Mare hates chiro - needs pelvis adjusting...

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Sprat

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A WWYD - My mare absolutely despises chiropractic work. She just goes through the roof, she is a very sensitive little thing (I think this stemmed from an incident a couple of years ago when she received a very rough treatment by someone I wouldn't use again). She loves the physio, and gets seen every 3 months. Physio has said that she is crooked, but cannot do anything regards to adjustments.

My dilemma is this; she has an obvious tilt through her pelvis and it does need adjustment. It is affecting her way of going, and she is not coming through properly behind (not lame, but definitely not as free.)

How would you go about dealing with this? I expect that she will allow the chiro to make one adjustment (if you catch her off guard, which isn't very nice), but she will then not allow that person close to her again.

Has anyone else experienced this? If so, how did you deal with it? Sedation? A different form of treatment?
 
I have never had a physio unable to adjust the pelvis although if regular treatment is required I would be looking into it further rather than continuing with physio/ chiro, if they are not maintaining the improvement after one/two treatments at which point they should be referred back to the vet.
 
I’d discuss it with a good Chiro and might be inclined to sedate once in order to have a good try. In general though, if that doesn’t sort it and physio isn’t making a big enough of a difference then I think I’d look to get the vet involved.

My current horse had his first ever Chiro session the other day. He doesn’t over react and is a good boy, but you could tell he was very worried about ‘being hit’ as he saw it! Very wobbly bottom lip poor love 😔
 
Can you get a chiro or osteo out who is also a vet? They can sedate then if they need to, but will also assess to see if they agree with the physio's view.

If you give location then someone might be able to recommend a local vet.
 
Yes that’s not a bad idea actually. I’m in Warwickshire so if anyone has any recommendations please feel free to fire them my way.

Ihatework, bless him, I hope he wasn’t too traumatised?
 
Does your chiro happen to know acupuncture? My chiro is a vet who is certified in acupuncture. if she can't massage the horse into relaxing for a sacral or pelvic adjusmemt, she will acupuncture him and it works like a charm:)
 
Frankly, in my view 'adjusting' the pelvis would take a well educated muscle man. What are they meant to be 'adjusting'? I've never managed to get a sensible answer to that from chiros - my very good physio snorts and looks for signs of sacro-iliac strain or arthritis. It's a bit like the vet who told a friend her mares 2/10ths lame was due to 'a detached suspensory'! If there is a pelvic dislocation - perhaps a subluxation of the sacro-iliac joint - then it needs a good orthopaedic vet.
 
JanetGeorge said:
Frankly, in my view 'adjusting' the pelvis would take a well educated muscle man. What are they meant to be 'adjusting'? I've never managed to get a sensible answer to that from chiros - my very good physio snorts and looks for signs of sacro-iliac strain or arthritis. It's a bit like the vet who told a friend her mares 2/10ths lame was due to 'a detached suspensory'! If there is a pelvic dislocation - perhaps a subluxation of the sacro-iliac joint - then it needs a good orthopaedic vet.
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I have no idea what exactly needs adjusting, I'm not a chiropractor nor vet, however my physio says similar to yours regarding pelvic adjustment. I do believe that something isn't right, and I think a good chiro is the way to go.

I have put a call into my vet this afternoon and I'm waiting on a call back to discuss the idea of sedation initially, however I'm open to their ideas.
 
Worthy trying to find a vet chiro who uses the more subtle techniques than the ones who do the more dramatic stuff. My horse would not tolerate the leg waving, bone crunching variety of chiro, but he is very happy with my vets chiro technique, where the adjustments are carried out at close quarters, with minimal movement. It's really changed him for the better - so worth doing, if you can find the right practitioner
 
Auslander said:
Worthy trying to find a vet chiro who uses the more subtle techniques than the ones who do the more dramatic stuff. My horse would not tolerate the leg waving, bone crunching variety of chiro, but he is very happy with my vets chiro technique, where the adjustments are carried out at close quarters, with minimal movement. It's really changed him for the better - so worth doing, if you can find the right practitioner
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It was your vet I was thinking of if the OP had been in the area. She's got a nice way with horses.
 
Sprat said:
I have no idea what exactly needs adjusting, I'm not a chiropractor nor vet, however my physio says similar to yours regarding pelvic adjustment. I do believe that something isn't right, and I think a good chiro is the way to go.

I have put a call into my vet this afternoon and I'm waiting on a call back to discuss the idea of sedation initially, however I'm open to their ideas.
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Sprat, sorry - but you're a bit bonkers. A chiro cannot 'adjust the pelvis' - and unless mare is hobbling and hardly able to move it is NOT a dislocation or sub-luxation of the sacro-iliac. And there's nothing else in the pelvis that it could be other than a fracture - or severe arthritis. It is far more likely it is muscular - which is for a physio. And yes, a decent physio CAN correct a horse who is 'crooked' - my physio has straightened several of mine who had been 'crooked' after a fall in the field. It has always required follow-up massage/exercises from us to get the good result we're had.

IF there is anything 'wrong' with the pelvis the only accurate way of diagnosing it is a vet with ultra-sound (x-rays that can come to you aren't deep enough.) And you should start with the vet anyway - the last crooked, slightly lame horse I had in to 'fix' had lived with hind gut ulcers that were persistent enough to turn her into a bucking bronco and scare the owners enough that they just wanted rid. It took less than 3 months to cure her ulcers, teach her to use her right hind properly (so she wasn't lame) and ind a good, intelligent new owner for her. And yes, I also had the physio and the EDT check her out - the physio gave back and muscles the all clear except for weak muscles and reluctance to use the right hind - due to the ulcers!

Far too many chiros - for both people - and horses - are cowboys who talk baloney! No wonder your mare doesn't like chiro - she's a smart girl.
 
Fiona Elliott, Hook Norton vets. She is a qualified vet but only works part time due to her children; she is also a qualified chiro and acupunturist. Recommended. Used to working with high level (Olympic) athletes...including her own!
 
JanetGeorge said:
Sprat, sorry - but you're a bit bonkers. A chiro cannot 'adjust the pelvis' - and unless mare is hobbling and hardly able to move it is NOT a dislocation or sub-luxation of the sacro-iliac. And there's nothing else in the pelvis that it could be other than a fracture - or severe arthritis. It is far more likely it is muscular - which is for a physio. And yes, a decent physio CAN correct a horse who is 'crooked' - my physio has straightened several of mine who had been 'crooked' after a fall in the field. It has always required follow-up massage/exercises from us to get the good result we're had.

IF there is anything 'wrong' with the pelvis the only accurate way of diagnosing it is a vet with ultra-sound (x-rays that can come to you aren't deep enough.) And you should start with the vet anyway - the last crooked, slightly lame horse I had in to 'fix' had lived with hind gut ulcers that were persistent enough to turn her into a bucking bronco and scare the owners enough that they just wanted rid. It took less than 3 months to cure her ulcers, teach her to use her right hind properly (so she wasn't lame) and ind a good, intelligent new owner for her. And yes, I also had the physio and the EDT check her out - the physio gave back and muscles the all clear except for weak muscles and reluctance to use the right hind - due to the ulcers!

Far too many chiros - for both people - and horses - are cowboys who talk baloney! No wonder your mare doesn't like chiro - she's a smart girl.
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I stupidly assumed that everyone understood what this meant. clearly not! Of course they dont actually adjust the pelvis itself, but that is the easiest way to describe how people see the end result.

My physio is very good but she will quickly say when something needs an adjustment she cant do. The same as the human physio I saw actually thinking about it. Nothing he did fixed the issues as I was fundamentally crooked. The osteo dramtically changed my life for the better.

And as suggested above by almost everyone, there are lots of chiro/osteo vets who are doing amazing work. The one I use is particularly hot on hindgut ulcers coincidentally.
 
JanetGeorge said:
Sprat, sorry - but you're a bit bonkers. A chiro cannot 'adjust the pelvis' - and unless mare is hobbling and hardly able to move it is NOT a dislocation or sub-luxation of the sacro-iliac. And there's nothing else in the pelvis that it could be other than a fracture - or severe arthritis. It is far more likely it is muscular - which is for a physio. And yes, a decent physio CAN correct a horse who is 'crooked' - my physio has straightened several of mine who had been 'crooked' after a fall in the field. It has always required follow-up massage/exercises from us to get the good result we're had.

IF there is anything 'wrong' with the pelvis the only accurate way of diagnosing it is a vet with ultra-sound (x-rays that can come to you aren't deep enough.) And you should start with the vet anyway - the last crooked, slightly lame horse I had in to 'fix' had lived with hind gut ulcers that were persistent enough to turn her into a bucking bronco and scare the owners enough that they just wanted rid. It took less than 3 months to cure her ulcers, teach her to use her right hind properly (so she wasn't lame) and ind a good, intelligent new owner for her. And yes, I also had the physio and the EDT check her out - the physio gave back and muscles the all clear except for weak muscles and reluctance to use the right hind - due to the ulcers!

Far too many chiros - for both people - and horses - are cowboys who talk baloney! No wonder your mare doesn't like chiro - she's a smart girl.
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I am assuming pelvis as that’s what it looks like to my untrained eye. I have no idea what is actually wrong, which is why I’m in discussions with vet and Chiro. I’m just trying to do the right thing by my mare, I’m not sure the name calling was entirely called for.
 
gunnergundog said:
Fiona Elliott, Hook Norton vets. She is a qualified vet but only works part time due to her children; she is also a qualified chiro and acupunturist. Recommended. Used to working with high level (Olympic) athletes...including her own!
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I use another high powered vet, formerly based at Leahurst, who has now trained in chiropractic and acupuncture. She, too, works part time due to a young family. She is brilliant.
Physio, chiro, osteo - all can bring something to the table. Except for me, the physio was useless on my back!
 
Having used a chiro once for myself, i'm with your horse. Horrible experience, I thought I was having my head ripped off. I actually found it quite frightening. I use a well qualified physio, my horses have all loved her working on them, even when they have been quite sore. The late Bisto sustained a field injury and his pelvis was clearly not level and he didn't want to walk out let alone trot. She sorted him quite easily and I'll not forget the look of relief on his face. Richard Maxwell is also amazing, I think he does the Masterson technique or some such thing.
 
Leo Walker said:
I stupidly assumed that everyone understood what this meant. clearly not! Of course they dont actually adjust the pelvis itself, but that is the easiest way to describe how people see the end result.

My physio is very good but she will quickly say when something needs an adjustment she cant do. The same as the human physio I saw actually thinking about it. Nothing he did fixed the issues as I was fundamentally crooked. The osteo dramtically changed my life for the better.

And as suggested above by almost everyone, there are lots of chiro/osteo vets who are doing amazing work. The one I use is particularly hot on hindgut ulcers coincidentally.
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lol, to assume people understand what something means when it doesn't mean anything is a bit stupid, I'm afraid. Talking in basic English is much better! Because I can give you DOZENS of problems I have seen that have ALL resulted in a horse 'going crooked' - less than half of them having anything to do with the pelvis - and even fewer being things any sort of chiro treatment could 'fix'.
 
Sprat said:
I am assuming pelvis as that’s what it looks like to my untrained eye. I have no idea what is actually wrong, which is why I’m in discussions with vet and Chiro. I’m just trying to do the right thing by my mare, I’m not sure the name calling was entirely called for.
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Gee, Sprat - I'm sorry that you thought I was name calling. But assuming ANYTHING with an untrained eye IS bonkers - particularly when you decide it needs a treatment your mare has made clear she doesn't like at all! And your discussion with your vet which only took place this evening - was it a 'discussion' - or just a request for doping your horse for treatment your untrained eye had decided was needed. That IS a bit bonkers.

I would GUESS my eye is a little more experienced than yours (unless you've owned horses for 60+ years, and worked professionally with them for close on 50 years.) I couldn't tell you how many times I've had sessions with vets and physios trying to find an answer to a horse being 'crooked', or not going forward properly, or being 1-2/10ths lame behind. VETS can make an educated guess on what the problem is - and how to treat it. Sometimes they can't, even after x-rays! But they stand a better chance than an owner or a chiro! THAT is the place to start. Although if the only problem is the horse being 'crooked', a good trainer could watch you riding it and tell you if it appears to be horse - or rider error. As two of my staff ride young horses, I watch pretty closely to see if a horse is not 'right', is it that rider - or is it the same with both riders. A few suggestions, and if they don't work - then vet or physio called in.

Um - and if you don't like the answers - perhaps be careful about the question. It was a WWYD post. But I guess you just wanted people to agree with you.
 
JanetGeorge said:
Um - and if you don't like the answers - perhaps be careful about the question. It was a WWYD post. But I guess you just wanted people to agree with you.
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Yes it was. It probably didnt warrant you banging on about your vastly experienced eye and using such a condescending and belittling tone though.

Each to their own though. I am quite happy to whole heartedly recommend the 2 osteo vets I have used. Both of whom fixed my horse when conventional vets didnt even know where to start.
 
I appreciate your experienced input JG, I shall take everything you have said on board and act accordingly, in the meantime I shall flog myself for asking such silly questions.

Thanks everyone else for your recommendations, much appreciated and some good people to start to talk too (once I have consulted my vet again, of course 🙃)
 
Sprat said:
I appreciate your experienced input JG, I shall take everything you have said on board and act accordingly, in the meantime I shall flog myself for asking such silly questions.

Thanks everyone else for your recommendations, much appreciated and some good people to start to talk too (once I have consulted my vet again, of course 🙃)
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lol, it wasn't THAT silly a question as ruddy chiros talk rubbish as part of their 'sell' and totally mislead owners about what they can do. And the day you don't think up another question - or SEE something 'new' - that's probably the day you should quit (or that's what I tell myself when I find myself thinking: I SHOULD know what the heck THAT is.) I didn't know what the heck a little lump I found on a youngster's ear was - with pus coming out. I felt better when my vet didn't either, lol. It was 'tooth in ear' - a dentigerous cyst. They're moderately rare - in people too (although people usually get them in the jaw bone - which makes a bit more sense.) While researching them, I found a case of a horse that had multiple dentigerous cysts - early symptoms were lethargy and becoming harder for it to bend to the right. When they tried to remove them, there was compression on the cerebrum and they were in close proximity to the temporomandibular joint. Poor thing had to be pts because of the damage done by them. Fortunately, my chap just had one - in the 'right' place and he was fine after removal. But I STILL find myself watching him like a hawk in case there are more. Of course, started backing him and he WOULDN'T keep his tongue under the bit - EDT finally found misplaced wolf teeth inside the lower 6's. That is rare too, lol. You just keep on looking and learning.
 
"Out" means out of alignment not out of the socket. The skeleton is held in place by ligaments, tendons and muscles. The skeleton is out (of alignment) when, for example, there is muscle damage, atrophy and/or a contracted muscle.

Chiro (certainly McTimoney-Corely) use...I know I'm going to get this wrong so feel free to correct me... high velocity low leverage (?? Its been 11yrs since I trained (don't practice!)) movements that "shock" the muscles back into the correct place. Go with me on this...

However when it is deep and/or a major skeletal area ie pelvis it can be hard to "access" it due to contracted/damaged muscle surrounding the area. Many of the McT-C practitioners that I knew also trained in sports massage so that they could soften the area for deeper penetration and better access.

Again physio, more so the equipment they use rather than hands on, should be able to penetrate deeper than chiro and correct whatever is holding the pelvis out of alignment.

It maybe that chiro is quicker as is once they "get in" and treat it it's one and done whereas, generally speaking, to right an area via physio and massage is often a course of treatments.

If your horse is ok with physio could they work with chiro? Physio does initial work and softens area to let chiro "access" it? Horse might be relaxed from physio and chiro not hurt as much if not going in cold, so to speak.

Dont think it was a silly question at all. I've trained McT-C and EBW alongside vets, human physios and osteos and been trained by chiros and osteos yet still no one has ever answered me what the difference(s) between osteo and chiro is/are. The average horse owner can be forgiven for not knowing the intricacies of each field I'd reckon!
 
Thanks for the reply TPO, makes a lot of sense. Physio agreed that Chiro can work but will also need the muscle to be strong enough to ‘hold’ the adjustment in place. She has become a lot stronger through her back end in the last 6 months or so, hopefully this should help. Mare sees a physio every 3 months regardless as I’m a bit anal with this sort of thing. I’ve discussed with the vets (who have previously done lameness work ups and back xrays - no issues found, just weakness. This was spring last year) and vet agrees that a Chiro (mctimmoney) session would be beneficial, albeit under sedation so as to reduce any worry on the mare.

I try my best to be as well read on these things as possible, however I am not a qualified professional and so rely on the say so of the pros to lead us to where we need to be.

As an aside to all of the above, the mare isn’t horrendous at all. The concerns I have stem from a sticky left canter trans where she doesn’t bring her left hind underneath as well as the right. But I would like to nip this in the bud sooner rather than later.
 
From a wonky point of view I’ve found there has been more difference between practitioners than between their titles.

A colleague takes the piss out of chiros relentlessly. One day I will snap and point out what living with chronic pain is like and how hopeless ‘mainstream’ medicine can be. :p

I’m not sure why JG keeps shouting.
 
That makes perfect sense. I cant remember what I've already posted (battery died half way through first attempt to reply) but the "homework" after the session is important and the reason your physio has given is exactly why.

My mum bought an Arab in the mid-late 90s that was "wonky". Horse had competed in racing, eventing and dressage to medium level. She'd gotten a fright out hacking and been "chased" by a lorry resulting in her going over a gate and tack getting tangled resulting in a heavy fall. She was turned away and mum bought her not long after she was brought back into work.

Long story short she was always "not quite right" but nothing definitive. Mum had countless vets, physios, an overnight stay in vet school for a full work up and got a saddle made to measure. Every time it was a clean bill of health. Shiraz would crouch her back end and walk like something out of Star Wars every time she was mounted yet thr professionals all said it was because she was a sensitive (nutty!) Chestnut, Arab mare...

I ended up taking her on in 2004. A friend of a friend was a MCT-C but was looking for Guinea pigs for her EBW qualification. She spotted straight away that Shiraz was seriously out of alignment. If you stood behind her and put palms on her point of hip/tuber coxae the right side was higher and further forward (towards her head) and left was lower and closer to her tail. THE most obvious thing ever one it was pointed out...

There was an immediate improvement after her first session of McT-C and just shy of 6mths of sessions, groundwork, polework, hacking and a new saddle and she was practically level after years of being "out" so it does work!

The McT-C I was taught was all short, sharp movements and quick thrusts. A good practitioner was in and out before the horse really knew what was going on. I've certainly heard horror stories about some brutal chiro sessions but that's certainly not my experience of McT-C

It sounds like yoire doing the best by your horse and addressing things before they become a major issue. I hope it all goes well and that you keep us posted
 
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