Major Panic - majorly long. Opinions on movement (including vid)

[Patches]

Ok, so I was reading a post on HHO about OCD and one search lead to another and now I'm utterly convinced Patches is bilaterally lame behind.

I have a video of Harley riding patches last summer in a group lesson. It was the middle of the heat wave and Harley was coming to the end of an hours lesson and was nearly dead with exhaustion! (I kid you not). Patches is one of those horses that makes you work twice as hard as she does and this affects Harley's position. She doesn't normally ride Patches with this hand/shoulder rocking, it was simply a result of her being knackered (for want of a better word).

Well, history. Patches has ALWAYS dragged her hind toes from the day Lucy had her (I'm right aren't I Luce?). I don't know if Lucy ever had her looked at by a vet (I don't if I've asked or not lol) for this problem in the past. When I bought her she passed a five stage vetting. Backed up ok, turned in tight circles ok and her gait didn't alter after flexions. I knew she had this problem and it was a bit of a concern, but she ticked every other box and the vet told me not to worry, so I put it out of my mind. I was after all little more than a beginner and wasn't expecting to wish to tax Patches much physically.

Now, Patches has been everything and more to me and I love her to pieces. She's a perfect match for me. However, recently I've gotten a few strange looks out riding her from other people on horse or walking. It's gotten me a bit self conscious about it the further I've come. I'm getting to a stage where I want to go out and "do things" with her and expecting her to work better. I'm not sure if I'm asking too much of her given she has this abnormal gait.

I've had her looked at by a vet on three separate occasions and mentioned this toe dragging each time. (Although I admit I was at the vet's for other reasons). Each time the vets haven't been at all concerned by her gait and have just said "it's probably just the way she goes". She's not been x-rayed or blocked though on her hocks (as I assume the hocks are strongest suspect here.

After her knee op, Patches was on VERY high doses of bute and the toe dragging didn't stop, box rest didn't stop the problem or make it worse. She's been on a joint supplement for 4 weeks from the vet, no improvement as yet.

Things I notice....

Obviously the toe dragging...although I call it more of a tapping during the stride.
Hard to engage
Snatches foot up under her when picking it out and for farrier (worse on the right side) but does relax it after a few seconds.
Walking down hill she doesn't like to walk straight (unless she's on her toes for some reason), she almost wants to leg yield down steep hills.
She used to stumble alot, although with farriery this has stopped.

Now, she used to drag them all the time at walk and trot and now it's not at every stride. Often she won't drag for most of the ride in walk, but I do still hear her some of the time in trot, be it uphill or on the level. She doesn't do it in canter.

She leaves divets in the fields where she drags her toes as she trots about (highly annoying! lol)

My problem is, we're taking her to a Clear Round on Thursday and I'm sitting here worried now about what people will say when they see her move. I don't want people thinking I'm working a lame horse.

What would you do? Vets are really un-concerned.

Here's the clip......so sorry Harley. Please don't judge her riding. She was majorly shattered. I do think Patches swings her head from side to side in response to the movement in Harley's very tired hands though. (sowwwwy Harley!) Patches really is hard to keep going as you'll see from the amount of leg Harley has to use.

 

[Tia]

There is quite clearly something not right there. It seem more like a mechanical issue to me, however, have you had checks for the onset of arthritis?

I know you have pretty much had all you can have checked on her and no-one has come up with anything as yet. I hope you find out what is wrong as you obviously adore her.

 

[Patches]

Thank you for your reply Tia.

I've not had any specific checks done on her. The only thing I've done is mentioned it to three separate vets when they've been viewing her for other things. Each time I've been told something along the lines of "oh don't worry about that, lots of horses do it" or "that's nothing" (I read between the lines that was to mean...that's nothing..you want to worry about this at the front end lol).

The vetting vet said it was maybe "something like stringhalt but not stringhalt and I shouldn't worry" as she'd had it for four years and it was better not worse over that time (ermmmm d'oh stringhalt but not....how contradictory) and he also mentioned it was possibly a mild form of UFP, but not locking, more of a jerky release during the stride.

I'm aware that if I constantly take her back to the vets they could do numerous expensive, and maybe even invasive, tests on her. Lets face it, it's money to them when some mad over anxious owner is practically begging them to say their horse is lame! I just wish I knew what it was and could stop worrying if it's nothing to worry about, or realise any potential limits.

I'm getting to a stage where I want to do more with her and I'm not sure if that's of benefit to her physically or not.

 

[Tierra]

Hmmmm. You're right, she has a very peculiar movement behind.

Ive come across horses have odd movement behind when they aren't working correctly (i.e. not connected through their backs etc), but never to that degree.

Interestingly you mentioned snapping away the leg when the farrier is handling it which is quite a symptom of a shiverer - yet it doesnt sound like the other symptoms particularly fit. Similarly snapping the back leg off the ground when trotting can be a bit indicative of stringhalt, but im not sure she's snapping enough for it to suggest that and the cases ive known with stringhalt havent looked "off" behind, they just have an abnormally high leg movement behind.

If you trot her up on a loose line, does her head nod? Or if you lunge her for example?

Has she ever been seen by a physio or osteo? Just wondering along the lines of any issues through her pelvis (although again, while i can see this would make her look "off" im not convinced it would account for the toe dragging).

It could be a confirmation issue... i'd certainly have been intrigued to know if she did this as a foal...

In all honestly, have you considered having a specialist look at her? There has been some fabulous advancements in gait analysis and it could be the route to get to the bottom of it.

The thing is, you dont seem to believe the vet telling you she's ok and I think the only way for those thoughts to go away is to perhaps delve a bit further. If she was mine, I'd certainly be keen to know whats going on (if anything at all) as you're right, she does look rather off behind.

 

[Tierra]

How long have you had her? For me if it was arthritic changes you'd see differences in the actual abnormality. Could certainly be worth x raying of course but i would seriously look at contacting some of the specialists over here and see what diagnostical work they can do.

 

[Patches]

Problem I have is that i don't have a bottomless pit for expensive investigations on a whim that I have. As in....vet says not to worry....that'll do hubby just fine thank you very much.

It was mentioned on her vetting certificate that she dragged her toes, although not excluded on insurance. However, obviously I'd not be able to claim for any tests or treatment and going down that route would clearly exclude her legs full stop on renewal.

I know this sounds horrid. But my worst fear is that someone will say I mustn't ride her again. If this happens, then I don't know what I'd do with her. She's not the easiest horse to handle from the ground....pretty high maintenance. I'd hate to come to resent having to handle her stroppiness daily. How she "pays me back" under saddle more than makes up for how she is from the ground.

The last time she was lunged on a hard surface on a tight circle she was actually lame. This was when she had her feet issues and the balance of her feet was addressed. I've not lunged her on a proper hard surface since then as our yard isn't big enough and the driveway is gravel and uneven.

I really need to take her back to the vets. I'm just anxious that they'll help me invent a problem to shut me up!

 

[Patches]

I've had her 18 months and in that time the toe dragging has lessened, not worsened. Lucy had her for four years before me and she had always done it whilst she owned her.

 

[Tia]

I don't remember if I told you about what Trixie's breeder said to me about the night she left for Ontario.....but it has me thinking here. What is Patches history BEFORE Lucy owning her? Indulge me for a moment.

 

[Lottie7]

I have to say the video doesn't look half as bad as I was expecting after reading your post. The only thing I would say is have you considered EPSM only that can have stringhalt type symptoms. The snatching the leg up rings bells. It might be worth reading the lookalike conditions listed by Beth Valentine on the Rural Heritage web site. A light tweak in feeding may be all it takes. Unbelievable I know.

I hope you get to the bottom of it. A mild problem like this can be like looking for a needle in a haystack and I think you are wise not to steam in with all sorts of tests. Difficult though, I know.
x

 

[Patches]

I don't really know. We'd have to wait for Lucy's input on that one. I know she bought her as a 3 year old at the same time that they bought Frankie, but's that it.

Sorry.

 

[Tierra]

Hmmm. Well I cant see it being osteo-arthritic type changes. In 18 months -personally- i'd be expecting to see it worsening. Not just that but you mentioned that bute didnt make any difference (really with arthritis it should). I'd also expect a horse with that kind of condition to trot up worse after flexion tests which she obviously didnt. Equally, you'd expect good days and bad days depending on weather, work load and so on. For example, if she'd been left in, it should worsen and then ease slightly with work.

I do understand your feelings regarding diagnostic work as it can get pricey. On the other hand, its obviously bothering you as it is so left alone, are you going to be happy to keep working her?

Have you considered having someone like Gavin Schofield take a look? He's one of our countries best equine osteopaths (if not the best), works all over the world and is very good at identifying motor issues within horses. I can PM you his number should you be interested in that (you may have to take Patches to him though... he does clinics all over but doesnt tend to do individual visits anymore unless you happen to be very close to wherever he is). He might be able to at least shed some light on whats going on (or make some suggestions) and doesnt cost the earth.

Theres no way you can trace back to her breeders or anything is there? Id be fascinated to know if this is something she's had all her life as Im not convinced that its joint related (not in the sense of degenerative issues anyway).

Does she respond at all to magnotherapy or anything like that? Does it have *any* effect at all?

I dont think your vet is right to imply that its absolutly nothing to be concerned over as tbh, i dont think its that common. On the other hand, its not getting worse so i wouldnt be beating yourself up over it either

Would you say there is any difference at all if she's really worked - for example, has anyone ever got on her and really managed to get her powering forwards and using herself?

Grasping at straws a bit here

 

[Patches]

Funny you should mention that. I did briefly have her on corn oil early last spring. She was more forward going but when the grass came through I stopped her diet as I couldn't keep the weight off her. She piled it on. The vet advised I stopped feeding oil to such a good do-er.

I perhaps should've sought another alternative. Maybe Beacon horse is still on here and she can have a quick nose at the video.

 

[Tierra]

Just watched the video again and its almost like shes missing a bit of elastic somewhere

I'd be really keen, like Tia, to know how she was in her younger (perhaps foal??) days or if anything happened at all round that age.

 

[Tia]

[ QUOTE ]
Theres no way you can trace back to her breeders or anything is there? Id be fascinated to know if this is something she's had all her life as Im not convinced that its joint related

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes that's where my mind is heading too.

 

[Patches]

The only time I've really seen it go away is if she's all spooky and on her toes. Say I hack out in the high winds. She doesn't do it all then and will even walk downhill normally...almost jogs down where sometimes I have to really ride her downhill as she backs off from walking down steep banks (road banks...she's fine in the fields

That video is not ideal as both her and Harley were shattered. I really can't tell you how hot it was....but I was exhausted just watching! She will track up and infact often over tracks or forges and since having her feet re-balanced a while back, she has to wear over reach boots as she's at great risk of pulling shoes now.

I have wanted to have someone look at her back for a while now but am never sure whether I should go for a chiro, physio, McTimoney etc. My vet did run hands down her spine, as did the saddle fitter, and said that to their mind her back was ok.

Lucy doesn't know anything about her breeding at all. It's puzzled us for some time. My vet did say he felt she conformationally strange in that she was long in the back leg, compared to the front. Don't really have any good conformation shots. This was taken last week:

This one beginning of last month I think

She doesn't walk out in the morning from being in over night any different to how she comes in or is after work. I've taken her on longer rides, done more trotting etc on hacks, and her gait never alters. She used to jump alot with Lucy too.

Not tried her with any magnotherapy. She's a strange one, very stand offish you could say, she doesn't like being messed with as she's see it.

 

[Patches]

That's almost how the vetting vet described it.

He thought she had some sort of upward fixation problems and instead of having a locking of the patella, she had some sort of delayed release that causes her to jerk her leg during the stride.

Not ideal to see her on a surface as it does absorb some of what she does. However, she picks her foot up as normal and then as she swings it back it's as though she taps it back down and it rolls over at the toe and is picked up again. All happens in a split second and you cannot feel it from in the saddle at all.

 

[Patches]

Fraid not. I'd like to know if it's something she's always had too.

Patches is rising 9 now and I know of 5 1/2 of her life. In that time she has always done this and she doesn't wear her feet now half as much as she used to. The tapping is much less pronounced and not as frequent either. Hacking she rarely does it in walk, but still does it in trot. When I had her she'd do it at every step.

If was some mild sort of UFP, you'd expect with the work I have her in that this would have pretty much stopped by now wouldn't you?

 

[Tia]

It does seem like a mild form of UFP to be honest. There are so many similarities albeit the symptoms are not drastic.

I have always believed that Patches problem has been based on a mechanical disorder rather than an issue such as ESPM and not even a lameness issue like navicular........but what? I really don't know.

 

[Tierra]

Hmmmm. Im not really sure what else to say to be honest! Its definitly a strange one. It is almost like some kind of involuntary reflex (like when people have a twitch).

Like Tia, Id be fascinated to know if there was anything bizarre about her birth / early years but Im guessing you're never really going to know about that.

If i was you I wouldnt be panicing about it - more curious than anything else. Regardless of what it is, it could cause you issues in regards to competition I suppose, particularly if you ever went the dressage route. For the sake of clear round jumping, I wouldnt be too concerned (keep her in canter and no one will know

) And tbh, Ive seen genuinely lame lame horses competing at BSJA level - but as you say, you dont want people *assuming* that you're competing a lame horse. Not much way round that really

You just need to be confident in your own opinion and thoughts on the matter.

I'd still consider having someone look at her on a muscular level incase her odd stride causes tightness somewhere round her quarters (which in turn could make the odd stride look worse if you get what I mean).

In terms of *who*.. thats a tough one. I personally dont use physios because of the methods they employ. Some of the "slapping" actions don't agree with my horse and it just ends up being an upsetting experience for him.

I use ostios and chiros and cant rate Gavin Schofield enough. He treated my mare when she degloved her hind leg. It was particularly complex because she over compensated for the hindleg with a strange action in her opposite fore diagonal (although the vets said this wasnt pain related, more self defence of her bad leg). Unlike the physios, Gavin was happy to treat her for HER and take into account her strange action and work with that. The physios just refused to treat her because she wasnt 100% correct (even after the vet advised physio treatment).

Anyway! Need some sleep. Would be interested to hear what Tia has to say regarding her youngster and what she's thinking. We're clearly on the same lines

 

[Tia]

[ QUOTE ]
you'd expect with the work I have her in that this would have pretty much stopped by now wouldn't you

[/ QUOTE ]

That is often the general opinion....however it isn't always the case depending on a number of factors. I'll let you know in 6 months time

.

Some days Trix is absolutely fine - you would never know there was anything wrong with her and then other days she jerks almost every stride.....but not like a normal UFP horse. She can unlock in mid-stride and she is very proficient at dealing with it, however I am not 100% convinced that any amount of muscle build-up will actually solve the problem and right now I am of the belief that in the Autumn Trix may have some surgery....but who knows, I'll wait and see. She certainly isn't in any discomfort as respects to pain, purely mechanical.

 

[Lottie7]

That's interesting. Did the oil actually make a difference though and were you feeding a significant amount? Don't forget, if it is EPSM then the spring grass would not do her any favours at all as it contains sugar. Her heavily muscled stamp is just the type to have EPSM (although I appreciate it can occur in any type).

You see, if it is EPSM then it's a bit of a catch 22. She would need the oil and the moving about but not the grass. You would probably be wise to muzzle her in those circumstances. My own horse is also prone to fat and would be a real porker on grass. However, 2 pints of oil per day did not increase his weight if he was muzzled so the grass intake was restricted.

When she is moving she looks as though she is holding herself which creates a tight picture. This indicates muscle tightness to me. My own EPSM horse moved like this and deep massage physio made him a lot more comfortable. But it is only a temporarly improvement without the diet change.

With regard to past history, this can sometimes be misleading. My own horse is home bred and his EPSM was not discovered until he was 13. Therefore I can now look back over the years and understand how at times he seemed to be going "wrong" and then would be in great form (he evented to intermediate). With hindsight I can see that it was now all connected to his feed and exercise regime. I can nowadays notice how a tiny rash of spring grass can start to make a difference.

Anyway, I'm rattling on. Hope you find a solution.

 

[siennamum]

If I'm absolutely blunt, I think you're blowing this out of proportion. I have had so many cobby horses and ponies and her movement and that little snatch she does behind look prett ordinary.
When you had her on bute, her movement did not change, this would imply that she is not moving strangely because of pain.
I think her hind end conformation is not great, she looks to have issues related to Sacro illiac rather than her joints. If she were mine I would continue with the schooling as the dragging behind is more likely related to simple lack of engagement and not working actively behind (again not uncommon), I would do lots of steady strengthening hill work, up and down. (unbalanced and horses lacking engagement go down hills like crabs) and put her on a decent joint supplement.
Then I owuld get on and enjoy her.
If she's in pain she'll let you know. There are so many horses out there with less than perfect gait or conformation which do a good job of work.
If you were going to do GP dressage or eventing then maybe you would worry. For what you want you'd be better ff spending your money on a few sponsored rides and riding club events.

 

[AmyMay]

Gosh - not seeing what everyone else seems to.

She looks sound as a pound to me. In fact moving rather beautifully - would be even better if the jockey stopped faffing with the reins

Patches - It's a cob, not a TB. You are never going to have the same kind of movement behind as a lighter framed or athletic horse.

Can't see anything wrong with her in the slightest!!!!!!

 

[HBII]

Hi Patches

All I am seeing at the moment is a horse that isnt really working forwards into the bridle enough. She is going very nicely in an outline but there is no engine work from the back end. You need to get her working forwards from the hand to the leg and then worry about where her head is.

You say she doesnt drag when she is on her toes, IMO this is when she has engaged her back end ready for the 'flight' action.

I would like AM has said get on and enjoy her!

I hope I didnt offend - just saying what I see.

Hb

 

[hussar]

Hi Patches

I see what you mean in the video - she is dragging slightly behind and not properly engaged. My youngster dragged his hind toes when a 3-4 yo - it became more obvious once he was shod. Vet and farrier told me not to worry, and sure enough as he became fitter the problem disappeared completely. Maybe Patches just needs better muscle development behind?

 

[Patches]

That is what my vetting vet thought. More work etc.

However, I'm not a competent rider. I muddle along and am in it for fun. Walk, trot, canter and pop an odd jump. That's me. Patches is not easy to get working round and through from behind. Infact, I question whether she physically can do it. I don't think she's capable of "true collection" in the sense that most horse owners expect. She's not designed to be a dressage horse bless her. She falls in, falls out.....doesn't step through. Bless her. Schooling is not her niche.

She jumps a course of fences with ease. She's quite tidy in that sense. Loves to jump. I've done loads of hacking up and down hills with her since I've had her and according to my vet, I should be doing enough to see this disappear - if it was going to.

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
Patches is not easy to get working round and through from behind. Infact, I question whether she physically can do it. I don't think she's capable of "true collection" in the sense that most horse owners expect. She's not designed to be a dressage horse bless her. She falls in, falls out.....doesn't step through. Bless her. Schooling is not her niche.

[/ QUOTE ]
Y'see, again I just do not agree. I think that she's working really nicely in the video. She is asking for the contact and is offering to come on to the bit - which is not being accepted by the rider. Sure the steps could be improved (but what horses couldn't?). She is flexing through her poll and her neck which is what you want and is offering to work from behind.

 

[Tierra]

Personally I dont think its going to at all and I do think she has an odd movement behind - as does the vet obviously.

I mentioned last night that it might just be worth throwing someone on her to really try and get her motoring from behind and working correctly. You are possibly right in saying she isnt built for the ideal outline (cobs usually lack room between their jawbone and atlas to really work up into the bridle. It sounds minor, but infact isnt). That being said, Im sure she could work together much more than she is doing in that movie.

Falling in / out and not stepping under enough are usually schooling issues and it could just be interesting to see if they lessen with a good flatwork rider on board (although Im personally not convinced that they will)

I cant make an educated opinion about what Tia was referring to as its just not something I have any experience with but I was certainly thinking along the same lines as her last night.

In hindsight... I think your vet is likely to be correct in what he's said... Anyway, go take her jumping!

 

[Patches]

I'd love it if someone came to have a go that knows the tricks of the trade, so to speak. She is very hard work and requires a lot of leg.

It was also 90 degrees heat in that video and Harley was near death! Bless her. She doesn't usually "faff" with her reins. (I love that word faff).

What would you suggest, any tips, to help Harley to work her better. I'm a muppet myself, so it's over the head to me. I get on...walk, trot and canter. That's as far as my technical limit extends.

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
What would you suggest, any tips, to help Harley to work her better. I'm a muppet myself, so it's over the head to me. I get on...walk, trot and canter. That's as far as my technical limit extends.

[/ QUOTE ]
90 degrees? well that puts a different perspective on things eh? Poor old Harley

Well, PG, Becky, CrazyJonty would probably be better at advising than me.

But I would tell Harley to shorten her reins somewhat - not an awful lot - and ensure that she takes hold of the front end. Patches is obviously seeking the contact from her. Lots of transitions up and down will help with the forward momentum. And a great one is walk to canter. So walk - canter four to five strides and walk again four or five strides and canter and so on. Always do it in the same place initially - the anticipation will help her get the hang of the aid.

Pop a jump up in the school - If she starts feeling a bit flat - pop her over that to get her geed up again.

And if she's really that hard work (which isn't obvious in the vid) then a little pair of spurs wouldn't go amiss.

I think she's lovely