Many dog-related thoughts...

[Kat_Bath]

I feel quite embarrassed to be writing this because I feel like I should be able to make some decisions and/or answer most of my questions myself or by doing some research but I'm actually finding that I am really lacking in dog friends to talk to (get your tiny violins out!). Instead, I'm going to write what could be a very ramble-y post and hope some of you might share some pearls of wisdom...

I have been in touch with a local trainer who does come highly recommended but that's one of my worries - what if she's not a good choice?! Also, she hasn't got back to me yet so all my thoughts are still rattling around my head! Also, that's just one person's way of doing things? Ahhhh - I don't know! I need to talk about dogs to someone!



Look at that face - the face of innocence! Ooo, it's lovely to be able to post pictures!

Harvey has been with us for 3 weeks but it feels like he's always been here. He's an absolute diamond when he's on his own and in the house, he walks to heel, sits, lies down, waits, leaves etc. The only black mark against his name is when he meets other dogs - he pulls and pulls if he's on the lead. We are really careful and if we're in a busy environment, he's always on lead because he can get a bit over-friendly. If he's off lead (at the moment, there's only one walk where we let him off), we can normally call him back and grab him but if he's already having a sniff, we just have to carry on walking and he will follow. He's not perfect but in the last 3 weeks, he has improved so much. It's just that now, I want to try and refine things but I'm not sure we're doing the right things to help this. Hopefully a trainer will help but I'm hoping I could get some views on a few things:

Firstly, harnesses/leads/collars etc. He came with a slip lead which just strangled him and he ended up with very bloodshot eyes. However, that was on our first walk and we didn't know each other and he was just over-excited and it also didn't help that he had been cooped up in a flat for a couple of months. He's also got an extendy lead, which I hate, but it does help us out when in busy environments so I'm ok with that for now - he's actually quite respectful of it. We ditched the slip and got him a harness (https://bit.ly/2DG1P2n) which has worked out well but I don't think it helps with the pulling (plus point is that it does have a big handle). I'm really reluctant to put a halti collar on him because I see them as a bit of a gadget. Maybe I'm 100% wrong but in the last 3 weeks, he has got so much better so I have faith that we can sort it. I have had people tell me I could use one for 6 months and then take it off and he'll be fine but I'm not sure. I think we have come to the conclusion the harness works well but that the one we've got isn't a great fit. Am I right to stick with a harness? Is there one which would help us with the pulling a bit more? He walks to heel on a loose lead when on his own though so maybe we should re-visit the slip or just walk him off his collar but I'm not sure how I feel about that when he still pulls. I'm rambling...

The second thing is, thus far, we've done all training without food because he absolutely loves people and cuddles. He's also not particularly greedy and I worry if we start using food that he'll become food orientated? However, I'm getting to the point where I wonder if a little bit of food would just persuade him? Is that a slippery slope? For example, normally, when we go over to the field near our house to play fetch, he is good as gold but this morning, he was a bit naughty and wouldn't bring the ball back on the third throw (he went over to the other side of the field). As it was 7am, I felt I couldn't shout him back and he was some distance away. I ended up going to get him and walking home and I think he knew he'd not been a Very Good Boy because he was very obedient all the way back (I didn't tell him off, I just went to get him as I couldn't be sure he wouldn't do the same thing again). I was thinking about trying again for his lunch time walk but potentially taking some treats with me...

Here's another picture of him because I've written loads of words so far!



I don't actually think there's much else to write because my brain now feels a bit empty!

I know he's getting better and I know that working with a trainer will help but see the top about waiting for her to get back to me...

Thank you to anyone who has got this far. I'm unsure as to whether to post this but I do feel better for writing it so here goes... Eek!

 

[CorvusCorax]

I personally wouldn't use a normal harness with a puller. There are anti pull harnesses out there.
With a headcollar introduced properly and positively, it will buy you a bit of initial control so that you can get his attention back on you to help you train.
You could keep harness and use a double ended lead attached to whatever collar or headcollar you think would help when you need power steering.

I also have no problem with using food or a ball to shape behaviour and it is the basis of all my training, that all good things come from me. And when training, all the dog's food (his normal kibble, not treats) is measured out and comes from my pockets.

Basically at the moment, other dogs are more interesting than what you have to offer. If you break the fixation, then reward for paying attention to you, with whatever floats his boat, that's the basis of the training.

My older dog will look to me when he sees another dog because he knows he will get a game with a ball. My younger one is naturally a horrible puller but he is obsessed with sticks so that's a nice cheap way to entertain him

I use two balls for dogs like him. The dog doesn't get a new ball thrown until the first one gets brought back to me.
Practice this in house/garden before going outside with it.

 

[Clodagh]

I personally wouldn't use a normal harness with a puller. There are anti pull harnesses out there.
With a headcollar introduced properly and positively, it will buy you a bit of initial control so that you can get his attention back on you to help you train.
You could keep harness and use a double ended lead attached to whatever collar or headcollar you think would help when you need power steering.

I also have no problem with using food or a ball to shape behaviour and it is the basis of all my training, that all good things come from me. And when training, all the dog's food (his normal kibble, not treats) is measured out and comes from my pockets.

Basically at the moment, other dogs are more interesting than what you have to offer. If you break the fixation, then reward for paying attention to you, with whatever floats his boat, that's the basis of the training.

My older dog will look to me when he sees another dog because he knows he will get a game with a ball. My younger one is naturally a horrible puller but he is obsessed with sticks so that's a nice cheap way to entertain him

I use two balls for dogs like him. The dog doesn't get a new ball thrown until the first one gets brought back to me.
Practice this in house/garden before going outside with it.

As always CC talks a lot of sense. I have never had to deal with a puller until the spaniel, but now I use the slip lead on a figure of eight if needed (there must be a you tube video showing how to do it). So if I were you I would set out on the walk with the figure of 8, until he has had his free run or whatever signals calm down time and then try him without it, if the spaniel starts pulling again I pop it back on, so it is her choice. She has improved loads. I always use a slip lead, and another thing is use the stop to hold it up right behind his ears, so he cannot get his head down to pull.

 

[Kat_Bath]

I personally wouldn't use a normal harness with a puller. There are anti pull harnesses out there.
With a headcollar introduced properly and positively, it will buy you a bit of initial control so that you can get his attention back on you to help you train.
You could keep harness and use a double ended lead attached to whatever collar or headcollar you think would help when you need power steering.

I also have no problem with using food or a ball to shape behaviour and it is the basis of all my training, that all good things come from me. And when training, all the dog's food (his normal kibble, not treats) is measured out and comes from my pockets.

Basically at the moment, other dogs are more interesting than what you have to offer. If you break the fixation, then reward for paying attention to you, with whatever floats his boat, that's the basis of the training.

My older dog will look to me when he sees another dog because he knows he will get a game with a ball. My younger one is naturally a horrible puller but he is obsessed with sticks so that's a nice cheap way to entertain him

I use two balls for dogs like him. The dog doesn't get a new ball thrown until the first one gets brought back to me.
Practice this in house/garden before going outside with it.

Thank you for replying CC

It's funny you should mention breaking the fixation because for a while we walked him with his Kong stick and that did seem to help but I was a bit worried that he would see that as a sort of reward for pulling. It's good to know that that could be a good 'solution', for want of a better word. He does love his stick!

Using 2 balls is a good idea, thank you. I think he'd love that because he loves balls!

A double ended lead is also a good idea and I had thought of that. I'm assuming that this would also help stop using a halti when the time came?

I like the phrase 'shape the behaviour'.

I feel like such a novice sometimes but I'm glad I posted because I feel quite inspired to keep going and to not be afraid of asking for help - thank you CC

 

[CorvusCorax]

It's not such a big problem to overcome and it sounds like you have made good progress in a short space of time

 

[Kat_Bath]

As always CC talks a lot of sense. I have never had to deal with a puller until the spaniel, but now I use the slip lead on a figure of eight if needed (there must be a you tube video showing how to do it). So if I were you I would set out on the walk with the figure of 8, until he has had his free run or whatever signals calm down time and then try him without it, if the spaniel starts pulling again I pop it back on, so it is her choice. She has improved loads. I always use a slip lead, and another thing is use the stop to hold it up right behind his ears, so he cannot get his head down to pull.

I've just had to YouTube what you meant but now I totally get you - I did wonder if there was a way of making a figure of 8 lead out of the slip but I couldn't work it out! Thank you for suggesting that.

2 questions though, how do you make sure it stays behind her ears? And do you just walk off a shorter lead from it or attach something to it? Our slip is a metre so I think I'd have enough without attaching anything to it and he'll be at heel.

I'm guessing I could try this and see how we get on with other dogs and then attempt to phase it out but if he started pulling, I could quickly adjust the slip as soon as we see a dog?

Thank you again

I love HHO!

 

[Kat_Bath]

It's not such a big problem to overcome and it sounds like you have made good progress in a short space of time

I'm glad you say that just from reading my posts as I feel I've been a bit harsh on him on here. However, I do recognise that he has already improved so much.

I'm also glad you say that it's not a difficult thing to overcome and I know he is a smart dog so we should be ok in the end.

I forgot to ask, I'm assuming we treat recall in the same way and that it would be worth doing some more intense recall in the garden with more reward to show him good things come to those who come back? Then we can take that outside and we do have a couple of dog friends who we could borrow to practice.

I also forgot to say, he is a humper even though he has been neutered but I'm hoping that'll fade away when he socialised more... :/ It's very embarrassing!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Yep it's good to practice things first with no distractions then phase them in over time.

Does he hump other dogs or people? For that one I'm fully in favour of just telling the dog very firmly to knock it off

 

[Kat_Bath]

Does he hump other dogs or people? For that one I'm fully in favour of just telling the dog very firmly to knock it off

Dogs - boys and girls. I think we will have to have firm words next time he does it. He's only done it on long walks with other dogs and it's not immediate, it's just when he gets second wind and extremely over excited but it undesirable!

 

[twiggy2]

Just to add you cannot use a figure of either or a halt with and extendable lead they are only safe for use on a short lead.
Sounds like your making progress nd have had plenty of good advice so far.

 

[Kat_Bath]

Just to add you cannot use a figure of either or a halt with and extendable lead they are only safe for use on a short lead.
Sounds like your making progress nd have had plenty of good advice so far.

I figured it wouldn't be suitable just because of the possibility of doing some damage if he did make a run for it and he got to the end of the lead or I made it stop - makes me cringe just thinking about it. I don't like the extendy lead so it would be nice to get rid but there are a few lovely walks that are always quiet but by a river and he'd be in, given the chance so it does have its uses!

We just went for a short walk with the slip as a figure of 8 - he wasn't the biggest fan I don't think as he was at heel without being told! We didn't see a single person, let alone a dog - sods law! On the long road where I can see quite far, I took of the figure of 8 and just had it as a slip and he was still at heel although a bit happier about walking faster. I never had the figure of 8 tight but perhaps he just knows as he is smart and he was a bit naughty this morning.

When we got back, we did some recall in the garden with kibble and I did some where I went out of sight as well and he was spot on every time (to be expected as he is by himself). Hopefully (never thought I'd say that), we'll meet some dogs in the next few days and we can try things out!

Thanks again for all of your help - I'm really, really glad I asked. I just don't want to be a bad owner and he's a dream to have and I want to do right by him.

 

[CorvusCorax]

If you're adding anything new like the figure of 8, make sure the dog is desensitized to it...again, try it in the house first, pop it on, feed him, take it off, rinse and repeat so he knows it's a good thing

 

[Clodagh]

I forgot to say no long lines with the figure 8, but I see Twiggy did.
TBH I just put it on and walked off with the spaniel doing a stranded fish next to me, but I had totally had it with the pulling when I first put it on. In a few yards she walked normally, albeit a bit snorty, and now she is totally resigned. CC's suggestion is probably nicer! As for putting it on in a crisis - they soon learn to plonk their head on the floor to make it harder, but at least they aren't pulling while they do that!
With the humping I would do a Cesar Milan style knee to his hindquarters to put him off balance and really tell him off. (I know CM is persona non grata on here).

For spaniel recall the food has to be amazing to overcome the lure of nicer things. If you can get it primula and prawns in a tube is like dog dope, they love it and it is easy to squeeze a bit out.

Oh and to keep the slip right up behind his ears adjust the stop circle thingy to hold it there snugly, then I keep the lead at quite a straight upwards angle. (Hard to explain).

 

[Chiffy]

Lots of helpful advice. Sounds as if you are doing well. I don’t like harnesses, dogs tend to lean into them. If you do want a harness, you need one with a front attachment like the easy walk. Personally I find the dog is in the wrong position in them, too much of the dog in front of you.
You could google a Gencon, which is much like using a figure of eight slip lead. It loosens the moment they don’t pull and you can slip it off their nose so it’s just round the neck as they get the idea of not pulling. Much more versatile than a halti. Always walk with a short but hopefully slightly loose lead with your dog beside you, not pulling in front.
I have always used treats to train and I have food orientated retrievers. It’s not a problem, the treats are yours, not the dog’s. They get them when you say. If they start looking for them the whole while you show an empty hand.
You sound very sensible and keen to do the right thing. Good luck.
Oh! As Clodagh says, a slip lead right up behind the ears, snug but not throttling with the rubber stop in place, then the dog right beside on short lead with no pressure can work really well.

 

[Kat_Bath]

If you're adding anything new like the figure of 8, make sure the dog is desensitized to it...again, try it in the house first, pop it on, feed him, take it off, rinse and repeat so he knows it's a good thing

In hindsight maybe I should have done this but he is quite laid back and was keen to go out so off we went. However, that has given me food for thought for anything we might do in the future so thank you.

I forgot to say no long lines with the figure 8, but I see Twiggy did.
TBH I just put it on and walked off with the spaniel doing a stranded fish next to me, but I had totally had it with the pulling when I first put it on. In a few yards she walked normally, albeit a bit snorty, and now she is totally resigned. CC's suggestion is probably nicer! As for putting it on in a crisis - they soon learn to plonk their head on the floor to make it harder, but at least they aren't pulling while they do that!
With the humping I would do a Cesar Milan style knee to his hindquarters to put him off balance and really tell him off. (I know CM is persona non grata on here).

For spaniel recall the food has to be amazing to overcome the lure of nicer things. If you can get it primula and prawns in a tube is like dog dope, they love it and it is easy to squeeze a bit out.

Oh and to keep the slip right up behind his ears adjust the stop circle thingy to hold it there snugly, then I keep the lead at quite a straight upwards angle. (Hard to explain).

No, I know what you mean and I did find that I was holding the lead at an upwards angle but I am quite tall so it wasn't anything unnatural for me.

Thank you for the humping telling off suggestion (a sentence I never thought I'd write!) and for the food idea as well - he just came over to investigate me typing so maybe he heard you talking about food!

Lots of helpful advice. Sounds as if you are doing well. I don’t like harnesses, dogs tend to lean into them. If you do want a harness, you need one with a front attachment like the easy walk. Personally I find the dog is in the wrong position in them, too much of the dog in front of you.
You could google a Gencon, which is much like using a figure of eight slip lead. It loosens the moment they don’t pull and you can slip it off their nose so it’s just round the neck as they get the idea of not pulling. Much more versatile than a halti. Always walk with a short but hopefully slightly loose lead with your dog beside you, not pulling in front.
I have always used treats to train and I have food orientated retrievers. It’s not a problem, the treats are yours, not the dog’s. They get them when you say. If they start looking for them the whole while you show an empty hand.
You sound very sensible and keen to do the right thing. Good luck.
Oh! As Clodagh says, a slip lead right up behind the ears, snug but not throttling with the rubber stop in place, then the dog right beside on short lead with no pressure can work really well.

That is a great point about the food being mine and not his - thank you - and also showing an empty hand - thank you again.

I didn't even put the harness on earlier and I did feel better - don't totally know why but I think my gut was telling me it had served it's purpose and that it was time to move on but I wasn't sure what to do.

Thank you all again for your incredibly valuable advice - I can't tell you all how thankful I am and how glad I am that I posted (I have been umming and ahhing over doing it for the last week).

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Put slip lead on, take excess from under chin, twist into figure of 8. Mine are rarely on lead, literally from car to field or across the road if necessary, but blimey, it’s saved my shoulders! Bear is very strong and keen to get to the bit where he can bounce like Tigger on speed all the way down the path. The figure of 8 has revolutionised lead walking for me.

 

[paddy555]

my 10m old GSD was a bad puller and wouldn't listen. The trainer put him in a dogmatic and whilst he was under control he hated it and wouldn't work. The GSD stud where his dad came from told me to use an ancol "happy at heel" The lead comes out from the side and even on the first walk out in it he was happy and most of the pulling just stopped. Most of all he started to listen and work with me. Now after about 3 weeks he trots along on a loose lead. As I am just starting teaching him to lead off my bike it is especially important he doesn't pull.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Put slip lead on, take excess from under chin, twist into figure of 8. Mine are rarely on lead, literally from car to field or across the road if necessary, but blimey, it’s saved my shoulders! Bear is very strong and keen to get to the bit where he can bounce like Tigger on speed all the way down the path. The figure of 8 has revolutionised lead walking for me.

Fig 8 leads stopped both BIG Rottweilers pulling.

 

[Kat_Bath]

I'd love Harvey to be able to come out with me on my bike. One day!

We had a good evening walk, the majority of it off lead and his recall was not too bad (better than before but not perfect). Until right at the end when he ran a fair distance towards the start of the walk because he saw 2 people and their dog. He's never done that with us and it was a bit squeaky bum time but we didn't run after him (I can't run but also, I just think running after them is a bad idea?) and he came back after 2 calls. I think curiosity got the better of him and he immediately knew he'd done wrong. I also think he's just had a bit of a day of pushing all possible boundaries.

We managed 2 good recalls to get him on the lead on the approach to other dogs and he was very good (mostly because he just cannot physically pull with the figure of 8).

One other question, he gets fed half an hour after walks but I wonder if that should or shouldn't include car time. He's a very good traveller (goes to sleep) so I feel really harsh when I don't feed him for 30 minutes from when we get home after he's been in the car for 15 minutes. Should we just take the half hour from when we finish our walk?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

One other question, he gets fed half an hour after walks but I wonder if that should or shouldn't include car time. He's a very good traveller (goes to sleep) so I feel really harsh when I don't feed him for 30 minutes from when we get home after he's been in the car for 15 minutes. Should we just take the half hour from when we finish our walk?

Sorry I don't understand the question. Feed him when you like, although I would caution against feeding just *before* travelling.

 

[Kat_Bath]

Sorry I don't understand the question. Feed him when you like, although I would caution against feeding just *before* travelling.

Sorry, I'm so sleepy and I was rambling! If he gets fed before a walk, it's at least an hour before we leave the house.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Sorry, I'm so sleepy and I was rambling! If he gets fed before a walk, it's at least an hour before we leave the house.

Now that does make sense but did I understand that you always wait at least 30 minutes to feed him after you get home? Is there a reason for that?

 

[CorvusCorax]

If you're using food to train I would take it with you and use it during your walk.

As regards feeling harsh, my dog sometimes gets fed late for a variety of reasons....like last night, I forgot to take his food with me and we didn't get home til late. He's not faded away to nothing and his head hasn't fallen off

 

[Kat_Bath]

Now that does make sense but did I understand that you always wait at least 30 minutes to feed him after you get home? Is there a reason for that?

30 minutes if it's a walk straight from the house but sometimes I "cheat" and cut that down if he's been in the car on the way home 10 or 15 minutes already. I've always been told you shouldn't feed bigger dogs for a while after exercise as they are prone to bloat. I wouldn't feed him straight after a walk while he's still panting and tongue everywhere but sometimes half an hour feels ages.

 

[Kat_Bath]

If you're using food to train I would take it with you and use it during your walk.

As regards feeling harsh, my dog sometimes gets fed late for a variety of reasons....like last night, I forgot to take his food with me and we didn't get home til late. He's not faded away to nothing and his head hasn't fallen off

Hahaha! I'm glad - no one wants a headless dog!

We did take some kibble this evening and used it when he did something that was asked of him (in relation to the other dogs and just when he was on his own). He was doing so well until he ran at the end but I guess that could have happened any time. He didn't get kibble on that occasion because he ran but maybe I should have given him some because he did come eventually. He was on lead for the rest (not very far).

I feel I'm painting him in a harsher light than he deserves - his recall really was so good until the end. In the back of my mind is that I don't want him to be on the lead all the time, especially on the figure of 8 slip in lovely countryside because it's so short. But I guess it'll all come together in time. I was thinking earlier that I do trust him and that must be a good thing...?!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

30 minutes if it's a walk straight from the house but sometimes I "cheat" and cut that down if he's been in the car on the way home 10 or 15 minutes already. I've always been told you shouldn't feed bigger dogs for a while after exercise as they are prone to bloat. I wouldn't feed him straight after a walk while he's still panting and tongue everywhere but sometimes half an hour feels ages.

Not something I have ever heard, or experienced and we have mostly had multiple Labs. I must admit that we are more likely to feed before a walk than immediately after but if it is about recuperation time, I would have thought that the 15 minutes in the car counts towards the total, why wouldn't it?

 

[Clodagh]

I never feed straight before or after exercise, but once the dog has stopped panting and has settled down any time after would be fine, IMO, I have never timed it. Before I always feed then wait an hour, but yes I should think car time could count in there.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I try to leave it an hour before or exercise or car journeys as I have a bloat/torsion-prone breed. But only if feeding all in one go. If I'm drip feeding for training I'm not so strict about it.

 

[Kat_Bath]

Thank you all, again, very much. HHO is wonderful!

We just went for our morning walk and I showed my partner the figure of 8. She takes him out for his lunch time walk and there's a lot more going on (kids on lunch, kids eating lunch, kids dropping their lunch!) and I think it'll be really useful then.

He is a bit sort of resigned when he's got the figure of 8 on and he doesn't sniff around nearly as much which seems a shame but maybe that's just part of lead walking? We started on the figure of 8 and then just had him on the slip on the long straight road with the good grassy sniff bit (he was still to heel perfectly). We did meet a dog when he was just on the slip so Jo made herself very interesting and he kept to heel and didn't pull which is a huge step forward. He also didn't cut us up like a bad motorway driver (the dog was on his right but he walks on the left) so yay!

 

[Clodagh]

I wish I had always known about the figure of eight! (I only got shown how to do it a few weeks ago). I do feel mean but it is better than feeling cross! Also, like you, she soon learned that pulling = having the cursed thing back on.
LOL at Jo making herself very interesting!!