Many dog-related thoughts...

[skinnydipper]

I am not keen on headcollars like Halti or figure of 8. I have seen some dogs who look quite depressed when they wear them. I think it is something to do with pressure on the muzzle. But each to their own and whatever works for them.

I don't like extending leads for a number of reasons, all safety related. One of my pet hates is seeing dogs being walked along the pavement on fully extended leads. If the dog can go 10 metres ahead on the pavement then it can go across a road - a Coton de Tulear did just this when it ran yapping at my dog - luckily no cars at the time.

My GSD, when he came to me at 18 months, had never experienced life outside of a backyard and collar, lead and walk were all new to him. He quickly demonstrated the speed at which a dog can back out of a flat collar. I didn't want to throttle him with something which tightened round his throat and could potentially damage his neck or thyroid so he now wears a harness.

On some harnesses the chest strap is too low on the chest/across the shoulders which can impede the dog's gait, especially when running. I found one which I like, it is the Freedom No Pull Harness by 2 Hounds Design. It has 2 attachment points, front and back, and comes with a lead which attaches to both, I didn't like the lead so I just use my favourite leather 6 ft lead which I can attach to either front or back but for dogs that pull it is recommended to use both attachments to achieve balance.

If your dog's whole walk is on leash why not ask him to heel when necessary and have some sort of "free" command when he is allowed to relax and sniff.

Having had a number of deep chested dogs, I am another who is fearful of bloat and like to leave a good amount of time without food both before and after exercise to prevent this. It may be excessive but I would not exercise vigorously within 2 hours of eating a large meal and would give an hour after vigorous exercise before feeding. Exercising on an empty stomach is ideal. I am not too bothered about when to feed if they just have a quiet pootle about. I wouldn't worry about giving a small amount of treats when training/exercising. It is also better to feed dogs liable to bloat twice a day rather than one big meal. I knew a dog (GSD) who died from GDV, it is a very real threat.

Food orientation can be used to your advantage and I have never been averse to using a good quality treat to reinforce a behaviour (and why not pay him for a job well done?). JR Pure are good, 100% meat in stick form which can just be broken into pieces and they don't mess up your pocket.

The humping is probably just a sign of stress or excitement. I have had no experience in dealing with it but wonder if it will extinguish as he settles into his new life. I would discourage him for doing it as you do not want it to become an established behaviour (but perhaps it already is if he practised it in his old life). If it was me, I would tell my dog "That is enough", remove him from the situation and ask for an alternative behaviour until he calmed down - a sit or down would do. I know, Clodagh and CC, I am too soft but it works for me Another of my stern rebukes is "Hey, by gum, that was naughty" - tone is everything

He looks a lovely dog and his issues seem minor. Best of luck.

 

[Kat_Bath]

LOL at Jo making herself very interesting!!

It was my turn this evening - it is very difficult to be interesting when you have 2 dogs wiggling their bums in your dog's general direction as competition 😂

 

[Kat_Bath]

I am not keen on headcollars like Halti or figure of 8. I have seen some dogs who look quite depressed when they wear them. I think it is something to do with pressure on the muzzle. But each to their own and whatever works for them.

I don't like extending leads for a number of reasons, all safety related. One of my pet hates is seeing dogs being walked along the pavement on fully extended leads. If the dog can go 10 metres ahead on the pavement then it can go across a road - a Coton de Tulear did just this when it ran yapping at my dog - luckily no cars at the time.

My GSD, when he came to me at 18 months, had never experienced life outside of a backyard and collar, lead and walk were all new to him. He quickly demonstrated the speed at which a dog can back out of a flat collar. I didn't want to throttle him with something which tightened round his throat and could potentially damage his neck or thyroid so he now wears a harness.

On some harnesses the chest strap is too low on the chest/across the shoulders which can impede the dog's gait, especially when running. I found one which I like, it is the Freedom No Pull Harness by 2 Hounds Design. It has 2 attachment points, front and back, and comes with a lead which attaches to both, I didn't like the lead so I just use my favourite leather 6 ft lead which I can attach to either front or back but for dogs that pull it is recommended to use both attachments to achieve balance.

If your dog's whole walk is on leash why not ask him to heel when necessary and have some sort of "free" command when he is allowed to relax and sniff.

Having had a number of deep chested dogs, I am another who is fearful of bloat and like to leave a good amount of time without food both before and after exercise to prevent this. It may be excessive but I would not exercise vigorously within 2 hours of eating a large meal and would give an hour after vigorous exercise before feeding. Exercising on an empty stomach is ideal. I am not too bothered about when to feed if they just have a quiet pootle about. I wouldn't worry about giving a small amount of treats when training/exercising. It is also better to feed dogs liable to bloat twice a day rather than one big meal. I knew a dog (GSD) who died from GDV, it is a very real threat.

Food orientation can be used to your advantage and I have never been averse to using a good quality treat to reinforce a behaviour (and why not pay him for a job well done?). JR Pure are good, 100% meat in stick form which can just be broken into pieces and they don't mess up your pocket.

The humping is probably just a sign of stress or excitement. I have had no experience in dealing with it but wonder if it will extinguish as he settles into his new life. I would discourage him for doing it as you do not want it to become an established behaviour (but perhaps it already is if he practised it in his old life). If it was me, I would tell my dog "That is enough", remove him from the situation and ask for an alternative behaviour until he calmed down - a sit or down would do. I know, Clodagh and CC, I am too soft but it works for me Another of my stern rebukes is "Hey, by gum, that was naughty" - tone is everything

He looks a lovely dog and his issues seem minor. Best of luck.

Thank you so much for taking the time to write this! I'm really sleepy so I'm going to read it again tomorrow and I'll reply properly as I think I have a few questions.

 

[skinnydipper]

I hope I can answer them

. I am just an average pet owner who has learnt as I have gone along by watching my own dogs and what has worked with them. I've made plenty of mistakes along the way and currently have a less than perfect dog, though to be fair to him he has come a long way but will forever be a work in progress.

There are experienced, skilful trainers on here who compete in dog sports at the highest level, train working dogs and some are professional dog trainers, they will be able to offer better advice than me.

But fire away.......... I'll have a go!

 

[Kat_Bath]

I realise now that my initial reply probably sounded terrifying! Fear not, on reading your post again, I have less questions! In fact, my post below is just mostly observations!

I really liked reading everything you said - very level headed and with good reasoning.

The good news is, we have worked out we can sniff and enjoy life with the figure of 8 on - hurray! He also already knows that if he pulls with it on, it gets a bit uncomfortable. So far, he has been the one to pull himself and therefore annoy himself! The other good news, he is already much better on just the slip and I think that's a combination of lead training and treats (such a small number but they've had a big effect).

It's funny you should say that he could have heel and also "free time" as we already allow this because there are many nice grass verges along our walks and it only seems fair that he gets a shot at weeing in all available spots 😂 I was very pleased to read that as I had wondered if it was "allowed" but it already works for all 3 of us.

I also hate hate hate seeing extendy leads being used by roads!

As for the humping, I'm hoping the recall and lead training will help and next time he does it, he will get told off.

Thank you again for your post

The trainer replied to me but I'm not a bit unsure as to how I feel about it all as we've made a few changes over the weekend... Her agility classes are close though and I think it would be good to train with her beforehand? I don't know. Her email said:

We will need to give the dog an understanding of what's required verses what he currently believes he should do & will set a template for you both to follow. We can try working without food but he will need to have a strong understanding that praise is reward. He does sound like he might. As he is an older dog changing the pattern of behavior may take a while for him to understand as he will of rehearsed the incorrect behavior many many times. My 1to1 costs are £45 per session plus travel & we will build a template suitable for both you & your dog to follow. If this is suitable please let me know & we can look to arrange an appointment.

I did say that I'd prefer not to use food but people's replies on here have really made me reconsider (obviously, as we have been trying it), mostly because someone said it's not their food and we choose when to give it (or words to that affect) and that was something I hadn't thought of.

I'm nervous about spending what I consider to be quite a lot of money on a 1-2-1... But I now don't think I could ask to go to classes without a 1-2-1 because the issue we have is behaviour with other dogs... Ahhhh, what to do?!?

Apologies for still ambling on, 48 hours after my initial ramble!

 

[skinnydipper]

I am glad the figure of 8 is working for you. Many years ago I bought a Halti for an excitable terrier as a quick fix, she wanted to get everywhere yesterday and I was frightened she was going to damage her throat - she made herself cough when pulling against a collar. As soon as I put the Halti on her she changed from being a vibrant dog and became shutdown and flat, the change was dramatic and I did not persist with it. I have noticed a similar demeanour in some other dogs wearing them, I see a lab who seems very subdued and miserable wearing his. I'll explain my theory about the pressure on the muzzle if you have the patience to keep reading.

For years I shared my home with 8 dogs which gave me plenty of opportunity to observe dog behaviour. Joe was "top dog" and usually a look from him would do but he occasionally gave a reprimand when he would take a dog across the top of its muzzle and hold it briefly. I felt the Halti had the same impact.

The trainer you have been in contact with sounds sensible, she wants to evaluate your dog before he disrupts one of her classes. If you are hesitant why not give yourself time to work with him and see how you go, if you get on top of things he may not need the 1 to 1.

Before you sign up for anything go along and see how she runs her class and make sure you are happy with it.

Agility seems a great way to train and bond with your dog.

We are forced to learn when we have to work through a problem. 9 of my dogs were rescues, a number of them had issues, and I learnt more from having dogs with problems than if I had just had "easy" dogs. My current (and now only dog) has been my biggest challenge.

I think the medical phrase "First do no harm" also applies to working with dogs.

Don't worry, you'll get there.

 

[Clodagh]

I agree with SD that a figure 8 has a similar effect to a twitch on a horse, but if you only use it as a training aid then what is the harm, they behave and it comes off, surely a good learning tool? (politely debating, SD, please don't get cross!)
I would do the agility and see how you get on, tbh I don't use treats routinely for training and find them of little use, but if they work then go for it.

 

[skinnydipper]

(politely debating, SD, please don't get cross!)

LOL

Clodagh, I know you could teach me a lot.

I am intrigued by the stop whistle. Is it the same as me verbally asking my dog to wait, when I expect him to stop and either wait for me to catch up or release him?

I must confess I never tried agility with any of the dogs and my joints couldn't take it now - I know, I know - I wouldn't have to jump or crawl through a tunnel

 

[Moobli]

I don’t understand reluctance to train with food, titbits, a toy or whatever else works. Rewarding an action teaches the dog when it’s doing something correctly, and paired with a marker word or clicker simplifies learning which is a big bonus when we don’t speak the same language.

I’m not particularly fond of headcollars, and most dogs I’ve seen wearing them seem to dislike them, but if they are a temporary measure while ongoing training takes place then I think they have their use.

 

[CorvusCorax]

If the figure of 8 works, use it. If the food works, use it too
I think we humans can over-complicate things sometimes. Sometimes it's ok for a dog to experience a little pressure, if it means it breaks a behaviour or fixation and allows the focus to move back to you, and then you can reward them/move on with your training

 

[blackcob]

Coming to this a bit late and only with personal anecdotes but...

I loathe headcollars on principle - agree that I've seen some 'shut down' dogs and too many with a streaming eye where it's hoiked up in their face - but still used one for several months on a dog that I otherwise struggled to walk. It was enough to break the cycle, give me a chance to get the basics in and got relegated to the back of the drawer once it had done its job. Fine as a tool but ideally not as a sticking plaster, IMO.

Do the agility. Do iiiiit! The same dog that wore the headcollar was the dog that spent weeks on the periphery of an agility class practicing focus exercises with far-off distractions and half the contents of my fridge shoved under her nose, long before she was allowed anywhere near the paddock or a bit of kit. Now grade six with an agility warrant. Still only works for cocktail sausages.

 

[skinnydipper]

I am glad the figure of 8 is working for you. Many years ago I bought a Halti for an excitable terrier as a quick fix, she wanted to get everywhere yesterday and I was frightened she was going to damage her throat - she made herself cough when pulling against a collar. As soon as I put the Halti on her she changed from being a vibrant dog and became shutdown and flat, the change was dramatic and I did not persist with it.

I forgot to say (and I am getting worse with this as I get older) that she was a very smart dog and quickly learned to walk nicely on a flat collar. I had posted her photo on the "testing" thread.

 

[Clodagh]

I don’t understand reluctance to train with food, titbits, a toy or whatever else works. Rewarding an action teaches the dog when it’s doing something correctly, and paired with a marker word or clicker simplifies learning which is a big bonus when we don’t speak the same language.

I’m not particularly fond of headcollars, and most dogs I’ve seen wearing them seem to dislike them, but if they are a temporary measure while ongoing training takes place then I think they have their use.

My labs will not take titibts while they are working, you could wave anything under their noses and they will not take it, it is all about the retrieve. So the retreive is their reward. I tried treats with the spaniel but she won't take them either, she likes the ball but not as much as she likes rabbits! I have a rabbit skin ball now for high octane situations. So I agree whatever works, and I have learned not to dismiss treats for all dogs.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Yep. There's things I use food for because a ball will just send my dog nuts lol.

 

[Cahill]

i highly rate the SWAG headcollar.
it attaches behind the head.
this means you can swap walking sides without the lead being on the wrong side.
( i need a headcollar as we have a busy bit of rd to cross with no fp just outside)
i have tried a few but would never use any other now.

my dogs together weight the same as me but i can hold them both on one finger !

 

[Pearlsasinger]

We tried Haltis for our JRTs, they hated them and walked everywhere on their back legs, so they were self defeating. I have found the fig 8's very useful for the Rotters, Their neck shape means that they can back out of collar and lead arrangements, so they wear harnesses but, of course, they can drop their weight into their shoulders/chest and pull. They don't do that in the fig 8's. If the dog doesn't get on with one type of fig 8, it is worth trying different kinds. We have found that our two dogs prefer and react better to two different kinds of fig 8 lead, one more elastic than the other, one thicker than the other. As with a rope halter on a horse, the 'magic' lies in choosing the right halter and then using it well, the handler has to understand pressure and release and allow it to happen/use it instantly.

 

[Moobli]

My labs will not take titibts while they are working, you could wave anything under their noses and they will not take it, it is all about the retrieve. So the retreive is their reward. I tried treats with the spaniel but she won't take them either, she likes the ball but not as much as she likes rabbits! I have a rabbit skin ball now for high octane situations. So I agree whatever works, and I have learned not to dismiss treats for all dogs.

Absolutely! When the collies are training on sheep nothing compares - no amount of toys, treats or praise can measure up to being allowed to continue to work, so that is their reward.

 

[Kat_Bath]

Wow, thank you all for your replies!

I'm just in from work and now I've had a cuddle, I'm ready to sit down and have a read!

I can't work out how to do multiple quotes so my post count is about to go up!

 

[Kat_Bath]

I've worked out multi-quotes!!

I am glad the figure of 8 is working for you. Many years ago I bought a Halti for an excitable terrier as a quick fix, she wanted to get everywhere yesterday and I was frightened she was going to damage her throat - she made herself cough when pulling against a collar. As soon as I put the Halti on her she changed from being a vibrant dog and became shutdown and flat, the change was dramatic and I did not persist with it. I have noticed a similar demeanour in some other dogs wearing them, I see a lab who seems very subdued and miserable wearing his. I'll explain my theory about the pressure on the muzzle if you have the patience to keep reading.

For years I shared my home with 8 dogs which gave me plenty of opportunity to observe dog behaviour. Joe was "top dog" and usually a look from him would do but he occasionally gave a reprimand when he would take a dog across the top of its muzzle and hold it briefly. I felt the Halti had the same impact.

The trainer you have been in contact with sounds sensible, she wants to evaluate your dog before he disrupts one of her classes. If you are hesitant why not give yourself time to work with him and see how you go, if you get on top of things he may not need the 1 to 1.

Before you sign up for anything go along and see how she runs her class and make sure you are happy with it.

Agility seems a great way to train and bond with your dog.

We are forced to learn when we have to work through a problem. 9 of my dogs were rescues, a number of them had issues, and I learnt more from having dogs with problems than if I had just had "easy" dogs. My current (and now only dog) has been my biggest challenge.

I think the medical phrase "First do no harm" also applies to working with dogs.

Don't worry, you'll get there.

I agree with SD that a figure 8 has a similar effect to a twitch on a horse, but if you only use it as a training aid then what is the harm, they behave and it comes off, surely a good learning tool? (politely debating, SD, please don't get cross!)
I would do the agility and see how you get on, tbh I don't use treats routinely for training and find them of little use, but if they work then go for it.

Very interesting to read about your top dog reprimanding using (for want of a better word) the muzzle and the similarities between a figure of 8 and a muzzle - I can relate to that as a horsey person so that's easy for me to understand and think about.

Going along to her class sis also a really, really great suggestion - thank you. Again, I can relate to that thinking because I'd usually see a new instructor teach once or twice before booking.

So far, treats have been a great help. Although I have also been using cuddles and verbal praise as well. For example, this morning, we came across a dog and had to follow him a short way. With the help of a treat in hand as we saw the dog, he walked to heel, got the treat, stayed at heel and once we were round the corner away from the dog, he got lots of pats and praise and it was quite obvious he was extremely proud of himself! He was on the slip the whole time - I actually haven't used the figure of 8 this week. He is smart and a quick learner. I'm so pleased with the progress we've made this week. I just hope it continues!

I think I have decided to go and meet the trainer at a class and see how we get on. I'd love to do classes and agility and if it means doing a 1-2-1 then I'm up for that.

 

[Kat_Bath]

I don’t understand reluctance to train with food, titbits, a toy or whatever else works. Rewarding an action teaches the dog when it’s doing something correctly, and paired with a marker word or clicker simplifies learning which is a big bonus when we don’t speak the same language.

I’m not particularly fond of headcollars, and most dogs I’ve seen wearing them seem to dislike them, but if they are a temporary measure while ongoing training takes place then I think they have their use.

I've definitely changed my perspective on using treats. I think my worry was his weight but he's already lost nearly a kilo since coming to live with us and he's looking great!

The figure of 8 was/is most definitely a temporary measure. So far, it's worked brilliantly and I say that having not used it at all this week. It's nice that he's walking correctly on the slip as well so I have a lot to thank HHO for!

My labs will not take titibts while they are working, you could wave anything under their noses and they will not take it, it is all about the retrieve. So the retreive is their reward. I tried treats with the spaniel but she won't take them either, she likes the ball but not as much as she likes rabbits! I have a rabbit skin ball now for high octane situations. So I agree whatever works, and I have learned not to dismiss treats for all dogs.

I'm really glad I posted as it has changed my perspective about food.

 

[Kat_Bath]

If the figure of 8 works, use it. If the food works, use it too
I think we humans can over-complicate things sometimes. Sometimes it's ok for a dog to experience a little pressure, if it means it breaks a behaviour or fixation and allows the focus to move back to you, and then you can reward them/move on with your training

I am a massive over-thinker - I can't even begin to tell you how much I think and research!

Focusing on us has been a big thing and I think that's been the biggest question we've asked him - he's responded so well though. It's really helped to think of it like that instead of just wishing he didn't pull towards other dogs.

 

[Kat_Bath]

Coming to this a bit late and only with personal anecdotes but...

I loathe headcollars on principle - agree that I've seen some 'shut down' dogs and too many with a streaming eye where it's hoiked up in their face - but still used one for several months on a dog that I otherwise struggled to walk. It was enough to break the cycle, give me a chance to get the basics in and got relegated to the back of the drawer once it had done its job. Fine as a tool but ideally not as a sticking plaster, IMO.

Do the agility. Do iiiiit! The same dog that wore the headcollar was the dog that spent weeks on the periphery of an agility class practicing focus exercises with far-off distractions and half the contents of my fridge shoved under her nose, long before she was allowed anywhere near the paddock or a bit of kit. Now grade six with an agility warrant. Still only works for cocktail sausages.

I was definitely worried that anything we tried would become a permenant fixture but so far, so good and it's quite a relief.

It's been really good to work with him on just the slip but know we have a back up of slipping it over his nose. It's also been great to think about fixations and behaviour and I think thinking about that has meant we haven't really used the figure of 8 nearly as much as we could have done because I don't want to take short cuts. It's also made walks quite fun actually - a lot more chatting and sort of playing (not a good word but I hope you all know what I mean)!

I really really really want to try agility as I think it would be a lot of fun for him and he would love it!

 

[Kat_Bath]

i highly rate the SWAG headcollar.
it attaches behind the head.
this means you can swap walking sides without the lead being on the wrong side.
( i need a headcollar as we have a busy bit of rd to cross with no fp just outside)
i have tried a few but would never use any other now.

my dogs together weight the same as me but i can hold them both on one finger !

We tried Haltis for our JRTs, they hated them and walked everywhere on their back legs, so they were self defeating. I have found the fig 8's very useful for the Rotters, Their neck shape means that they can back out of collar and lead arrangements, so they wear harnesses but, of course, they can drop their weight into their shoulders/chest and pull. They don't do that in the fig 8's. If the dog doesn't get on with one type of fig 8, it is worth trying different kinds. We have found that our two dogs prefer and react better to two different kinds of fig 8 lead, one more elastic than the other, one thicker than the other. As with a rope halter on a horse, the 'magic' lies in choosing the right halter and then using it well, the handler has to understand pressure and release and allow it to happen/use it instantly.

It's good to hear about the different types and to think of it in a horsey context. The only downside to using our slip as a figure of 8 is that it is quite thick. The upside to that though, is that it sits loosely most of the time because it can't grip on itself. It has changed my perspective though and if ever I feel a head collar might be useful a bit more, I'll look in to getting something that may suit him a bit more but hopefully not.

 

[Kat_Bath]

I forgot to say (and I am getting worse with this as I get older) that she was a very smart dog and quickly learned to walk nicely on a flat collar. I had posted her photo on the "testing" thread.

I'm actually wondering if, at some point, we should try walking off his collar. Something to work towards. We're waiting for a delivery of a lovely leather collar - I'm more excited than he is though 😂

 

[Kat_Bath]

In other news, since we changed him to Millies, his poos have become significantly smaller (one small hand instead of two hands pick up)! I'm delighted!

Thanks again to all of you for your input and support - I can't thank you all enough 😘

 

[skinnydipper]

I've worked out multi-quotes!!





Very interesting to read about your top dog reprimanding using (for want of a better word) the muzzle and the similarities between a figure of 8 and a muzzle - I can relate to that as a horsey person so that's easy for me to understand and think about.

.

Sorry, it may have been clearer if I had said he took hold of them across the top of their nose. I believe bitches sometimes do it to their pups as a reprimand.

 

[Kat_Bath]

Sorry, it may have been clearer if I had said he took hold of them across the top of their nose. I believe bitches sometimes do it to their pups as a reprimand.

Don't worry, I knew what you meant - I just couldn't think of how to say what I wanted!

 

[Annette4]

As you will have no doubt seen, Dobby walks on a head collar most of the time. He’s a long running work in progress with a lot of aspects (and I’m never having something with Saluki in it again ) but for now I’d rather harness = fun/Flyball and head collar = loose lead walking to heel. He can walk on a slip lead (can’t find a none leather sighthound flat collar) but it’s not consistent enough for my back to cope with so we’re working on it.

I switch between treats and toys for mine, Fizz is much more of a foodie but Dobby will often choose a game of tug/fetch over a treat so they get what they prize most.

 

[Kat_Bath]

As you will have no doubt seen, Dobby walks on a head collar most of the time. He’s a long running work in progress with a lot of aspects (and I’m never having something with Saluki in it again ) but for now I’d rather harness = fun/Flyball and head collar = loose lead walking to heel. He can walk on a slip lead (can’t find a none leather sighthound flat collar) but it’s not consistent enough for my back to cope with so we’re working on it.

I switch between treats and toys for mine, Fizz is much more of a foodie but Dobby will often choose a game of tug/fetch over a treat so they get what they prize most.

Ooo, good to know that works for you because I was going to do harness = out and about and slip = walks from home at heel.

I wish Dobby and Harvey could be real life friends - they'd have so much fun!

 

[npage123]

Very interesting thread to read