Magnetic Therapy

RubysGold said:
could you please tell me what that means?
what are Dynamic and Static magnets :S
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Sure, sorry I should have been clearer :o

Static magnetic 'therapy' is basically a magnet or set of magnets stuck into a boot/rug etc. The magnetic field does not change (except to become weaker over time or through inappropriate storage etc)

Dynamic magnet therapy is also called electromagnetism or pulsed magnetism, and is controlled by an electronically powered device. Basically the magnetic field created is not 'static', it energises and de-energises in a pulse effect. In addition the current actually flows through the tissue in a circuit when being used therapeutically :)

There were a few small scale experimental studies in humans which appeared to demonstrate increased healing times in fractures/increased collagen production when dynamic magnetic therapy was used, but this was mains powered, several hundred thousand times the power of the 'pulsed' magnetic rugs you can buy for horses. The studies were not repeated (or if they were they were never published) and are fairly dated, but I don't think they can be completely discounted.

All the claims into static magnets working on the other hand.... There have been several successful law suits in recent years for companies making false claims of efficacy :)
 
Thank you :)
The dynamic type sounds really interesting! I hadnt heard of it before.

It is strange that the static ones would be inefficient (although from your description I can work out why theyre not) but I swear by mine. I get painful knees and my magnetic knee support gets rid of the pain in 20-30 minutes! I suppose it COULD be psychological (cant remember what thats called, when something stops hurting because you know youve taken x for it, like people say about rescue remedy), who knows.
Ill stop waffling now :D
 
RubysGold said:
Thank you :)
The dynamic type sounds really interesting! I hadnt heard of it before.

Ill stop waffling now :D
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Don't stop, it's interesting.

I'm probably being a little mean posting this on here, but has anyone tried out any magnetic water therapy products? For example (taken from actual advertisements):

OzWater is advanced, MICROSTRUCTURED water.
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Watt-Ahh is a new water based on a patent-pending process that reforms and polarizes H2O the way nature intended, using a novel method of polarizing water by a technology known as MAGNETOHYDRODYNAMICS.
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Advanced Hydration Technology (AHT) water has a FASTER DIFFUSION RATE than ordinary water.
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EON water is engineered with technology that restructures the water into BIOMOLECULAR CLUSTERS.
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Liquid Zeolite Water has a high-energy 114° HYDROGEN BOND ANGLE compared with tap water, which has a low-energy hydrogen bond angle of 104°. After breaking down the hydrogen bond angle, diseased cells can't survive in the high-blood-oxygen environment. Also, opening up the hydrogen bond angle enables your blood to circulate more oxygen.
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Now can you see why I'm a cynical old bat? :D
 
Placebo effect is the term you are looking for :)

Thats why I am more interested in seeing the effects on animals than humans, on things that can be quantifiably measured without human bias. Then you get the odd sod of an example like my dog which you really and truly can't explain in line with curent scientific understanding :D

Rhino thanks (and do I know you in person? You are investigating things which suggeat our paths may have crossed). I hadnt realised that study was on dynamic magnets. :)
 
Naturally said:
Then you get the odd sod of an example like my dog which you really and truly can't explain in line with curent scientific understanding :D

Rhino thanks (and do I know you in person? You are investigating things which suggeat our paths may have crossed). I hadnt realised that study was on dynamic magnets. :)
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I doubt it, my background is biochemistry/diagnostics and I'm only a hobby scientist now anyway :D Magnet therapy is just an interest as it is so widely marketed and used.

I note the current scientific understanding in your first paragraph, very salient point as that is the beauty of science. It changes, according to knowledge! Wouldn't it be boring if we could explain everything? :)

Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved.
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(Tim Minchin, Storm)
 
Naturally said:
Placebo effect is the term you are looking for :)

Thats why I am more interested in seeing the effects on animals than humans, on things that can be quantifiably measured without human bias. Then you get the odd sod of an example like my dog which you really and truly can't explain in line with curent scientific understanding :D
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Apparently there is such a thing a "placebo by proxy"...

http://www.bmj.com/content/343/bmj.d4345

(Hope everyone can see that page!)
 
Thanks for your very knowledgable input on this post. It is very interesting to read. You scientific types always like to have hard facts about your subjects ( my brother is an astrophysicist ) lol. So how do you think this ' magnetic therapy' evolved as an aid to healing etc as it must have started somewhere? or maybe it was as simple as somebody seeing a market for gulllible people!

answers on a post card................ ;-)
 
fburton said:
Ah, but have you tried sticking LEDs up your nose for hayfever relief? Introducing the RhinoFit(tm)...

http://www.davita-shop.co.uk/light-therapy-essentials/hay-fever-and-allergy.html

Don't knock it till you've tried it (for only £60 from Amazon). Definitely not to be sneezed at! ;)
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:D :D :D Don't know about scientific input but they could have done with a proof reader.

*conditioned
*phototherapy (not great when they can't spell their own product correctly, consistently)
 
Ah yes, placebo effect thats the term :)

Now it may just be because Im tired, but that rather complicated explanation of placebo by proxy went straight over my head!! Is it basically; I think magnets work on my horse, but it may be that I know she has magnets which make me "think" they're working and imagine it?
 
You can explain the placebo effect all you like im pretty sure my horse wont understand it. But when i see an arthritic old horse stiff and on pain relief walk up the field without the magnets for a couple of days, then bounce out to the field and take off bucking and leaping all 4 feet off the ground after wearing them again, im pretty sure its a bit more than a placebo effect :D
 
marydoll said:
You can explain the placebo effect all you like im pretty sure my horse wont understand it. But when i see an arthritic old horse stiff and on pain relief walk up the field without the magnets for a couple of days, then bounce out to the field and take off bucking and leaping all 4 feet off the ground after wearing them again, im pretty sure its a bit more than a placebo effect :D
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No, I bet it's the magic fairy dust you sprinkle on his/her legs before you put the boots on that does it :p :D
 
Yes. I had a 24 yr old WelshDxTB mare who had arthritis and jumped over an electric fence, which did her no good at all. A few weeks later, she was so lame that she was hobbling and 2x bute daily was having no effect at all. The next step was pts.
In desperation, and on a friend's recommendation (her pony is laminitic), I rang the local Bioflow agent. He brought me some magnetic boots that evening.
The mare wore them for 24 hrs, went out in the morning as usual, not much difference tbh BUT came back in at teatime (so 24 hrs after they were put on) TROTTING in and apparently sound. She continued to wear them for 12 hrs per day for the next 3 months and the boots continued to be effective. She would offer me her feet to have the boots put on - I used to swap diagonals. Unfortunately she then had a stroke in the stable and was pts. I have used the boots on other horses, with varying results and none as dramatic as this mare's.
 
RubysGold said:
Ah yes, placebo effect thats the term :)

Now it may just be because Im tired, but that rather complicated explanation of placebo by proxy went straight over my head!! Is it basically; I think magnets work on my horse, but it may be that I know she has magnets which make me "think" they're working and imagine it?
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Yep.

Doesn't convince me that's what is going on when you see a dramatic effect. It might be what's going on if you kinda maybe sort of can see a small difference.

I happen to think the reverse is also true: people will say "I don't think magnets work" and the won't see that their horse has actually improved.

Rhino's just a mean old cynic ;) :p
 
Naturally said:
Rhino's just a mean old cynic ;) :p
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Yup, about sums me up :D :D

A few years ago a very good friend of mine was studying for an equine undergrad, and at dissertation time she was asked to take part in one of her friend's projects looking at the efficacy (or lack of ;)) of magnetic boots. Friend trialled these boots for a couple of weeks and was saying that they definitely worked, the horse was moving better, and that the legs were definitely 'hotter' after use.

Me, mean old cynic that I am, wanted a closer look at what was in the pocket of the boots. Bits of cardboard :D :D No magnets whatsoever!

Now my friend was not stupid, she is a very good horsewoman but she was convinced that she (a) had the magnetic boots, not the placebos, and (b) that they were working, the legs were warmer and the horse working better... Of course there is the possibility that the horse was indeed 'going better' due to wearing boots and the heat that they generate (ever notice that a lot of the magnet 'therapy' products for horses are made of neoprene - I always wonder if arthritics should wear wetsuits to see if they help... sorry I digress... again :rolleyes: :D )

If you are genuinely interested in 'placebo' in animals have a look at conditioning theory and expectancy theory, both of which can provide answers :D
 
TicTac said:
Thanks for your very knowledgable input on this post. It is very interesting to read. You scientific types always like to have hard facts about your subjects ( my brother is an astrophysicist ) lol. So how do you think this ' magnetic therapy' evolved as an aid to healing etc as it must have started somewhere? or maybe it was as simple as somebody seeing a market for gulllible people!

answers on a post card................ ;-)
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Let me know how you get on TicTac, I hope you get some benefit.:)
 
rhino said:
Yup, about sums me up :D :D

A few years ago a very good friend of mine was studying for an equine undergrad, and at dissertation time she was asked to take part in one of her friend's projects looking at the efficacy (or lack of ;)) of magnetic boots.

...

If you are genuinely interested in 'placebo' in animals have a look at conditioning theory and expectancy theory, both of which can provide answers :D
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SHUTUPSHUTUPshutupshutupshutup... Just when I thought we could be friends :mad:

I am doing my stupid dissertation at the moment and the stupid horses and the stupid handlers didn't prove what I thought they would prove, and now I'm having to go into conditioning and cr*p like that, when actually I want to be waxing lyrical about much more exciting and revolutionary stuff.


*sigh*
 
Naturally said:
SHUTUPSHUTUPshutupshutupshutup... Just when I thought we could be friends :mad:

I am doing my stupid dissertation at the moment and the stupid horses and the stupid handlers didn't prove what I thought they would prove, and now I'm having to go into conditioning and cr*p like that, when actually I want to be waxing lyrical about much more exciting and revolutionary stuff.


*sigh*
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Ooh, what's your title? :D
 
rhino said:
Ooh, what's your title? :D
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I don't even know any more. Does the the state of mind of the human affect the successful completion of a basic natural horsemanship task commonly used in equine facilitated learning (I think!). Aim of project being, there's been a lot of research into does EFL work, but not a lot into how does it work.

They were supposed to be more accurate and faster when they visualised it going well. They didn't :rolleyes:
 
Naturally said:
I don't even know any more. Does the the state of mind of the human affect the successful completion of a basic natural horsemanship task commonly used in equine facilitated learning (I think!). Aim of project being, there's been a lot of research into does EFL work, but not a lot into how does it work.

They were supposed to be more accurate and faster when they visualised it going well. They didn't :rolleyes:
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:D :D Don't worry, some of the best dissertations I've read have been like yours - it really is more down to your reasoning rather than 'what' you do! And you will have plenty to put in your next steps/further work :p

Mine had the title of 'Badgers: tb or not tb' which I used as a joke; supervisor loved it, so it stuck! :eek: :eek: We did think up a more 'normal' name when submitting for publication though :D
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1081320/pdf/0951-04.pdf
if you're ever really bored and need to sleep! ;) :cool:
 
Brilliant title!

Back to magnets, I had horrendous plantar fasciitis, and a woman on a stall at a horse show tried to convince me that magnetic innersoles were the solution to my woes. I don't quite remember how, but I left unconvinced convinced she was a scam artist without having paid £20 for the innersoles, when I was actually quite open to the idea of magnets working.

Months later I saw a pair of magnetic insoles in a cheapy shop, £2. Great! I thought, and bought them to try, not realising that they were cheap plastic insoles... with actual round metal magnets inserted into the plastic. Most. Painful. Thing. Ever. to stand on :rolleyes:
 
Discussing this with my vet recently, him and about four of his staff who were around agreed there needed to be more research to prove that magnets work in certain cases for certain ailments.
I have used a magnet on myself and I felt no difference, my 18 yr old cat however is bounding around like a kitten now with a magnetic collar on.
 
Paris1 said:
Discussing this with my vet recently, him and about four of his staff who were around agreed there needed to be more research to prove that magnets work in certain cases for certain ailments.
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I'm not sure how much point there is doing any more research at the present time. There is already an abundance, all showing absolutely no efficacy above placebo. The 'believers' will continue to use regardless.. The companies themselves are happy enough being classed as a 'health' product and not a 'medical' product, they manage to get out of having to demonstrate safety, let alone efficacy. Though after repeated lawsuits some are still trying to claim that they work :rolleyes:

Either people believe they work, or they believe they don't (and are harmless). Sorry, but there's no such thing as a free lunch. If something is capable of having an effect it is capable of having a side effect. One of the most basic scientific principles there is.

However, have a google of 'Hardware disease' in cattle if you want to see magnets being used therapeutically :D
 
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