Mare is officially retired, down to 3 stallions, opinions?

Have you looked at Sir Shutterfly, we had two foals by him in 2009. both lovely foals, with beautiful characters and they both jump for fun. One was graded Elite event foal and First Premium showjump foal in the BEF futurity competition. Sir Shutterfly has plenty of blood for producing event types, moves well and obviously has a very good jump If it helps I can PM some pics of our foals.
 
Having watch the video of Jigilo, he looks fantastic. Has a great gallop and jump and is actually quite light.

What happened to Contis? He looks very athletic, and typey with good movement and his BE record isn't bad for his age?

It is so difficult making a decision on potential sire, but dont think you can go far wrong with any on the list.
 
I don't know much at all about the other sires mentioned but Jigilo has produced a lovely horse for us. The mare had a rather hot temp and her filly by Jigilo is really chilled out but intelligent with it. Very keen to learn and wants to be with you. A complete difference to her mother who could be a nightmare to catch and certainly had her own ideas about life!

The mare was a a big clunking hunter type (though she could really shift and had endless scope for jumping) who lacked in quality and had 11" bone. Her Jigilo is much more refined and looked almost like a TB foal. She has filled out some but is going to be nowhere near as enormous as her mother.

Mare is 17.1 and Jigilo filly is just a fraction under 16hh at 2yo. She is much much more quality and much more trainable than her 4yo half brother by Rebelara, an ID stallion.

Basically Jigilo certainly passed enough 'blood' on to improve our mare.

Hope this info may be of some use for you.
 
volatis said:
Kerilli - Graf sure looked a difficult ride at hartbury, for a horse that has a far amount of experience under his belt he was a nappy sod that day. I didnt see him at the Expo so cant comment on that outing.

Axis is definatly a jumper who happens to do dressage very well, rather than bred for out and out dressage, and from a sire line that produces internationel eventers and GP show jumpers. And Axis has twice now produced the top jumper at the Neumunster licensing - so Ken, sorry harriet, is wrong to label him a dressage horse.
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Volatis really knows her stuff - and has no vested interest in any of the stallions she recommends - so I would take her advice on Axis!
 
htobago said:
Volatis really knows her stuff - and has no vested interest in any of the stallions she recommends - so I would take her advice on Axis!
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ditto^^^ but being nosey and a tb (well 7/8ths) owner, when you said you wanted plenty of blood why you havent got a pure tb in your list
 
Axis sounds lovely on paper, but he has really poor conformation, and I'm sorry, whatever anyone says about him being a champion stallion or whatnot, to breed a horse for a good level of eventing youv'e simply have to choose a stallion that is very strongly made with correct limbs, it is so so hard to keep a horse sound enough to move up the grades in eventing,and IMO you have to be assured of strong conformation from the very start. Axis has a weak topline and a poor backend combined with long pasterns. Unless the camera is lying in all the conformation pics of him

Cristobel's been sold twice and he's still young, once by Darren Chicachia and once again when he was in England, could mean something's up or could just have been circumstances.

Jigolo's lovely, but he's out of a racehorse mare that was pulled up 6 times in point to point races...even the most crippled racehorse is usually at least able to finish in their point to points.

Sorry but just my opinion :( I personally like Grafenstolz- now thats a sound and tough horse, evented to a high level at a young age and now winning advanced dressage. Or Fleetwater Opposition.

I just think the most important things when choosing a event stallion are soundness and toughness which has been proven by a long and successfull career, then a strong conformation with good limbs and feet, and thirdly, a good dam line that has produced the goods in each generation.
 
You have very strong opinions seabiscuit! I will defend Axis as there is no way he has got poor conformation. If you wish to dismiss the grading as worthless fine but you can't dismiss his competition record. A horse with poor conformation does not get to Grand Prix dressage and he's not only training at GP, he is competing and winning internationally with no soundness issues.

I really think it is important to be 100% sure of your facts before you diss a stallion as hard as you have done. It can start rumours and damage the stallion's reputation unneccesarily.

You can see conformation photos of Axis here and judge for yourself:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/axis2
http://www.trakehners.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=41&Itemid=576
 
I have two full tbs both with robellino as a grand sire and they both jump for england and careful with it (probably a reason that one of them didn't do very well racing - showjumped all the hurdles :) ) . The older ones flatwork is pretty good and still improving and the younger one although only 3 does a mean extended trot round the field. I don't know how accessibe his line is in this country as he is now deceased and my older tb was imported from the states but I have been impressed with them both. At a recent qualifier the judge thought one of mine was a warmblood because of the way he moved.
 
I'm sorry stolensilver, but neither those two pictures you posted of Axis show a horse with good conformation- you cant deny that , and no, I dont understand how he got graded well on his conformation.I am not denying that he cant move and jump, yes he is wonderfull from that point of view. Soundness wise-keeping a horse sound for grand prix dressage is a completly different ball game than keeping something sound for eventing!!!

Surely you can appreciate that to produce an eventer you HAVE to use a stallion that is strongly made with good confo- it might not matter so much if you were looking to produce something for dressage or showjumping....if axiz really was so perfect surely he wouldve been used on lots of advanced event mares by now??
 
We clearly have different opinions on what shape a horse should be. I love the way Axis is put together, so much so that he's on a shortlist of two to put to my PSG dressage/ clears 5'6" mare. Stallions who have the paces for dressage and a big jump are as rare as hen's teeth and IMO Axis is an absolute diamond.

I don't think he's been used on many good event mares in the UK yet because he's not been marketed. How many UK breeders have even heard of him?! If you haven't heard of him you aren't going to use him are you?
 
toomanyhorses26 said:
I have two full tbs both with robellino as a grand sire and they both jump for england and careful with it (probably a reason that one of them didn't do very well racing - showjumped all the hurdles :) ) . The older ones flatwork is pretty good and still improving and the younger one although only 3 does a mean extended trot round the field. I don't know how accessibe his line is in this country as he is now deceased and my older tb was imported from the states but I have been impressed with them both. At a recent qualifier the judge thought one of mine was a warmblood because of the way he moved.
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Robellino still has a few sons listed at stud. Two in Ireland and one in France

Jammaal
Quws

France
Tot Ou tard

I don't know anything about them, but Quws is out of a mare by Rainbow Quest and he is well known as a source of unsoundness.

Robellino's most well known son was Mister Baileys, and although he is also dead he should still have plenty of daughters around. He also evented a bit and hunted after becoming infertile at stud.
 
Isn't Cristobal still owned in partnership with Darren Chicachia?? As far as I was aware he was owned by a syndicate....of which Darren was a member....
 
Seabiscuit is right- it's not about the 'shape' of the horse, in this case it's about his limb conformation which is not great. He actually looks hideously upright in his front pasterns in the allbreed pic and he stands right over himself. He piaffes how he stands- on the forehand.
 
I disagree. He's very young to be doing GP and he is triangulating in the piaffe: getting his hind legs too far under his weight. Its a common fault and it is a strength issue. As he gets stronger he will be able to do piaffe with his hind legs further behind him and sit more. Having said that he's still got a better piaffe than many other horses. Also bear in mind the video was at a stallion show with a crazy atmosphere and he definitely isn't showing his best paces in it.
 
Hang on, one of you is saying he has long pasterns, and the other saying they are short and upright. Thye clearly cant be both so which one of you is wrong?
And as for saying he has a weak topline, what???? You do realise in the photo of him stood up against the wall he was 2 1/2. And there is no way he has a weak topline.

here is a photo of a daughter of his, aged 2 1/2, who has just won the free jumping class at the breed show, with German judges who specialise in this type of class, who raved about her scope and athletic ability. She was also judged Elite at the futurity as an eventer as a 3yo, second highest score for eventers across the country
 
One of the things I particularly like about Axis are his quarters and the way he is able to reach under his body with his hind legs. He also has a superb shoulder angle and a long humerus giving him lots of reach and expression with his front legs. He's a lovely stallion and IMO his conformation is excellent. As I said before horses with poor conformation, especially behind, do not stay sound enough to get to GP dressage. The number of horses that break down with hind suspensory injuries in upper level dressage is frightening. That's why the insurance premiums on upper level dressage are similar to eventing. Its hard work and it takes a horse with correct angles and strong soft tissues which is even more important but not as easy to assess as the angles between the bones which is what we usually think about when talking conformation.
 
volatis said:
Hang on, one of you is saying he has long pasterns, and the other saying they are short and upright. Thye clearly cant be both so which one of you is wrong?
And as for saying he has a weak topline, what???? You do realise in the photo of him stood up against the wall he was 2 1/2. And there is no way he has a weak topline.
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LOL! Well said Volatis. I think people underestimate how tough Grand Prix dressage is and how well put together a horse has to be to get there. Added to the equation is Axis' proven record of passing on outstanding jump, that his sire was an international showjumper and he has a very strong damline. Just because people haven't heard of him does not mean he isn't an outstanding stallion. How many stallions are there that have a CV as strong as Axis?
 
His pasterns are not only upright, they are also long and upright- a diasatarous combination!! Both pictures show a poor back end and a straight hind leg. Both pics also show that he is very upright in the shoulder. We will have to agree to disagree on this.
Yes his daughter is beautifull and is virtually correct in herself- so much better than her father!! She must be out of a very strongly made mare.
 
stolensilver said:
I don't think he's been used on many good event mares in the UK yet because he's not been marketed. How many UK breeders have even heard of him?! If you haven't heard of him you aren't going to use him are you?
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Event breeders certainly do not need horses advertised right in front of them until they are blue in the face . They are certainly more than aware of any good potential event stallions out there!!
 
seabiscuit said:
Event breeders certainly do not need horses advertised right in front of them until they are blue in the face . They are certainly more than aware of any good potential event stallions out there!!
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Really? How many event breeders even considered warmbloods until very recently? And how many people have heard of Axis before this thread? He's not advertised in the UK.
 
I think we will have to agree to disagree as I cant see the weaknesses you describe seabiscuit and I know stolensilver is an excellent judge of a horse and a very serious amateur dressage rider so afraid I have to agree with her.

And I think you comment about event breeders being aware of any potnetial event sires, sorry thats rubbish - there are so many stallions out there, no one can be aware of all of them
 
I am not even going to bother to answer that question stolensilver, because british event breeders know exactly what they are doing when it comes to breeding the very best event horses in the world:)
 
seabiscuit said:
I am not even going to bother to answer that question stolensilver, because british event breeders know exactly what they are doing when it comes to breeding the very best event horses in the world:)
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I won't argue with the record of event breeding in the UK and Ireland but I do question your eye for a horse. I don't want to be confrontational but what you are saying you can see simply is not there.
 
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