Managing a competition horse with flat thin soles

[Scarlett]

I ended up in a similar place with Pinky and in the end chose to take her b/f as I wasn't convinced re remedial shoeing (my vet also believes the only way to heal feet is to remove shoes for a spell). I couldn't risk pads etc hiding the issue, her still being sore under it all and it affecting her in other ways - starting to refuse, compensating in her movement and hurting herself somewhere else etc etc. Somehow I also ended up with the other 2 b/f as well to try and improve their feet ( in hindsight my farrier wasn't doing as good a job as I thought!) and they are all still b/f now and they all now have super feet, no more thin soles or low heels and both boys are in work, P only not so as she is due to foal this month . Their feet now also grow at an astonishing rate and I sometimes struggle to do enough roadwork to keep them trimmed having been told before that I couldnt do barefoot roadwork as they would wear to quickly.

Shoes or not diet is the most important part of hoof health, and feeding for energy is difficult with some horses. It can be done though, plain oats, ERS pellets, rice bran or oil will provide energy without compromising the feet. I underestimated how important a balanced vitamin and mineral supplement was too, there was a huge difference once I sorted that out, even though I was already feeding a 'good' diet. There are a few specific supps out there - our area is known to be low in copper, zinc and magnesium, so look for ones that have a higher level of those, it has helped mine massively.

He may be sore now but if you look at his diet and supps you could have him far more comfortable in a matter of days, then thats one less thing to worry about while you decide how to proceed. Good luck and gimme a shout if you need anything.

 

[Angua2]

Since reading the post this morning, I have been wracking my brain trying to remember what we used on my old horse that had everything you described for yours. I have finally remembered!! We used these and bar shoes.

http://shop.impactgel.com/Horse-Trax_c74.htm


We did give the gel the farriers use a try but it lasted less than 2 weeks before it all fell out.

 

[Fiona]

Had similar problems with my TB as a 5yo, but solved (she is now 12) by longer shoes with quarter clips, shortened toe, and shoeing every 4 weeks.....

She still wouldn't be a horse you would take to a forest park and ride on the stony tracks, but one the road, in sand arena, and on grass she has maintained 100% soundness ever since.

Up until about 2 years ago we also fed a hoof supplement just so the farrier had some new growth to work with each time...

Flora

 

[ester]

ditto ihatework re the cushings test, we did test but was well negative, not tested for any other metabolics and he seems to tolerate grass reasonably well.

I suppose the thing is if he is not sound/comfortable then at that period of time he isn't really a competition horse/needing studs.

 

[star]

Well no right now he's a field ornament but I'd like him to be a competition horse again so he will need studs in the future. Doesn't seem much point getting him wonderful barefoot feet if then have to shoe him again. Would rather learn how to manage him with shoes unless that's not possible in which case he'll have to go through a period barefoot and then go back to shoes. He's even less sound without shoes at the moment though - lame in walk without boots on.

 

[TwoStroke]

It's difficult to tell from only the x-rays with no pics of the actual hooves, but it looks like the poor angle of p3 is caused primarily by a weak caudal hoof (the back part of the foot - frog, heels, digital cushion etc). The toe doesn't look especially long, and the wall connection doesn't look atrotious (though I appreciate it's hard to tell without seeing the actual hoof). You also mentioned that the back of the foot is very soft and tender.

So based on that I'd guess that building up the back of the foot (as well as the sole depth, obviously) is what you need to do - anything else is missing the point and not treating the crux of the issue. The question of how to go about it is something else . Obviously I'd say barefoot is the best option, but given your competition aims this year I'd be tempted to see what you can acchieve through packing the foot (equipak/magic cushion etc). Personally I've heard some negative things about NB shoes, so I'd want to avoid those and stick to normal shoes with the packing, if possible.

Once the season's over, however, I'd get cracking with rehabbing his feet over the winter, as imo anything you do now in shoes is just as a stop gap until you can grow a better hoof. Of course, if he doesn't come sound enough to compete this side of mid season, you may as well get a head start on next season and rehab sooner rather than later.

That's my take on it anyway. Good luck, whatever you decide to do!

ETA: There's nothing wrong with shoeing a healthy hoof imo. In fact I'd far rather get a hoof healthy then shoe it, than struggle along with unhealthy hooves in shoes until you reach the end of the road and have no option. I get the competition aims for this year, though, and if he can come sound for this season in shoes, then why not wait and rehab him over winter, then shoe a healthy foot in the spring?

 

[Scarlett]

Well no right now he's a field ornament but I'd like him to be a competition horse again so he will need studs in the future. Doesn't seem much point getting him wonderful barefoot feet if then have to shoe him again. Would rather learn how to manage him with shoes unless that's not possible in which case he'll have to go through a period barefoot and then go back to shoes. He's even less sound without shoes at the moment though - lame in walk without boots on.

Of course theres a point getting him good b/f feet, because its giving him good feet! If you improve the feet you stand a better chance of sucess when you reshoe, and removing the shoes will speed up the time it takes to get him good feet. It's astonishing how quickly the feet improve out of shoes, I was a sceptic until I saw it myself. IMO though I'd be looking at different farriers/styles/options or you could end up back where you are....

 

[ester]

That's sort of what I was thinking, if he is lame he doesn't need studs right now sort of thing iyswim. TBH if F was younger I would have been tempted to put shoes back on once the problem was resolved and see if I could manage his feet in shoes, or 6 months on 6months off like goldenstar does with one.

 

[Clava]

Of course theres a point getting him good b/f feet, because its giving him good feet! If you improve the feet you stand a better chance of sucess when you reshoe, and removing the shoes will speed up the time it takes to get him good feet. It's astonishing how quickly the feet improve out of shoes, I was a sceptic until I saw it myself. IMO though I'd be looking at different farriers/styles/options or you could end up back where you are....

Yes that is the reason for going BF, grow some healthy hoof so you can shoe when you need to, it has always been good farriery practice to give horses a break from shoes.

 

[glamourpuss]

Twostroke my problems have occurred as a result of NB shoes. Although how much was farrier & how much was the shoes is hard to say

 

[TableDancer]

Haven't read all the replies but IME it really is at management issue once tou have identified the problem I had a horse which went Advanced and 3* who had simply appalling feet - similar to what you are describing. I was lucky in having Haydn Price who is one of the best farriers in the world, you certainly need to equip yourself with a decent farrier before you start. Then our management programme was:
1. Shoeing every 4 weeks; lots of heel support and if/when the ground came up very hard bar shoes with pads and dental impression gel (the gel paks didn't exist then, I expect they do a better job)...
2. Limited roadwork - still did some for fitness but was very careful and only trotted very slowly uphill (still do this with all my horses)
3. Really good hoof supplement - don't know which the best is currently I'm sure others can advise...
4. Regular icing! Every time he was shod, every time he went XC and every time he went to the gallops he stood in iced water for half an hour afterwards, sometimes the next morning too. He got completely used to the routine - we used those flatter plastic feed buckets, took the handles off, put ice in water to a depth which just covered most of his hoof. He would stand tied like that for ages - tied to the side of a lorry at an event (we brought the ice in a cold box) or on the yard at home. Once I left him tied like that, went down to my arena and taught a lesson and came back 45 minutes later to find he was still there, hadn't moved!

He never ever missed an event throughout his career once we got the management right, and did I think seven CCI**s with me as well as Advanced etc. The deep irony was that, when I sold him as a mid-teenager as a schoolmaster lower level eventer he failed the vet on his feet - me pointing out his career with no gaps throught the last 7 seasons cut no ice ('scuse the pun). Bloomin' vets!!

 

[Britestar]

Have a look at PG shoes. We had great success with them on particular horse.

 

[Garnet]

Personally I've heard some negative things about NB shoes, so I'd want to avoid those and stick to normal shoes with the packing, if possible.

Now, you see, I have nothing but praise for Natural Balance shoes! My 28 year-old ex-eventer has been shod this way ever since he was diagnosed with exactly the same issues as Star's eventer when my horse was 12. Used correctly, Natural Balance shoes do give the horse's feet every chance to re-build themselves. The early breakover point of the shoes replicates the natural breakover point of the bare hoof, which reduces the strain on the ligaments within the hoof capsule.

My horse's low/collapsed heels and poor frog have improved beyond all recognition in NB shoes, and in the early days he had pads and packing under the NB shoes too, to give frog support. My understanding is that once the breakover point is correctly aligned, frog support is the next most important thing to get right, to support the pedal bone within the hoof capsule. This article explains it much better than I can . . .

http://www.equinefootprotection.co.uk/shoeing-with-regard-to-equine-welfare-article.html

Your farrier (or another farrier) is the key to improving the function of the hoof so that you can get back to competing this year - good luck!

 

[MillionDollar]

MD, I'm really sorry but the way you phrased it does sound like he is only up to working on a surface, which to me (and OP whose horse is an eventer) isn't sound either. A lot of "lame" horses with foot problems are sound on perfect surfaces with shoes on, but aren't sound for any level of normal work, which to me includes working outside the menage.

Well like my other post states he is sound, on the hard and the soft, on the straight and on a circle. He's also out 24/7 atm on hard ground and is fine. I haven't hacked him or worked him off a surface because quite frankly he doesn't need to, he's a dressage cob, so if he's sound at what he's doing whats the problem!?

 

[KatB]

Well exactly, so he's fine to do the job you want, which is the main thing if he was an eventer so required to jump off less than perfect surfaces, then would he be sound? Just that's what CP was getting at I believe, so no need to be quite so defensive

 

[Garnet]

Deleted - duplicate post

 

[star]

I will take some photos of his feet tonight. He has poor horn quality so the bottom part of the hoof is quite cracked and breaking up but I think in general they dont look absolutely terrible. He has been sound up until now although it seems he has a degree of bilateral low key lameness which only showed up when we blocked out one foot and I'm not sure how long that has been going on for but he has competed on all surfaces in the last couple of years and has never felt sore after competing or being shod. Looking at his xrays I'm surprised he hasn't had problems before given how thin his soles appear to be. We hack out over some quite stony ground and he hunts regularly in winter with no problems. Even though his feet were worse than they are now when he was vetted 2yrs ago it wasn't mentioned on the vetting form as a problem so vet clearly didn't think they were bad enough to cause him problems.

I'm going to become the most paranoid person in the world about ground now. Last year he strained his tendon so I avoid deep ground like the plague. Now I'm going to start avoiding anything hard or stony. He was turning out to be quite a good dressage horse - maybe that'll end up as a new career for him if his feet cant handle eventing.

I was really hoping to event him this year having missed last season but am prepared to take his shoes off afterwards (assuming we can get him sound now) so he can grow some more normal hoof. I have just ordered Farriers Formula for him as can get it discounted through work and it seems to contain good levels of everything he might need. He was on TopSpec so I'll stop that as otherwise I'll be doubling up on everything. Where can I find more info on barefoot friendly feeds? He would normally be on Bailey's Endurance Mix, A&P Power&Performance, Bailey's Outshine and TopSpec. He's currently on Dengie Happy Tummy, A&P Fast Fibre and Bailey's fibre nuggets as he gets quite la la when he's out of work so have gone back to fibre based feed. He would normally need feed to hot him up for competing without making him too sharp as he can be lethal out hacking.

 

[I_A_P]

My horse has the natural balance shoes now. Unfortunately with my previous farrier his toes were getting very very long and had no heel support whatsoever. This caused problems and his soles were terrible. A year into having natural balance shoes and new farrier, his feet have a much better growth and shape and is now being done every 6 weeks, once they get to six weeks they still look good and the toe is being allowed to grow without having the toe clips on the front as he was shod previously.

 

[star]

Oh also while he has his front shoes off for next couple of weeks is there anything I can be doing to help them? I know it's only short term but anything is better than nothing. He's currently padded up with layers of cotton wool/gamgee and Old Mac hoof boots and seems comfy in these.

 

[cptrayes]

RVC also told me to only work him on a surface, so he never hacks out, and he also never goes on the horse walker.

My comment was not do you call him sound; it was do the RVC call a horse which they advise never to work anywhere but on a surface sound, because I'm sorry, but I don't.

The original poster wants to event her horse this year, and a horse that can never again work anywhere but on a surface will be absolutely no use to her at all, she may as well take it barefoot. And for that matter, so might you. If yours never works anywhere but on a surface, why on earth does he need shoes?

 

[cptrayes]

Oh also while he has his front shoes off for next couple of weeks is there anything I can be doing to help them? I know it's only short term but anything is better than nothing. He's currently padded up with layers of cotton wool/gamgee and Old Mac hoof boots and seems comfy in these.

You are doing all the right things with the boots and pads, it's what we'd recommend right now if the shoes were staying off. Also, walk and walk and walk as much as he can stand, which will get his feet growing. Even in a couple of weeks you should see growth - look for a strong angle change at the top and that will tell you how different the angle of his feet needs to be for him to be comfortable.

For food advice, you can't beat a PM to Oberon. And then when you need more oomph for eventing, I recommend that you try getting it by adding oil (up to 500ml a day is fine) which should give you energy without upsetting his hind gut with carbs.

Good luck, I know how frustrating it is to miss that adrenaline fix!

 

[star]

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151618246365522.1073741827.591150521&type=1&l=f20b77f41e

photos of his feet taken tonight. I dont think his RF looks too bad but I'm surprised at how bad his LF is. Clearly the angle is all wrong, the heel is really collapsed and the toe too long but also from the front the whole foot looks longer than the RF. I'm sure it looks worse than when the shoe came off 10days ago but I have to say I haven't paid them close attention, trusting that my farrier was doing his job and keeping his feet sorted (stupid in hindsight I realise)

Do you think it's best to leave both his front shoes off for the next couple of weeks and keep him in the pads and boots or is it ok to get the other front put back on - I'm worried about the boots rubbing him and adding to our problems. He's walking around out in the field but only in a small paddock. Should I be taking him walking in-hand? Out of interest if I was to keep him barefoot what would be the next steps from here?

 

[TPO]

Sorry for the rubbish post that made no sense; I ran out of lunch hour and pressed post when my manager appeared. Can't remember my original point either <blush> but Scarlett has pretty much convered it!

Have a look at Equine Podiatry Supplies for pads you can duct tape on for turnout and have walking.

Not on Faceache so can't see pics but from your recent post it does sound like you need to feed for a healthier foot/ feet. Ditto the suggestion to contact Oberon.

Good luck!

 

[star]

Can you see these:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/103104611043548993656/albums/5865672676145436257

 

[Erin]

Have a look at Equine Podiatry Supplies for pads you can duct tape on for turnout and have walking.

The EPS pads may fit in your boots (after you cut them in half)

And socks to prevent rubbing - just put sock over the hoof before putting the boots on

 

[ester]

I have pics of Fs lame foot with and without a shoe on, it did look much worse without.

I don't know that I have sufficient experience to advise but will do a summary of what occurred here in case it helps- this was after 2-3 months of lameness and bar shoe/steroid treatment. I spoke to several people about Fs feet, on here and Nic and rockley I then did some trimmer research and got a couple of recommendations.. I spoke to both and showed them pics via email and in the end made my selection based on location as much as anything as am sure they would both have done a good job. I then arranged a visit to talk about it a bit more and poss remove shoes depending on what we though/felt. He was 6 weeks post previous shoeing at that point so either needed shoeing again or not. No trimming done at that point in order to give him a bit of extra hoof wall. We were quite lucky in that most of last year was soft ground . Changed him on to a paddock paradise track system to get him moving as much as possible while grazing, and started in hand walking for about 10 mins- building up to longer/did lots of long reining as muscles a bit wonky too. After 6 weeks he did start to get noticeably more uncomfortable and we used boots for hacking out for the next 2-3 months but since then he has just improved. He does better if we can road trim reasonably frequently. The one 6 week period where he didn't do much road work and had to have more of a trim he was a bit sore after so we try and do less manual trimming now and been fine since.

 

[Goldenstar]

Well no right now he's a field ornament but I'd like him to be a competition horse again so he will need studs in the future. Doesn't seem much point getting him wonderful barefoot feet if then have to shoe him again. Would rather learn how to manage him with shoes unless that's not possible in which case he'll have to go through a period barefoot and then go back to shoes. He's even less sound without shoes at the moment though - lame in walk without boots on.

There's every point in doing time BF and returning to shoes however I fully accept that with your horse at his age you don't wish to do this.
My horse was rising six when I removed his shoes his horn quality was horrible even the best remedial farrier was going to struggle todo a good with nothing to nail too.
My horse worked all his Bf year after the initial period ( apart from a break for a tooth removal) he hacked out he jumped on grass and surfaces and went to clinics to do dressage training I was lucky as he had done a lot as a four and five yo so I think the low key year was a good investment on lots of levels his feet look now as though they are from a different horse the farrier has a foot to work with it was so worth the investment of time and effort .
I will be careful to get him at least four months a year working out of shoes six if I can .
I am not as purist as cptrayes I have three settled on this on off system and one with a conformation fault that I think is going to mean he needs shoes when in work.

 

[Goldenstar]

I started all mine by leading twice a day on all the different surfaces I could find Tarmac ,gravel , road planeings concrete twice daily I gradually increased this long reined out and about lunged in the school .
My next step was to do longer road work with horse lead from another horse ( the wieght of the rider makes a big difference to how hard they find it.
When happy doing 45 mins three times a week I started ridden work but shorter rides and built up from there they where working in the school before that.

 

[LucyPriory]

Star, I've just had a quick look at your hoof photos. Whilst photos can be misleading, I actually found quite a lot to like about the hooves. I agree there are issues, the hoof capsules are scooting forward, angles are out etc. But I can't help but wonder if he couldn't be so much better with not that much effort.

Does he tend to work a bit crooked?

 

[star]

Star, I've just had a quick look at your hoof photos. Whilst photos can be misleading, I actually found quite a lot to like about the hooves. I agree there are issues, the hoof capsules are scooting forward, angles are out etc. But I can't help but wonder if he couldn't be so much better with not that much effort.

Does he tend to work a bit crooked?

Had a lot of issues with crookedness when I first got him to the point he looked lame right hind initially. A lot of straightening work and physio have helped but the turning point was all the time off he had last year followed by months of work in straight lines only. He has since been getting 8's and 9's for centre lines, his dressage marks have gone up 5-10% and he feels much much more even in the contact. He does still find the right rein harder though.