Major Panic - majorly long. Opinions on movement (including vid)

[dressagespain]

The horse is perfectly sound, moving in an even beat, even if she is dragging her toes at the back. This could possibly be because of a lack of strength when she was working as a youngster, which instilled the habit in her which is very hard to break once there.

I think you are really worrying about nothing - if she is in pain, she will be visibly lame (ie not trotting with an even beat).

If you want Harley to do something better with her, you need to engage her hind legs as much as if possible within the limitations of her conformation. On that video, the rider is doing absolutely nothing to help the situation. If she is not the type of horse to move forwards on her own, you ahve to encourage and KICKING is NOT going to help. Constant kicking and sawing on the reins is just going to deaden her sides and mouth to you.

If the rider is experienced enough, try spurs and a long whip (but not to hit her properly). Use a long whip when you RISE in the trot egntly on he hind leg, this will encourage her to lift it further up before she puts it down, in turn, strengthening the hind leg and trying to get her out of the habit.

 

[Tierra]

Keep the rein contact more consistent to give the horse a chance. She cant work into a rein that is wiggling about all over the place. Balance straps attached to the d rings of your saddle are fabulous at helping a rider achieve good steady hands and also tend to kill the temptation to bury the hand wide and low and pull the horse down. Keep the elbows soft and at the side and remember there should be a bend in them at all times as it creates a softer arm and hand. If theres no bend (i.e. elbows at side but the forearm then shoots straight downwards), you'll lose so much movement in your arm and wont have the sensitivity required to work her into a contact. Make sure the thumbs stay on top (softest way to carry the hand for the horse)

Get her responsive to the leg. Its easy to work on this. When you ask her to go forwards, apply the leg aid. If she ignores you, apply it again or tap her with a schooling whip. When she's responded, take the leg off - its really important not to bug her with it every stride or she'll just lose respect (if the leg is never taken off, why should she aim to respond to it?) Remember you want to feel that she's really moving from behind and not just dragging herself along with the front end - so she needs to be feeling quite sharp to you.

Do something a bit different in your schooling. Perhaps try some leg yield and shoulder in. Doesnt matter whether or not its technically correct - it all gets her learning to work off the leg and adds interest. I'd also try and get her familiar with half halts if she isnt already. This is best taught in walk if she's not used to them and try and apply a stopping aid with the hand AND the seat (can use your upper thigh too). The idea of this is that eventually, you dont need to use the rein to ask for this as much which is better as she starts to improve. The reason I suggest this is that half halts act as a redistribution of power - if only momentarily to begin with. They'll move her weight from the front end to the back... While you expect the weight to then gradually return to the forehand, lots of half halts help get the horse working more on its haunches

Really get her working forward off that leg and you want her powering from behind. You can control the speed with your body rather than your rein. Don't fiddle with the reins, the most you should do to *ask* from the front end is to squeeze gently on the rein. It's important this is a squeeze and not a backward movement. Any kind of backward movement on the rein (including sawing on the mouth), just creates a neck curl. Flexion through the poll will be the last piece you see in a good outline, so don't get fixated on it. If she does drop for you, then stop the squeezing and try and hold the rein as steady as you can and keep her moving forward into the contact.

 

[dressagespain]

Oh and using cavaletti if you have some is a good way to encourage them to pick up their legs. They need to be 5 feet apart (as in your feet one after the other)!!

 

[fairhill]

Not much to add from the really good schooling advice above, but a few things I've learnt from schooling my shire x who is similar build to patches:

Try not to stay in one pace for too long. Everytime she starts to lean or lengthen too much in her frame then come back to walk (or halt), re-establish and move off again.

Try not to go round and round the edge of the school. Work on a slightly inner track so she can't lean on the fence and keep her moving and thinking - lots of 20 m circles, serpentines and changes of direction to work on her stiffness.

Does she go on the lunge at all? It's a really good way of instilling forwardness in patches, and might help Harley get out of the habit of nagging with her legs if someone else is controlling the pace.

 

[Woody&Rockie]

Y'see, again I just do not agree. I think that she's working really nicely in the video. She is asking for the contact and is offering to come on to the bit - which is not being accepted by the rider. Sure the steps could be improved (but what horses couldn't?). She is flexing through her poll and her neck which is what you want and is offering to work from behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Amymay - please could you explain at which point Patches was offering to come on to the bit and work from behind as personally I just cannot see where patch is truly stepping through?
The lesson was with a highly trained dressage instructor/judge and all her comments were that patch is very stiff. Exercises to improve that were to do turn on the haunches ect to get her to open up her shoulder and loosen up. To be honest I never wanted anyone to see that video of me riding as it was horrendous and my hands were terrible and without trying to defend myself It was very very hot and I had been riding for 45 mins on Patch who isn’t really up to that kind of work - On occasion we did have to stop while the others carried on.

I do think Patch has conformation issues that do limit her ability to step through as I have ridden other cobs who are very supple and able to work in the correct way.

Hi Amymay - please could you explain at which point Patches was offering to come on to the bit and work from behind as personally i just cannot see where patch is trully stepping through from behind?
The lesson was with a highly trained dressage instructor and all her comments were that patch is very stiff. excersises to improve that were to do turn on the haunches ect to get her to open up her shoulder and loosen up. To be honest I never wanted anyone to see that video of me riding as it was horriendous and my hands were terrible and without trying to defend myself It was very very hot and I had been riding for 45 mins on Patch who isnt really up to that kind of work - On occasion we did have to stop while the others carried on.

SO after all my babble - How would you help to make Patch step through from behind more and loosen up?

 

[dressagespain]

horseNpony - see my comments above about whip and spurs/cavaletti.
Good luck - and I know what it feels like to ride in those temps - I regularly ride in 40 degress celcius plus

 

[dressagespain]

PS - if the instructor is dressage minded, she will probably know what I am talking about so you could ask her.

 

[Sooty]

I have watched the video twice, and compared her movement with that of the other horses. I am by no means an expert, but I can't see any signs of lameness. She has a typical cobby trot (up as much as along), but is in a good rhythm and despite the heat, appears to be moving willingly. The thing in your post that makes me think her slightly unusual toe action is maybe just her way of going is that it didn't alter when she was on bute. If it was in any way a pain related issue, you would expect it to change. I am surprised that other riders notice it, does she catch her toes on the road and make a strange noise? If she passed a vetting, is going well and is obviously not in pain, is there cause for concern?

 

[Woody&Rockie]

Sorry didnt see you other reply - We were doing lots of transitions to help to get her a little sharper - and that does work.

I also agree i think raised trotting poles would help.

With regards to having my hands low and wide - the idea was not to encourage her onto the bit but to encourage her to lengthen her neck and stretch through the back.

Sorry if ive missed other posts - at work and cant keep looking

 

[Tierra]

Your riding isnt horrendous by any means - you're being way to hard on yourself there. Your hands are swinging a bit too much but you were obviously tired (and if the video was from last summer, then its not surprising). We were working our horses at 5am in the morning to avoid the heat.

Given that, its hard to say how you normally ride

But seriously consider a balance strap to help keep your hands still and constant (you dont need to buy one, just attach a flash to the d rings at the front of your saddle and use that). Most of the horses on our yard (and this includes some grand prix dressage horses) have them attached to their saddles as its just a useful reminder to the rider of where their hands should be and does help them maintain that (particularly, as you say, when you get tired all your muscles just start to give in!)

I agree, I dont think she is working there but again, there is the heat to consider! However on the other hand, she's not working badly either! Read over my post about getting her responding to your legs. Want you basically need to be doing is creating power from the back end and channelling it forwards, via a steady hand contact, into her front end. There is no quick fix as im sure you know, but the key elements all come back to getting her back end responsive and the front end light.

Also remember to be fair with both yourself and patches. Initially just be happy to get a really good powerful trot out of her and leave it at that. Its easy to blame yourself and be far too hard on yourself.

Are you familiar with half halts? Seriously, try and get those incorporated into the work - even at walk as it will help you. I'd get some lateral work going - leg yeilding, half pass and shoulder in. Again, dont get bogged down by the technicalities of it - all you're basically asking her to do in these movements is move away from your leg so dont over complicate them. They'll help her so much I think and also add interest to your schooling sessions, which is good for both of you.

If you want any specific advice on the aids for any of the movements - drop me a PM and i'll happily help (Im clueless at what kind of level you ride).

P.S. Are you still having lessons with the dressage trainer?

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Amymay - please could you explain at which point Patches was offering to come on to the bit and work from behind as personally I just cannot see where patch is truly stepping through? The lesson was with a highly trained dressage instructor/judge and all her comments were that patch is very stiff.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oo it was you riding - in that awful heat??

So hear goes. Your dressage instructor will look for certain things and want to see a horse working in a more defined and educated way. However, what I was trying to say to Patches was that I thought the horse looked great generally.

I consider that she was seeking the contact from you constantly. She was dropping her head and flexing through her neck and poll - however as you didn't have a consisten (or any really) contact with her mouth, she couldn't. This was a communication breakdown between the two of you and easily corrected.

At no point did I say she was comming through - I said she was offering to work from behind. But as you didn't have a consistent contact with the front end, the back end couldn't engage properly - however she was tracking up for the most part.

She may well be stiff, and lateral work will help supple her up.

Despite what I said about flappy reins - I actually think you ride her really nicely - and didn't in any way look as if you were struggling to keep her going.

Riding on a hot day is hard enough for any of us - but 90 degrees? You need a medal!

 

[Woody&Rockie]

Yes I have an hours lesson once every other week - I have been riding for 24 years and got two of my own horses - Honestly can say i dont always ride like a compete muppet! i was shocked when i watched that vid!

Patched will post a vid of my usual riding! hopefully you will see i dont always mess and nag with legs - but patch was very difficult to keep going as I said I had to stop.

Also do shoulder in to help supple her neck up and yes half halts and then push forward into a good working trot.

I think spurs may help but its not my horse to make that decision.

Thanks for your suggestions - that will help both Patch and I improve going forwards.

Also might add - That was only the second time I had schooled Patch in a school properly and with the added heat and time of lesson really we should have waited until she was fitter. I couldnt walk the next day - Im used to riding TB types! haha

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly can say i dont always ride like a compete muppet! i was shocked when i watched that vid!

[/ QUOTE ]
You were not riding like a muppet!!!!!

 

[Woody&Rockie]

http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o72/puma2020/?action=view&current=harleysmall2.flv


Does this work? Me riding a bit better - I hope.

 

[AmyMay]

Yep link works.

Fab

 

[Patches]

Harley had never ridden a wide cob before so it has been a learning curve for all involved. It's not so easy to get your leg around a horse like Patches (compared to finer tb types which Harley normally rides). So that end, I do feel real sympathy with her in the effort it took her to get anything out of Patches. I have ridden other horses that I find easier to get going than patches and we have been working on getting her more off the leg recently whilst hacking. Lots and lots of transitions. She's great now in walk and trot and canter will come along better (I hope) once schooling re-commences with any regularity (I don't have a manège so can only ride in the fields sporadically over winter, weather permitting).

It was suggested that I ride in spurs a while back, which would extend to Harley too. However at the time I felt there had to be a better way teach Patches to be more responsive to the leg than relying on spurs. I didn't want to change my mind set to ride her in spurs all of the time (and I questioned my credibility as a rider to even be wearing them in the first place).

It was an exceptional set of circumstances that day. I have no qualms about Harley riding Patches and she has improved her schooling tenfold over and above what I have achieved with her. She does get excited by lateral work though and often anticipates movements which makes it hard to get her to concentrate. Bless her.

On a better day (meaning not at the end of a lesson and when it's not searing heat) Harley rides Patches extremely quietly.

Here's a video of her riding a horse we went to look at some time back. This horse was very het up as she'd just been for a gallop in a field with loose horses. Initially she tosses her head about and almost looks lame, but she was just wanted to go and kept trying to take canter...she was 100% sound.

http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o72/puma2020/?action=view&current=harleysmall2.flv



We stopped having the dressage lessons when the nights drew in as it's at tea time on a Monday evening. We'll start up again late Spring I think (so long as Harley wants to ride her).

 

[Patches]

Yes Sooty, you've got it. When I trot on the roads her has extra foot sounds when she taps her hind feet down. She sometimes does it in walk, but very rarely these days.

It isn't anywhere near as noticeable on a manège or even longer grass to be honest.

She has rolled toes behind too to help with breakover and is re-shod every 4 weeks as she's generally heavy on her shoes anyway...not just her hind toes.

 

[Gingernags]

Have to say its not as bad as I expected but it really reminds me of my sisters mare - the bay TB we have. When she's schooling, though she tracks up, it always looks like her back end is kind of following rather than working - if you see what I mean?

Now her footfalls look pretty regular if you just look at that - fairly even. Also when you trot Byter - and I notice this mainly if you trot on the road - you hear a metallic "dink" every time her back feet move where she clips the road with her toe - so is that what you mean Patches does?

With Byter she really doesn't seem to engage her back end and work round over her back, she seems to drop into a false outline and she moves nicely but without any impulsion from behind - as I say her front end moves and the back end follows rather than the movement coming from behind.

She's now 17 and to be honest she hacks about and isn't in any pain, vet thinks she's doing well, back has been checked and she's had physio but the way she is, is the way she is. She's very cold backed, and when she's saddled up the girth has to be done one hole at a time and her walked round in between. She has no back issues now but they think (well, the phsyio and chiro) that she's been overgirthed in the past so she panics if you fasten it too tight too quick. Also she had navicular in the years she was away (we sold her and got her back years later) and we think she may associate being ridden with pain in her feet, but even though she relaxes once you're tacked up and away, we still get the flinching.

She's now only shod in front, and I have to say I've not noticed the toe thing, but then we are out and about up the hills and with no shoes on her back feet - you don't hear the "doink" noise! But I've not seen any evidence of it on her toes either.

She happily hoons about in the field, jumps the odd round of SJ but not much, and she did that massive charity ride with Asti so she's clearly OK on it.

You'd be surprised, if you watched, how many horses have a "different" gait but still aren't really lame as such. I saw one at the showing championships that didn't track up, back legs looked incredibly stiff, they hardly moved - yet it was jumping in Working Hunters and got placed in the show hunters - yet looked really obviously short and stiff - Patches is totally normal by comparison.

I know what you mean though about a niggly feeling that something isn't right and how hard it is to put it out of your mind. But her demeanor would surely tell you something is wrong if its causing her problems?

Blimey - this is going to be an essay and a half reply... A friend rescued a horse from pretty much an allotment. He was we think, shire cross TB - a huge but very handsome black gelding. But quite nasty with it. He bit her several times and I don't mean little nips, and kicked her.

When she rode him, she was convinced there was something wrong. He used to do a tiny and brief sort of "collapse" behind the saddle, his back would dip as if his back end was going to go - but it wasn't obvious and you couldn't see it - more feel it when riding. She nagged and nagged and nagged the vets but they couldn't reproduce the problem and the horse was getting nastier and nastier.

Eventually they referred him to the vet hospital at York and they found the reason he looked sound was he was lame in both back legs. I think the horse was 5 at this point - only just. Anyway, they said OCD, the cartilage in his stifles was rippled like the surface of a pizza, instead of smooth. They scraped it flat on both sides, he was box rested. Its didn't work so he went back in and they took the cartilage out totally. Box rest again. Then she noticed as she walked him out in hand that the collapsing was far more noticeable, and frequent, and the nastiness was definately a response to pain and decided she couldn't put him through any more and had him PTS.

Not a happy story I know, but his nature showed how much pain he was in with the biting and kicking. Patches is a nice placid nature and if she had these kind of problems, and it was both sides so lameness isn't obvious - she would let you know. I can tell as soon as anything is off with Asti - and I'm thinking you will be the same with her. When Asti put her pelvis out (rolling with spasmodic colic) you could tell as if you asked her, even in the stable, to move back, she'd pin her ears back - and that from Asti is unheard of.

I think you should keep on as you are, just keep an eye on it and maybe as she gets fitter and does more rides, it may either go, in which case good, or stay the same - still good as what you are doing can't be harming her or it would get worse. Or it will get worse in which case you will be able to find the problem and treat it much more easily.

Incidentally, we tried a high fibre high oil diet on Byter and it did seem to make her marginally freer in movement. She got speedi beet, alfa A oil, high fibre/low starch coarse mix and added veg oil.

 

[HBII]

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly can say i dont always ride like a compete muppet!

[/ QUOTE ]

You werent riding like a muppet at all!

Hb

 

[Patches]

No she wasn't, I agree. I do know that she was horrified when she saw the video and to be honest, from knowing how hard Patches is to get going, I think she did really well.

She used to lean on you terribly and I'm sure the idea behind Harley riding wide and low was to try and stop patches from hanging on to the contact and leaning. I do believe that was achieved.

 

[fairhill]

I can understand you not wanting to wear spurs all the time, but it might be worth either you or Harley wearing them for schooling sessions. Used properly they just refine the aids so less reminding will be needed and Patch will get the message that she has to move off the leg.
My mum never uses spurs, and is the main rider of the shire x i mentioned earlier. I only wear them when I school her (2/3 times a fortnight) but it has helped her to be more forward and responsive for my mum as well. I see it as making life easier for the rider. For the same reason I do the majority of my schooling of her in her waterford, and only use the snaffle for dressage competitions as I don't see the point in struggling to get her to stop leaning and going on the forehand, when I have the tools to help.

 

[Woody&Rockie]

I even got shouted at by the YO after who commented on my 'terrible hands' thing is i couldn't understand it until i saw the video - as i ride in a snaffle and have a soft mouthed pony so wouldnt ever see saw intentionally. I wasnt even sitting up straight my whole body moved!
On a good note its made me notice that when i get tired i ride terribly! lol

 

[Patches]

Good point Fairhill. Must point out that she was a D ring, single jointed snaffle in that video. She is now ridden in a NS Waterford which I schooled her in on Monday, for the very reason you mentioned, and she was definitely lighter in front. I'm just too weak in my legs to get her to round properly and drop on the bit. I have moments of greatness...but they are only iccle moments and the shutter speed of the camera is not that fast! LOL

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
I have moments of greatness...but they are only iccle moments and the shutter speed of the camera is not that fast!

[/ QUOTE ]
Ha - don't we all??

 

[Patches]

I'm sure we do!!!! LOL

I bet in 30 mins she drops on to the bit in a flash two or three times! I'm bloody useless!

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure we do!!!! LOL

I bet in 30 mins she drops on to the bit in a flash two or three times! I'm bloody useless!

[/ QUOTE ]
Who cares? As long as the two of you can do together what you want, the rest is irrelivant (sp). x

 

[Patches]

yeah....I know you're right. It's just I'm getting to a stage where I want to be able to achieve more. Maybe I need to question if Patches is the right horse for me to do that on....she's never going to be dressage horse. If I want a pretty schooling picture, maybe I should have bought a schoolmaster (and had a body transplant!)

I think to some degree I have to accept her limitations. She was in that lesson with eventers and horses that do dressage regularly. Not particularly fair to expect them to all be able to work at the same level I guess.

 

[charlie76]

Firstly i think she is very nice and you don't ride like a muppet!

Just reading your post and without causing alarm! I think there is a slight unlevelness behind and looking at your symptoms ie; toe draging, snatching away from farrier and not walking straight down hill she sounds like a horse I am currently having treated by the vet and physio for hock spavin and bad back.
Both the vet and the farrier said that the symptoms above and very true to spavins and back probs so would be worth investigating further.
I wouldn't think it was a major prob as she is happy to jump.
The horse I am taking about had a similar hind leg action to yours.
Also he din't get lamer from flexion tests or get better on bute. He only stopped looking odd once he was nerve blocked.

 

[fairhill]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure we do!!!! LOL

I bet in 30 mins she drops on to the bit in a flash two or three times! I'm bloody useless!

[/ QUOTE ]

And that's probably a lot more often than most riders could get her to do

 

[Gingernags]

Oops, forgot to add - Byter does exactly the same thing down hills, goes at an angle as she balances better if its a reasonably steep hill. Very slight gradients she's straight.