Manouevres that define the Western Horse

I love quarter horses and some of the western riding. However, I hate seeing the fast spins and sliding stops as well as some of the grossly overweight riders on horses too small for them. Would love to have a go at western riding though (the parts of it I don't mind).
 
Isn't it just a movement that any horse does naturally that is just used by riders in western disciplines though? :)

I do think some breeds/types are more pre-disposed, by their build or nature, to finding certain moves easier than others though.
 
Wagtail said:
I love quarter horses and some of the western riding. However, I hate seeing the fast spins and sliding stops as well as some of the grossly overweight riders on horses too small for them. Would love to have a go at western riding though (the parts of it I don't mind).
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They need to be able to stop fast to stop a cow tho. And spin/change direction fast to stop cows. Obviously not on the spot but the manoeuvre is part of that.

I'd absolutely love the chance to ride a proper cutting horse. My friend who like me, is a shepherd, rode one in the US on a cattle gather and he reckoned it was one of the highlights of his life.

I aim to train my paint mare to work my cattle but she has to learn to behave in normal situations before I do that with her. She is awfully good at spinning (!) and direct transitions however, and I decided to see how fast she could canter up a hill and it was utterly amazing how fast she shifted from an ambling canter up the hill to a flat out gallop :D. Different to any horse I've had before, and she isn't trained, it's just in her.
 
Nadolig Llawen said:
Isn't it just a movement that any horse does naturally that is just used by riders in western disciplines though? :)

I do think some breeds/types are more pre-disposed, by their build or nature, to finding certain moves easier than others though.
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I've never seen a horse spin around naturally on the spot, round and round and round at top speed. Occasionally, in an emergency they have to do a sliding stop, but again, this is not something that is repeated again and again, and probably almost never in the wild, as sliding stops are usually caused by our (unnatuaral) paddock boundaries coupled with muddy conditions. Not natural at all.
 
Nadolig Llawen said:
Isn't it just a movement that any horse does naturally that is just used by riders in western disciplines though? :)

I do think some breeds/types are more pre-disposed, by their build or nature, to finding certain moves easier than others though.
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Yes definitely. I was told they are like border collies, it's mostly instinct and the correct training on top of instinct, which is exactly like a border collie :cool:
 
How does the spin differ from a canter piroette in terms of natural behaviour? Mine will spin a full turn in the field, sliding stop repeatedly and cut like a cow horse, but I've never seen him do a piroette or leg yield and yet those are the two things I'm teaching him.
 
KatPT said:
How does the spin differ from a canter piroette in terms of natural behaviour? Mine will spin a full turn in the field, sliding stop repeatedly and cut like a cow horse, but I've never seen him do a piroette or leg yield and yet those are the two things I'm teaching him.
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Well said. Nothing we do with horses is "natural".
 
The fast moves are no worse for a horse than dressage or jump training. Horses in the wild will go round a huge fence rather than over it and will rarely use collection. Sliding stops should be carried out on the correct surface so the horses legs aren't damaged, same way you wouldn't (for example) practice jumping on tarmac.
 
Nadolig Llawen said:
This clip of a cutting horse, doing his job, by himself, always makes me smile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQU8YVHc3iw
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Amazing! But I didn't see any spins or sliding stops from a flat out gallop, just rapid changes of direction. I think there is a difference between a cutting horse doing its job and the show horse where everything has become exaggerated and unnatural.
 
FfionWinnie said:
I'd absolutely love the chance to ride a proper cutting horse.
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My main riding horse is a cutting horse. If you get the chance to ever ride one, take it! There's nothing like the thrill of riding them.


I decided to see how fast she could canter up a hill and it was utterly amazing how fast she shifted from an ambling canter up the hill to a flat out gallop :D. Different to any horse I've had before, and she isn't trained, it's just in her.
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That shift that quarters do is something else isn't it! G-Force almost :)
 
Wagtail said:
I love quarter horses and some of the western riding. However, I hate seeing the fast spins and sliding stops as well as some of the grossly overweight riders on horses too small for them. Would love to have a go at western riding though (the parts of it I don't mind).
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Have you ever seen english style riders ??only happy when they are jumping over things and if on the flat pulling on the reins to hold the the horse in an "outline"
 
perfect11s said:
Have you ever seen english style riders ??only happy when they are jumping over things and if on the flat pulling on the reins to hold the the horse in an "outline"
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Don't get me started on all the other riding sins. I thought this thread was about western riding?
 
Wagtail said:
Don't get me started on all the other riding sins. I thought this thread was about western riding?
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Ok then why do you think a horse thats been bred and properly trained as a working cowhorse or reiner shouldent be doing these manuovers and why you think horses have to be tall to carry an adult man??? and if your talking about Quarter horses the best cutting horses are about 14.2 hh and reiners around15 hh.. and much over that they dont fit the breed standard...
 
perfect11s said:
Ok then why do you think a horse thats been bred and properly trained as a working cowhorse or reiner shouldent be doing these manuovers and why you think horses have to be tall to carry an adult man??? and if your talking about Quarter horses the best cutting horses are about 14.2 hh and reiners around15 hh.. and over that they dont fit the breed standard...
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Where have I said that horses need to be tall to carry an adult man? I was complaining about 'grossly overweight men' that quite frankly, no horse should have to carry. I have picked on two manouvers that set my teeth on edge (spinning round and round at speed, and the sliding stop from a flat out gallop). If you need me to explain why these manouvres could be detrimental to the horse's joints, and in particular the hocks, then you clearly know nothing about horse health.
 
my mare is in training with this guy. QHs are born with the ability to do sliding stop, reinback and spins and many a young foal can be seen doing these moves while playing in the field. My mare also played at cutting with my Border Collies! The movements are no better or worse than some of the dressage movements and I have yet to see a post damning them.:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m__Ggv5w6dg
 
perfect11s said:
Ok then why do you think a horse thats been bred and properly trained as a working cowhorse or reiner shouldent be doing these manuovers and why you think horses have to be tall to carry an adult man??? and if your talking about Quarter horses the best cutting horses are about 14.2 hh and reiners around15 hh.. and much over that they dont fit the breed standard...
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Cue that classic You tube clip, just because I can, rather than as a reply to the weight carrying abilities of QH's :D I imagine the QH is probably about 15h, the other ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ycY1S-BbwI

I always find it fascinating to compare these two well trained horses and their respective riders.
 
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I think a larger problem with western is not so much the movements its the age a lot of these horses are expected to be able to perform them. There seems a higher ratio of people thinking it's acceptable to break in 2yr olds (or younger!) to produce to be able to do spins and sliding stops at 3 and 4 for futurity. I'm not saying we don't have these people in english disciplines, there just seems to be a higher ratio in western.

The sliding stop is the ultimate form of collection, they're asking 3 and 4 yr olds to do it but on the whole you wouldn't ask for any real piaffe steps or true canter pirouettes until nearly twice that age.
 
I don't know why people say 'oh well dressage horses do xyz so what we do isn't any worse than that' . That's not the attitude people should have when caring for a living animal. Respect it, don't turn something beautiful into a circus freak show, like the Tennessee walking horses.
 
Wagtail, interesting article which makes many valid points :)

Personally, I find watching Reining and Dressage as dull as ditchwater unless it happens to be a horse or rider I am interested in. I do, however, appreciate the work and skill which goes to producing a well trained horse - and rider.

My thing is working horses, the ropers, the cutters, the all round cow horses and this paragraph in the article says it all for me:

The true representative of the old west horsemanship is the roper and his horse because it not only displays the immense skills of a cowboy but it also requires a well-trained horse. I have seen ropers perform many times over and over and until this day it is very hard for me to comprehend that so much can be done in so little time. A man can get his horse out of the gate, rope the calf, jump off the horse and tie the calf up, all in lesser time then it takes an average man to wipe his butt out and pull his pants up. What most people do not notice about the roping horse, that one minute he is on his toes before he breaks out of the gate, then takes off and runs and next second or two he is standing still and unattended. Some may think that I am prejudice to western riding; on contraire as a horseman I admire that which is real.

On the subject of real working horses, Mary Williams Hyde is a wonderful photographer who takes incredible photos of the day to life of ranchers and their working horses:

http://www.facebook.com/#!/BuckarooCountry/photos_albums
 
Nadolig Llawen said:
Cue that classic You tube clip, just because I can, rather than as a reply to the weight carrying abilities of QH's :D I imagine the QH is probably about 15h, the other ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ycY1S-BbwI

I always find it fascinating to compare these two well trained horses and their respective riders.
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Great clip! Both horses are fabulous, but I personally would take the western horse. I love small compact horses.
 
Nadolig Llawen said:
Wagtail, interesting article which makes many valid points :)

Personally, I find watching Reining and Dressage as dull as ditchwater unless it happens to be a horse or rider I am interested in. I do, however, appreciate the work and skill which goes to producing a well trained horse - and rider.

My thing is working horses, the ropers, the cutters, the all round cow horses and this paragraph in the article says it all for me:

The true representative of the old west horsemanship is the roper and his horse because it not only displays the immense skills of a cowboy but it also requires a well-trained horse. I have seen ropers perform many times over and over and until this day it is very hard for me to comprehend that so much can be done in so little time. A man can get his horse out of the gate, rope the calf, jump off the horse and tie the calf up, all in lesser time then it takes an average man to wipe his butt out and pull his pants up. What most people do not notice about the roping horse, that one minute he is on his toes before he breaks out of the gate, then takes off and runs and next second or two he is standing still and unattended. Some may think that I am prejudice to western riding; on contraire as a horseman I admire that which is real.

On the subject of real working horses, Mary Williams Hyde is a wonderful photographer who takes incredible photos of the day to life of ranchers and their working horses:

http://www.facebook.com/#!/BuckarooCountry/photos_albums
Click to expand...

Whilst I appreciate the skill and obedience of the horse, that roping of the tiny calf at break neck speed, is cruel IMO.
 
Nadolig Llawen said:
Wagtail, interesting article which makes many valid points :)

Personally, I find watching Reining and Dressage as dull as ditchwater unless it happens to be a horse or rider I am interested in. I do, however, appreciate the work and skill which goes to producing a well trained horse - and rider.

My thing is working horses, the ropers, the cutters, the all round cow horses and this paragraph in the article says it all for me:

The true representative of the old west horsemanship is the roper and his horse because it not only displays the immense skills of a cowboy but it also requires a well-trained horse. I have seen ropers perform many times over and over and until this day it is very hard for me to comprehend that so much can be done in so little time. A man can get his horse out of the gate, rope the calf, jump off the horse and tie the calf up, all in lesser time then it takes an average man to wipe his butt out and pull his pants up. What most people do not notice about the roping horse, that one minute he is on his toes before he breaks out of the gate, then takes off and runs and next second or two he is standing still and unattended. Some may think that I am prejudice to western riding; on contraire as a horseman I admire that which is real.

On the subject of real working horses, Mary Williams Hyde is a wonderful photographer who takes incredible photos of the day to life of ranchers and their working horses:

http://www.facebook.com/#!/BuckarooCountry/photos_albums
Click to expand...

Nothing - but nothing - floats my boat as much as a good heading or heeling horse working with its rider - the speed, the stop, the union in working and constraining the cow as quietly as possible, that complicity and intent: that is everything anyone riding a Western horse can hope to achieve.

For the rest of us, we just dally, but the joy of riding a soft, responsive, thinking horse even when we are the ones c*cking it all up, is simply one of life's little pleasures. It's not all about the 'sharp' manoeuves - the sliding stop, the roll-back, the spin, the blah-blah - it's about a horse that is willing to go on a little journey with you at one stride's notice, and not take mistakes or greyness personally - that to me is the winning attribute of the great Western horse. A horse you can truly dance with.
 
Spring Feather said:
My main riding horse is a cutting horse. If you get the chance to ever ride one, take it! There's nothing like the thrill of riding them.
That shift that quarters do is something else isn't it! G-Force almost :)
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I hope I will some day.

To be honest she is only 4 and hasn't galloped under saddle before and for a second I did think, hmmm has this horse just bolted with me:o but she hadn't. It was fab. Love her more every day (and her hideous behaviour is rapidly stopping in case you remember talking about her with me).

Did you train your cutting horse yourself? I'm not sure how to go about it and not sure where I'd get advice up here. She seems wary of cattle just now. I know my cows are wary of horses so they will move off her easily. I need a DVD recommendation really!
 
I have to say I love the way they can be spinning or going flat out one minute and standing still like a half asleep donkey the next.

My mare is exactly like this too.

Roping calves for competitions could be seen as cruel however rather like sheep dog trials in the UK the justification is that it encouraged shepherds to increase their dogs training and therefore improved the welfare of the sheep. If a calf has to be caught, the quicker it is caught and restrained the better for it.

My sheep dogs can catch and hold a lamb for me. It could look brutal to a by stander but the dogs know its a lamb and instinctively they are very gentle and even the hardest mouthed dog I had, never broke the skin on a lamb. If you are on a hill with no facilities and a lamb that hasn't had a suck there is no other way to catch the lamb than the dog to get it and their ability to do this has saved many hundreds of lambs lives.
 
FfionWinnie said:
Love her more every day (and her hideous behaviour is rapidly stopping in case you remember talking about her with me).
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Yes I remember and I'm so pleased to read she's becoming a good well rounded apha now :)

Did you train your cutting horse yourself? I'm not sure how to go about it and not sure where I'd get advice up here. She seems wary of cattle just now. I know my cows are wary of horses so they will move off her easily. I need a DVD recommendation really!
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You'd be best to come on a trip to the States to get a real feel for what a true working aqha is really like. I remember the first time I rode a cutter the speed at which it responded to my cues was breathtaking! I'm a very decent rider but even my body was shocked at having to move so quickly lol! No I didn't do all the training on my horse. I bought the horse as a 3 year old and he was already working cattle full-time at that stage. I kept working cattle with him and perfected some of his slightly rough edges. He's 12 years old now and he's still as sharp as ever when I work cattle with him but he knows there's a time and a place for it and he's quite happy to toddle along when we're out hacking but if I give him cues he's off like a shot. He is never asleep and he knows me so well that he starts to perform the manoeuvre when I'm only at the tail end of thinking about asking him for it! Great horse!
 
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