"Making a mouth" - advice please !!

Shysmum

Shysmum

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Since I've started Shy, I have kept his bits as mild as I can - rubber/ Happy Mouth, etc - but he chews straight thru these (teething ?). I've tried various others, thicker bits are too large for his mouth, thinner bits affect the lip corners, even though I ride very hand lightly. He constantly chews and chomps at any bit, tbh. He also bucks (not back related), could this be bit related, as I have to try and gently keep his head up ?

I was discussing this with an Instructor, who said that because I'd used "soft bits" , Shy didn't have a mouth. Her suggestion was (ahem) to cross tie him with a bit in for 6 - 9 hours a day, for 2 weeks :eek:. Obviously not going to do this !

A few days ago, he had a mad session, and I had to pull him up - in a sweet iron eggbutt - and I'm so upset, but he got a tiny cut in his lip corner :o He seems extremely sensitive here. A friend says that it needs "hardening off", but I'm confused, as I've been trying to keep his mouth as soft as I can :confused: How do you do this anyway ? He's ridden most days, light hacking and schooling.

In the meantime, I am going to use bitless, and this may be the way we have to go full time ? I'm sure he is teething, his teeth were checked 3 months ago.

So what does "making a mouth" mean, and have I got it all wrong ?
 
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My understanding of "making a mouth" is teaching the horse to accept the rein contact.

Speak to your dentist with to regards what kind of bit would suit his mouth shape, they would be in the best position to advise on that one. You could then use the bit bank to try out a few bits?

I would then look into getting lessons on him (though not with the person you mentioned!!!) or get him ridden by a professional, so you can help him a bit more with how he is supposed to go.

How old is he? If he is teething then bitless is the way forward for now if you want to keep riding him:)
 
A hard mouth doesn't mean the hardness of the mouth itself, its more of a phrase to describe a horse that doesn't accept the contact properly. A horse which is too light in the contact is also an issue.

Hardening the skin of his mouth would work - using bit rings might help too.

I think it sounds like he needs to learn to accept the contact more correctly.
 
thank you both :)

Yes we are going to start lessons together, hopefully next week. With a different instructor ;) I still can't believe that she thinks this is the way to treat youngsters. For the time being we'll stay bitless, until I can get my new Instructor to help sort it out.
 
A mouth is 'educated soft' rather than 'physically soft'.

Rubber bits do tend to encourage horses to chew - unless the mouth stays wet they can chaffe quite badly.

To educate your horse you may need to put him in a mouthing bit first - one with keys to encourage him to salivate.

Lunging in side reins is the best ay to educate him to the rein aids and to get him confident in the contact. Work in trot with the reins at a length that encourage him to seek the contact. Using your lunge rein as if it were your outside rein you ask him to slow down.

Having a soft contact is the way we all want our horses to go but you must be sure that you have a contact - all the time, keeping fingers closed and the rein at a slight tension produces this. Reins that are loose startle the horse when used and this is when the mouth may split.

Don't be upset that his mouth split - it happens from time to time. To treat the split rub in some bonjela to sooth then some vaseline - you treat it just like you would your own chapped lips. To be comfortable the skin in the corners of his mouth need tobe soft and supple - there using anything to harden the skin is not correct.
 
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I agree with what the others say regarding an educated mouth.

Have you had your instructor check that the bit is not too low in his mouth as he is chewing through it so easily?

I find the Neue Schulevstarter bit very good on most of my young horses. Keep a constant elastic contact and ensure your horse working forwards to the contact.
 
shysmum said:
I was discussing this with an Instructor, who said that because I'd used "soft bits" , Shy didn't have a mouth. Her suggestion was (ahem) to cross tie him with a bit in for 6 - 9 hours a day, for 2 weeks :eek:. Obviously not going to do this !
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I've been told this before for my chap!! It must still be popular despite how cruel it is.

Definitely don't do that.

After a few years, I have come to the conclusion that mouth conformation is a major factor. I too consulted a dentist about his mouth. Thick tongue and low palates don't seem to suit certain bits. I've gone through probably about 15 types of bits and have finally settled on ported pelham styles. It's more important he goes well and is comfortable in my opinion rather than "shape" him into the bit YOU want.

I also ride a mare who goes very well in a single jointed snaffle. Since broken. Some just "get it"... some just don't.
 
I have been mouthing horses for 30 yrs and never had a bad mouth useing an old method taught to me by and excellent horseman ,i recentley offered someone on here advice by e mail ect when she didnt know how to proceed ,i went to great lenghs in explaining how it is done and then never got a reply so i take it she didnt like the method,so i am not going to waste my time trying to explain again however i will say that one reason you have a cut mouth is that you havent toughened your horses mouth up as yet and until it does toughen a little you will get these cuts and sores the skin on the mouth is soft so becomes sore when bits are introduced as these heal the skin becomes a little tougher and will after a while stop chaffing and cutting as the skin becomes thicker and used to the bits ,chaffing is perfectley normal while mouthing but i wouldnt want to see the mouth cutting had the chaffing taken place earlier in the process the cutting wouldnt have happened when you tried to long rein, his mouth isnt ready ,hope this makes sence .
 
shysmum said:
Since I've started Shy, I have kept his bits as mild as I can - rubber/ Happy Mouth, etc - but he chews straight thru these (teething ?). I've tried various others, thicker bits are too large for his mouth, thinner bits affect the lip corners, even though I ride very hand lightly. He constantly chews and chomps at any bit, tbh. He also bucks (not back related), could this be bit related, as I have to try and gently keep his head up ?

I was discussing this with an Instructor, who said that because I'd used "soft bits" , Shy didn't have a mouth. Her suggestion was (ahem) to cross tie him with a bit in for 6 - 9 hours a day, for 2 weeks :eek:. Obviously not going to do this !

A few days ago, he had a mad session, and I had to pull him up - in a sweet iron eggbutt - and I'm so upset, but he got a tiny cut in his lip corner :o He seems extremely sensitive here. A friend says that it needs "hardening off", but I'm confused, as I've been trying to keep his mouth as soft as I can :confused: How do you do this anyway ? He's ridden most days, light hacking and schooling.

In the meantime, I am going to use bitless, and this may be the way we have to go full time ? I'm sure he is teething, his teeth were checked 3 months ago.

So what does "making a mouth" mean, and have I got it all wrong ?
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I think that if you are prepared to use a bitless bridle for this horse, that this would be a great idea. What you can then do is teach the rein aids in this, then if you decide to use a bit again, ride with two reins one for the bitless, one for the bit, and the horse will gradually accept the rein aids better.
Im of the belief that horses shouldnt need bits at all, so unless you are aiming for dressage, a bit isnt really nessesary. And even if you do decide to bit your horse, it can be done further into his training.

What age is he? And how long has he been ridden?

I dont think that a horse should ever have chaffing or cuts around his lips. Its just not nessesary. A horse taught to be light to the rein will rarely need you to pull on his mouth.
But that is the problem with the bit, if you get into problems, you only have one option and that is to grab the reins and get the head up or stop the horse. This is why i prefer bitless, because im not going to hurt his mouth should he decide to bugger off with me.

Another thing that might help with his bucking. If you teach him the one rein stop in the bitless, then in a bit if u decide to use one, you will teach him to bend better, and also disengage his hindquarters. Ill post a wee video of how the one rein stop helps a bucker.

If you feel him lower his head to buck, just bend him, it wont be as easy then. But then again, if you find that he doesnt buck without the bit, you might not even need to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ha-dyWUofsc
 
Bitting is all about mouth conformation. and if you find the bit that suits him, then the acceptance will follow , with training. A 'kind' bit is the one that fits his mouth - and that may not be a straightforward snaffle.
I would go with Allover's suggestion of consulting your equine dentist , who can tell you in detail his individual mouth/ tongue/ gum/ inner cheek shape and from there try the bit bank.
I have seen a very fleshy inner cheek causing the problems you're experiencing - but only after it was pointed out to me!
 
Thank you soooooo much for the replies :)

From what I've read, i think the equine dentist is the first port of call, as I want to get his mouth checked again (he's 4 1/2 so just a wee babe).

I am going to ride bitless until his mouth heals up, and until I can get the dentist and my Instructor to advise re bitting, as I have spent a LOT of money so far. I have a Dr Cook style bridle, so I'll make use of that.I am quite happy to stay bitless if necessary - since all this started, I just want my boy to be comfortable.

His lips are very fleshy, and he will only accept a relatively thin bit. I have seen the chafing before, and another cut a few months ago. I do try and keep a contact with his mouth, and we have even been doing lateral work (which he's great at :) ), so it seems to be an on/off.....

I do now understand the concept of hardening off, as in the skin needs to toughen up around his corners, but if that means thru pain, I'm concerned. He is ridden most days, so surely this would have happened by now, if it was going to :confused:

Thanks so much for the advice, it's very much appreciated !

sm x
 
calon said:
i recentley offered someone on here advice by e mail ect when she didnt know how to proceed ,i went to great lenghs in explaining how it is done and then never got a reply so i take it she didnt like the method,so i am not going to waste my time trying to explain again
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Oh go on tell us :D
 
ps, I've just rung my insurer who are fine about me riding bitless "as long as I take all reasonable steps to have full control of the horse".
 
shysmum said:
ps, I've just rung my insurer who are fine about me riding bitless "as long as I take all reasonable steps to have full control of the horse".
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I think most insurance companies are fine with you riding bitless as long as its what your horse is use to and they are safe.

I am riding two of my 4 year olds bitted, because they will have to be sold and no one will want a horse that cant be ridden bitted. I personally hate having to, because they go so well without. So far they havnt cut a lip, and the mouths dont have callouses that ive seen on a lot of horses lips.

People always talk about hardening the mouth. To me, this makes it even clearer that the bit isnt the best means of control for the horse. The nose will not have to harden or toughen up, because it doesnt need to. The mouth has to toughen up to withstand a constant pressure from the bit. I guess thats why id rather have a light horse like a western trained one, than one who has to tolerate a constant pressure. The lighter you can train your horse, the lighter your rein aids will be, and the less you have to use your reins for control.

OP, im glad you are interested in the bitless route, its just a shame bitless isnt allowed in some competitions, otherwise maybe more people would consider it.
 
Jennyharvey said:
People always talk about hardening the mouth. To me, this makes it even clearer that the bit isnt the best means of control for the horse. The nose will not have to harden or toughen up, because it doesnt need to. The mouth has to toughen up to withstand a constant pressure from the bit. I guess thats why id rather have a light horse like a western trained one, than one who has to tolerate a constant pressure. The lighter you can train your horse, the lighter your rein aids will be, and the less you have to use your reins for control.
.
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Like anything bits are only as good as the person using them, i am sure that a human can "scar" a horses nose riding bitless if they are insensitive in the hand.

Got to say out of all the horses i have been around very few have had scarred mouths and the ones that were bad were were from bad hands\riding. I also cant see any good reason as to why you would want to make a horse hardened in the mouth.
 
Have you ridden much in your bitless. If not, do beware that IME young horses can see them as an invitation to buck. Don't know why, and I'm entirely confident that I will be shot down in flames by advocates of bit less but I've found it with young horses when I've had them in hackamores if they are teething.

I also find Nathe & rubber can encourage some young horses to chew, which you don't want which is a shame as I'm a big fan normally.

Your horse looks to have pink lips which really won't help. I would be inclined to persist with a metal bit to ensure that you can use a bit if you have to. Friends have tried all sorts including latex on the bit when their horses have pink lips, it can be a pain to find what works.

I think young horses have so much going on in their mouths that even if their teeth are fine, if they have canines etc. coming through they may get sore. I would 2nd getting the dentist out & understanding his mouth conformation. I am about to invest in a NS team up, as mine is fussy because I think he resents tongue pressure, so that may be an option for you.
 
I think i have read ypur post wrong ,have you just started riding this lad or have you been riding him for sometime ,how did you go about mouthing him before riding this may help us help you
 
Lunging in a bridle (With a headcollar on aswell so you can attach the lunge line to the headcollar on a baby), loose side reins so he knows what a contact is may help. Also consult your dentist about the right bit. A NS bit may help because the metal makes them salivate. Really worked on my mare who hated her last 10 bits!! She has akward mouth conformation as well. She is in the NS Verbindend.
 
calon said:
I think i have read ypur post wrong ,have you just started riding this lad or have you been riding him for sometime ,how did you go about mouthing him before riding this may help us help you
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Allover said:
Oh go on tell us :D
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ok quickley this is how i mouth all mine
always use key bit
key bit in quite low at first to alow chomping just on a headstall of bridle in stable or paddock or school wherever you prefer, two or three times for a few hours at a time dosent matter if he gets tongue over for now either
next raise bit up in mouth to touch corners but no creasing day or two at this as before
next time say forth or fifth day attach elastic side reins quite loose to a roller and bit so they can move head easy but contact is made when they stretch few seasons at this .
then gradually shorten side reins each day until they are about where you would want them when ridden
i like to put them in school or paddock to move around freely and get used to moving forward into the bit ,also do a bit of loose schooling along the way at each stage and then move on to lungeing and long reining ,i dont try to ride them until they long rein really well with and without side reins and will back up easily when asked .
long reining and lunging correctley especially when mouthing is not for any novice to do. you do get resistance during this process and need to know how what and when to do things ,you will also get chaffing due to the mouth skin being soft and not used to the bit same way we get blisters on our hands if we dig a garden and arnt used to it i suppose .
this way has always worked for me and worked well .
 
Allover said:
Like anything bits are only as good as the person using them, i am sure that a human can "scar" a horses nose riding bitless if they are insensitive in the hand.

Got to say out of all the horses i have been around very few have had scarred mouths and the ones that were bad were were from bad hands\riding. I also cant see any good reason as to why you would want to make a horse hardened in the mouth.
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I think you misunderstood me. I dont want my horse's mouths hardened, but soft and relaxed. Hard hands make a hard mouth, soft hands make a soft mouth.
 
siennamum said:
Have you ridden much in your bitless. If not, do beware that IME young horses can see them as an invitation to buck. Don't know why, and I'm entirely confident that I will be shot down in flames by advocates of bit less but I've found it with young horses when I've had them in hackamores if they are teething.

I also find Nathe & rubber can encourage some young horses to chew, which you don't want which is a shame as I'm a big fan normally.

Your horse looks to have pink lips which really won't help. I would be inclined to persist with a metal bit to ensure that you can use a bit if you have to. Friends have tried all sorts including latex on the bit when their horses have pink lips, it can be a pain to find what works.

I think young horses have so much going on in their mouths that even if their teeth are fine, if they have canines etc. coming through they may get sore. I would 2nd getting the dentist out & understanding his mouth conformation. I am about to invest in a NS team up, as mine is fussy because I think he resents tongue pressure, so that may be an option for you.
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Ive never actually had a horse buck in a halter, maybe a hackamore is different for a horse tho. Ive had 3 horses so far backed myself in a halter, non have bucked. Only horses that have bucked where backed in a bit. Just my experience. I guess it also depends why the horse bucks. Sometimes what you have on its head doesnt actually influence the horse in regards to bucking. But sometimes it does. Best of luck with this horse anyway, hope all works out for you.
 
rode this afternoon in the Dr Cook, and he went very well in it, schooling and a gentle hack. I am not sure about the brakes situation tho, that will have to be tested :eek: but I don't feel that confident. Tho we were able to long rein really well, and do some lateral work !

I'll try the English hackamore next, got one off ebay to try out.

All so interesting isn't it. Yes he does have pink, thick lips too.
 
shysmum said:
thank you both :)

Yes we are going to start lessons together, hopefully next week. With a different instructor ;) I still can't believe that she thinks this is the way to treat youngsters. For the time being we'll stay bitless, until I can get my new Instructor to help sort it out.
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I agree and think you are doing the right thing having lessons from a good instructor. When I bought my boy I didn't want to rely on rein contact to stop him / slow him so I had lessons with a 'Mary Wanless' instructor who taught me how to slow and stop my horse by using my seat. It takes a lot of practice for horse and rider but it is worth it in the end. I do however, look a bit constipated sometimes when I am out in the woods trying to slow him down after a canter by bearing down! :D Good luck with it all I am sure you will get there. :)
 
So what bits have you tried , you mentioned rubber , happy mouth but not what type ? Previous people have said that you need to find the right bit for your horses mouth and they are quite right , you have to take into account how thick his lips are , how fat/thin tongue is , how low/high pallet is , what you are asking to do , etc etc . Chomping is often the bit just isnt right type for the mouth , could be jointed , too thick etc . But without knowing what you've tried dont know what to suggest . If he's bucking he may not feel comfortable with his bit so he can go forward into/onto the bit and bridle so he backs off it or upwards ! Lots to think about , but worth spending the time to get it right !
 
Jennyharvey said:
I think you misunderstood me. I dont want my horse's mouths hardened, but soft and relaxed. Hard hands make a hard mouth, soft hands make a soft mouth.
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Wasnt having a go, i agree with you. Just saying that the wrong hands can do damage regardless of what they are in control of! :)
 
shysmum said:
rode this afternoon in the Dr Cook, and he went very well in it, schooling and a gentle hack. I am not sure about the brakes situation tho, that will have to be tested :eek: but I don't feel that confident. Tho we were able to long rein really well, and do some lateral work !

I'll try the English hackamore next, got one off ebay to try out.

All so interesting isn't it. Yes he does have pink, thick lips too.
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To improve the halting, it takes practice. Lots of transitions, walk to halt, trot to halt etc. I also use a wow command too, the horse will soon start to associate the word with the action of stopping. Also, when the horse stops, release the reins a bit. This release tells the horse that he has done it right. If u keep the contact, its harder for the horse to figure out the correct answer.
Also backups help to lighten the horse aswell. If you dont have a good backup, you wont have a good halt, and vise versa.
You want to be able to halt your horse from a light ask from any pace, bitted or bitless, so you might just need to take the time to lighten him up a bit.
 
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