flat pedal bones 4years ago(approx), had a years corrective shoeing and is now ok, she hunts, jumps, hacks and leads a normal life but can be a bit pottery on stoney ground etc and if she loses a front shoe gets very sore very quickly. I was just wondering whether it would be worth trying magnetic boots? I would like to add she was 5* vetted last summer and passed on all flexion tests/lameness tests etc so is not a lame horse.

 

[Tierra]

Magnetic boots increase blood circulation, which in turn aids the body's ability to heal itself. As such, they're useful for conditions related to, or that can be aided by increased circulation.

The condition you refer to sounds more to do with conformation? In which case magnetic boots wont do much for that. (I could be completly wrong on the condition though!)

Ive used magnetic therapy products for about 10 years on a whole range of horses, both with and without problems. My current horse has them on overnight for general maintenance.

If you choose them, make sure you're careful about what you buy. If you want to use them in the stable, you need wraps, not boots. Boots are generally neoprene lined and will make the legs sweat, causing problems. Aerborn certainly do some leg wraps suitable for stable use.

Please note if you do choose to buy some though, dont ever use them if your horse has an open injury where there could be a risk of infection (e.g. if it comes in with a kick / cut from the field). Magnotherapy can create a whole manner of problems if used under these circumstances.

 

[merlinsquest]

I have been using Bioflow boots for merlins arthritic fetlock, and they seem to be doing the trick. He is much better as a result of wearing them. I do however use the boots overnight, and he does not get sweaty legs under the boots... he might be on his own there though!!

So I would recommend them for arthritis, but as the above poster says, they wont really help with a conformation problem.

 

[Thunder]

I've used them on Satin, and will again once I repair them (thank you madam) She had concussion and stress laminitus and astounded the vet with he rapid recovery (although I do add, she's as mad as a box of frogs anyway, so wasn't going to stay down for long)

I've also used them on myself for torn and sprained ligaments. I was amazed with the results, far far more effective than my previous treatment (physio, heat therapy, ultra sound, sports massage and interferrential)

Fair enough I now stick to the odd passing car, but I've learned to embrace the free ride and can regularly be seen whizzing along on the side of a double decker singing "Magical Mystery Ride"

 

[puddicat]

Quote: "Magnetic boots increase blood circulation, which in turn aids the body's ability to heal itself. As such, they're useful for conditions related to, or that can be aided by increased circulation."

Yeah, its funny people believe this when it's so easy to show that it is not remotely true. Magnetic boots haven't got the slightest chance of increasing blood flow and they don't. Even though its a totally rediculous idea that could only be true if much of modern science was incorrect, it's still been looked for and not found. Neither will you find it on any marketing material for magnetic boots because there are still laws in this country that prevent blatant untruths in advertising. If you think you've read it somewhere, go back and look carefully and you'll probably find you've been tricked by clever wording into assuming it must be true.

There have been lots of threads on magnetic boots on this forum in which the subject has been thoroughly discussed so you might find it useful to use the search facility at the bottomof the page to find some af them and have a read.

The very strong likelihood is they do absolutely nothing. And before the boot-lovers pile in to say how science doesn't know everything and of course they work, I'd ask you to consider that the reasoning that says magnetic healing is a delusion of human psychology is the same reasoning that has led to IVF, heart transplants, gene therapy, MRI, communication satellites, mobile phones, GPS navigation, theipod etc etc. so perhaps on balance it might be sensible to go with science on this one. Also don't think for a moment that there is something mystical about magnetism that science has yet to discover. The laws of electromagnetism were worked out at the beginning of the 20th century are known in great detail, as is the physiology of circulation. There are areas where magnetism may have an effect on physiology (could be good, could be bad, that's another human weakness, always believeing that mystical remedies can only do good, you never hear anyone saying "I put magnetic earrings on my horse and it made him ill") but (1) its not going to have the miraculous effects that people believe they've seen (2) it isn't going to do what people think it does.

 

[Chills]

I have used magnetic boots on my horse when he was diagnosed with Degenerative Joint Disease in his front coffin joints and arthritis in his hind fetlock. He was very bad and stiff and on loads of medication to make him comfortable, but not on a high dose of bute, as I was worried about the side effects. After a couple of months I decided to try magnetic boots. He wore magnetic over reach boots on the front feet for the coffin joint problem, and I have to say that for whatever reason, there was a definite improvement, he was certainly more comfortable and didn't trip half so much. So in my experience, I would say that they did work. I think it probably depends on each horse, and don't think they will be a miracle cure - but each to their own.
Puddicat, I understand your points, but I do think you have to go on personal experience, not just science.

 

[Tierra]

Interesting.

If you want to be specific about it then no, there is no evidence for the increase of circulation. What there has been evidence for is an increase in the efficiency of which the blood is able to carry oxygen and also remove toxins. It's not actually understood why this occurs, but is believed to be the reason that people see effects from using magnotherapy on both animals and people.

You may also find some interesting research conducted about the effects of magnotherapy on saline solutions (which blood is classified as to my knowledge).

I can assure you i have no interest or delusions about mystical properties

What I do have is my own experience of magnotherapy which, as I mentioned, Ive used for a long long time now (both static field magnotherapy products such as wraps and electro magnetic field machines). Nor do i believe that the products have some psychosematic effect on me. I dont believe they do miracles, I dont believe they cure anything. I quite SPECIFICALLY mentioned that there are cases where magnotherapy products shouldn't be used and can indeed cause more harm to an existing problem.

My vet, chiro and physio are all happy for me to use the products on my horse. None of them claim they're going to work miracles and nor do i, but honestly, the tone of your post comes across like you're treating me as stupid; which btw, Im not.

 

[Thunder]

Iron is contained in red blood cells.

Iron is metallic.

It is possible that the attraction of iron to the magnet causes a localised increase in blood flow.

Incidently, speaking of magnets, did you know a homing pigeon homes less accurately with a bar magnet fixed to it's head?.... Just thought I'd mention it...

 

[Tierra]

My vet went into depth with me regarding his theories on magnetic products and he certainly mentioned the iron content of blood. Unfortunatly, much beyond that and it went way over my head

Thanks for mentioning it however!

As for the homing pigeon........ assume it's to do with the earth's natural magnetic field?

Gotta feel sorry for the pigeon though

 

[merlinsquest]

I used them before merlin had the IRAP therapy, and before the shock wave therapy was completed. All he had had done were the x-rays, and the vet said that when he came to do the second shock wave treatment 'he could not believe the improvement in his fetlock'!!! He also said that the improvement was unlikely to have been down to one session of shock wave therapy.

So I would say that even if there is no 'proof' that they work the 'fact' is that they often do!!

He wears them most nights on his hinds and on the days when his legs have been too wet to put them on they are much more filled the next day!!

They are also fairly expensive, and i dont think that people would recommend them if they had no effect what so ever!!

I was also told that they helped the blood to carry toxins away and oxygen to not only the affected limb but the whole body... therefore if his hind legs need a change they go on his fronts!! again there is less puffiness in the morning in the hind fetlocks... so obviously its not just the 'having boots on' effect.

Just because it cant be proved doesnt mean its not true.... otherwise religion would be on a pretty stick wicket me thinks!!

 

[puddicat]

If you want to be specific about it then no, there is no evidence for the increase of circulation.

I think the word might be 'accurate' rather than 'specific'!

What there has been evidence for is an increase in the efficiency of which the blood is able to carry oxygen and also remove toxins.

No there isn't, so perhaps you would like to give the references for the study(ies) you believe show this, authors, title, journal, year will do.

You may also find some interesting research conducted about the effects of magnotherapy on saline solutions (which blood is classified as to my knowledge).

Nope its ridiculous to classify a fluid like blood which contains many large and small molecules with NaCl aq. I am happy to discuss this point with you at any level of detail. Neither is there any significant or relevant effect on saline from the levels of magnetism used in 'magnotherapy'. If that was true, the physical laws of electromagentism and our understanding of electrodynamics would be wrong. Given that they have formed the basis of microelectronics, chemistry andare used to understand the molecular basis of biology you are faced with a choice. You either believe mobile phones exist or what you have read about magnotherapy is correct but you can't have it both ways! The most likely mechanism for any perceived effect from magnetic bots is a combination of a statistical anomaly and a particualar, well known, psychological trait of humans to associate events. Nothing more.

I quite SPECIFICALLY mentioned that there are cases where magnotherapy products shouldn't be used and can indeed cause more harm to an existing problem.

But you have no idea how it might work or what it does so you have no idea when it will cause harm and should not be used. You're simply guessing, you can provide no scientific evidence whatsoever.

My vet, chiro and physio are all happy for me to use the products on my horse.

Yes, asking around the general feeling is that there is no point in arguing with a horse owner that wants to use these treatments. The current view of science is that they have no effect so the path of least resistance is for the vet to say "you use them if you want to".

 

[Thunder]

puddicat,

I assume from your posts you're a scientist (the challenge re papers for example)

I hate myself for saying this, but feel it's necessary...

I too am a scientist and hope that when I've argued about anything scientific I haven't come across as pompous as you are here.

Apologies people,

Oh and Tierra, you were right about the magnetic field...

 

[Thunder]

Further to my previous (If I haven't alienated puddicat completely) here is the ref to a paper looking at effects of magnetic therapy on an increase in peripheral circulation...

Effect of the alternative magnetic stimulation on peripheral circulation for regenerative medicine. Biomedecine & Pharmacotherapy, Volume 59, Supplement 1, October 2005, Pages S174-S176 T. Yambe et al.

 

[dozzie]

Really interested in your scientific knowledge. Have PMd you.

 

[puddicat]

Quote: Iron is contained in red blood cells.
Iron is metallic.

and your point is??? It sounds as if you are simply making an elementary mistake that I would not expect of a GCSE level student: Iron in compounds such as haemoglobin does not exhibit the magnetic properties that iron as a metal has. Haemoglobin is not magnetic, it is not attracted to magnets.

It is possible that the attraction of iron to the magnet causes a localised increase in blood flow.

No this is absolute and utter nonsense, you have to be *grossly* ignorant of basic physics and chemistry to say this. (1) There is NO free iron in the blood to be attracted to a magnet and (2) the iron bound into compounds in the blood is not attracted to magnets (3) even if it were it would it would be attracted to the location of the magnet causing local occlusion of the blood vessel and hence reduce blood flow.

Incidently, speaking of magnets, did you know a homing pigeon homes less accurately with a bar magnet fixed to it's head?.... Just thought I'd mention it...

Yes I'm familiar with the research in this area and the principles involved, they have nothing in common with any supposed theraputic effect, unless you would like to explain otherwise.

 

[LauraBR]

Puddicat, I am reading all this with interest. I use magnetic boots and notice that on removing them the legs are warmer than they are when removing other boots made of the same neoprene type material?

Is there a reason for this?

 

[Theresa_F]

I have had long discussions with Puddicat and she has totally convinced me why they don't work. I have done some very amature experiements with our clydie. Took the straps off and within a week he was lame, put them back on and he went sound.

I hope to do some more experiments and provide video to Puddicat - when I can persuade my OH to let me take off the straps again. He hates seeing Cairo in pain and is reluctant to have me remove them.

All I can say is that Cairo was very much in pain with coffin joint/pedal bone arthritius - 4 bute a day and stumbling even in walk. Within 2 weeks of putting on the straps that he wears all the time he was practically sound in walk. trot and within a month 2/10 on right rein canter and 1/10 on left rein without bute, the pain in his feet had gone when the vet applied testers.

My vet did recommend trying them - as a last resort.

He is now galloping around on soft ground and really enjoying life and has been off bute ever since.

Made not much difference to his hock stiffness - linseed seems to have had a greater effect, but something works for him on his front legs.

I use straps from magnetic - I have a heavy horse and needed something that could go under the feather and not make him sweat.

 

[Thunder]

How about the paper I've referred you to then puddi?

I don't pretend to know all about magnet therapy, or indeed about circulation, my areas of research are different, I do however retain the basic skill of not patronising people I'm talking to, surely one of the first rules when it comes to effective communication.

Oh, and the pigeon thing was to lighten the atmosphere.

lzt, magnet therapy has been found to increase the peripheral circulation (reported in my earlier reference) which may explain why the legs are warmer - indeed I noticed the same result in my mare and myself.

 

[puddicat]

OK that's interesting, well the first thing I would say is that it would be nice to try to measure the temperature difference so we know there is a genuine effect. That's actually a very simple thing to do these days so I might PM you at some point as see if you're interested in trying it.

In order to answer the question though, lets assume it's genuine. The surface temperature of the leg (I presume you meant the bit beneath the boot) is dependent on the amount of heat being delivered to the surface and the amount being taken away from the surface (there is another factor but I don't think its relevant here). The heat is coming from blood so one reason for increased surface temperature would be increased blood flow. The blood supply to the leg is such that the whole limb blood supply would have to be involved (I can explain this if you want, its to do with where the sub-circuits of circulation are) so we might expect the increase in temperature would not be local to the boot area.

The amount of heat taken away depends on how good a conductor of heat is in contact with the surface, air is not particularly good but it has a habit of moving around so heat gets carried away due to convection. Water, as everyone knows, is good at conducting heat hence if you want to remove heat from a leg turning a hosepipe on it is hard to beat. So the first thing to check would be the thermal conductivity of the boots and their thickness. A thicker boot with a lower thermal conductivity would give you a warmer leg. This is analogous to wearing a warmer coat. Establishing the thermal conductivity of the boots is a slightly harder thing to do but not impossible. Incidentally the same method has been used to evaluate numnahs, the idea being to develop numnahs that get the heat away from the saddle area and [possibly] reduce sweating.

So my guess would be that the temperature difference could be accounted for by differences in the material properties and structure of the boots!

 

[Thunder]

I can see your argument regarding the material of the boots being a factor, however what about the Japanese study. I only skim read the abstract but would think, to be published in a journal having got through the referees then a thing such as that would have been addressed.

 

[puddicat]

What happens in the physical world and what people perceive happens are different ithings. For aspects of the world that matter to human existence and a good deal else besides, our perception corresponds to reality. This is what you'd expect, after all us humans are adapted to live in the real world. It also means we are very ill equipped to deal with cases when perception does not reflect reality.

So I would say that even if there is no 'proof' that they work the 'fact' is that they often do!!

You are forgetting what it is to be human: "they appear to work", I wouldn't dispute that.

They are also fairly expensive, and i dont think that people would recommend them if they had no effect what so ever!!

I agree that people recommed them because they think they work, that doesn't mean that they do anything.

I was also told that they helped the blood to carry toxins away and oxygen to not only the affected limb but the whole body...

Yep I've heard this more frequently recently but can't tie it down to a particular source. There is no good evidence for it.

Just because it cant be proved doesnt mean its not true.... otherwise religion would be on a pretty stick wicket me thinks!!

Well it does depending on how you define 'true', perhaps a better way of thinking of it is whether you base your views on faith or evidence. Experimental Science is based on the idea that if something is real or has an effect in the physcial world, it is possible to obtain evidence for it. Religeous truths are based on faith and no evidence. It so happens that the scientific philosophy for defining truths has been incredibly successful at helping us understand the physical world.

 

[merlinsquest]

I've got really bored now.... far too highbrow and point scoring for my liking!!

All I can say is its a free world and I think they work... So I recommend them and thats that!!

Anyone who thinks they don't work can keep their money in their pockets or buy something else with a stack of scientific data to go with it.... I for one realise I need a dictionary after some of the words used in the Puddicat posts!!!!

Bye all!!

 

[Chills]

I wonder whether Puddicat has ever used magnetic boots!!! My goodness, why have horses when surely scientifically they are proven to be bad for our health !!!! he he

 

[Tia]

When I saw this post, I have to say I was genuinely interested in hearing about them.....now? Well I would tend to agree with your first sentence Merlin.

 

[Tia]

Bumble bees should never be capable of flying.........

 

[Davelee]

I'm not a scientist or don't claim to have any great knowledge in this area, but as a final year physio student i do know we use pulse short wave, a form of electrotherapy that works by creating a magnetic field.

This magnetic field can be effected by different settings and thus aimed at specific tissue, we are taught that this magnetic field alters cell membrane potential (Gaited channles on phospholipid bilayer being effected by charged particles) and thus permeability to proteins..allowing removal of inflammatory toxins.

We are also told the charges effect red blood cells and increase blood flow to area...heat effect from boot may induce vasodilation?! dunno..i'm guessing at last part!

Increasing availability of oxygen to area and thus metabolism, speeding up cell division etc?

I have only relayed what i have been told by lecturers and what i understand by this, i know pulsed shortwave combined with therapeutic exercises etc, has worked with my patients who have had swollen joints etc (measured and compared)

I am a firm believer that magnetic boots have helped with a few horses on my yard but don't think they should be a sole treatment or thought of as a miracle!!

Please dont rip me to shreds puddicat!!!

 

[puddicat]

(wasn't ignoring you, just on a slow line)

I assume from your posts you're a scientist (the challenge re papers for example)

Hmm that's a bit of a dangerous assumption, I know a bit about physics, chemistry, and how animals work certainly. There was no need to make such a big deal of calling me pompous, it's good to know I achieved the effect I was after.

Oh and Tierra, you were right about the magnetic field...

based on what exactly ?

I only skim read the abstract but would think, to be published in a journal having got through the referees then a thing such as that would have been addressed.

No that's a naive thing for somebody claiming to be a scientist to say. First of all the journal is in the mickey-mouse league of journals (check it out on Web of Knowledge). Everyone in science knows that there is a hierarchy of journals and poor journals have a lower standard of refereeing. Second the paper is in a Supplement edition which are generally not rated by serious scientists (because they are published conference proceedings and refereed to a lower standard). All that taken into consideration, I can not pass a comment on the paper until I've read it in full, which I will endeavour to do.

I notice however you are prepared to say "magnet therapy has been found to increase the peripheral circulation (reported in my earlier reference) which may explain why the legs are warmer" based on you reading of the abstract! No scienctist I know wouldn't dream of endorsing the results of a paper without reading a paper thoroughly, especially one in an area where the experiemntal design is likely to have a crucial impact on the viability of the results.

 

[Thunder]

My reply tierra was re the pigeon, based on the paper which was published about it

My only reading the abstract is due to me having little time free after reading several dozen papers this week in my subject area, I'm rather scienced out as it were.

If writing a paper then of course I wouldn't endorse a paper on reading the abstract only, but then, this is a website not a science conference.

I'm not up for point scoring, and thank you kindly not to pass judgement on my scientific ability based on a couple of posts in a forum. I can assure you my thesis is of a more thorough and higher quality than any of my posts on here.

It would however appear from your other posts that my initial opinion of you as being pompous was sadly correct. As for wishing to achieve that air, well, it says a lot about you, not all of which I would print.

Oh, and isn't the first form of attack on a paper not liked to go for where it was published... There are probably more quality papers out there on the subject, at present however I've not the time to research it.

This could have been a really interesting debate and topic, instead of which you chose to patronise anyone who took part, and paint yourself in a totally unappealing light. I'm just glad I'm not the only poster in this thread that has formed this opinion.

 

[puddicat]

Bumble bees should never be capable of flying.........

Not sure what the point of this comment was but it might be interesting to note that
no-one ever thought this, it's a hoax that has passed into legend. The lift generated by bumblebees can be explained by vortex shedding.

 

[Tia]

[ QUOTE ]
it might be interesting to note that no-one ever thought this

[/ QUOTE ]

No-one ever thought this? Yes.....interesting.




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